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mjosparky

The death of Skydiving

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I'm guessing that there are lots of people who jump with a club DZ wondering what this is all about..... "Bring back the static line?" It never left did it? "A dropzone was just a field with a C182" Yes, and a trailer set off to the side..... right?

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

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I'm guessing that there are lots of people who jump with a club DZ wondering what this is all about..... "Bring back the static line?" It never left did it? "A dropzone was just a field with a C182" Yes, and a trailer set off to the side..... right?



Thanks for reading my mind.:D

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How did I know when I opened this thread it would be another "tandems are killing our sport thread." I did 22 tandems this past weekend and maybe 2 of them had even the slightest bit of interest in learning to skydive on their own. Most of them wouldn't have even unfastened their seat belt had I not been whispering encouragement in their ear.

If lack of long tandem instruction is why they don't come back, then how come so many solo students that do receive a full day of training never come back?

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I'm guessing that there are lots of people who jump with a club DZ wondering what this is all about..... "Bring back the static line?" It never left did it? "A dropzone was just a field with a C182" Yes, and a trailer set off to the side..... right?



A trailer:o

You were spoiled. We had one tree and loved the DZ.

Jumping in Ks is not a seasonal sport:)

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Hi Sparky

I see a couple of issues with your thread.

1) You are not offering any solutions – but unfortunately I don’t have any easy ones either.

2) I see the “entitlement generation” you speak of as just an extension of society as a whole. Just look around you and you see the same behavior on the roads, in the schools and or in the business community. We live in a "me me" instant gratification world.

Now I sure as hell want to continue jumping well into my old age. But I am seeing a downward trend in my own jumping and the only way to counteract this trend is when getting to the dropzones is convenient, fun and affordable. When we have to drive hours and hours just to get to the dropzone and we don’t know if we will even be able to get on some loads due to shitty weather or a DZ which caters to tandems or specialize students and shuns other types of jumpers, well it’s easy to stay at home and do something else. Related to this, the dropzone environment must be fun. If it is not, well it’s easier to stay at home and do some other fun things. Finally it must be affordable. If we are looking at spending time and tons of money at a place that is not fun, well … you get the picture. But unfortunately anything related to aviation is going to be expensive. The DZs are not in business to lose money. If we as skydivers want this sport to be here in the future we all need to make it more convenient, more fun and affordable. It’s up to the DZOs, their staff, the competitive skydivers and fun jumpers to save the sport. It’s a collective effort. In some parts of the world skydiving is growing ... in other parts it is going the other way.



Hi Canuck

Congrats Bingo!!!!!

People it's all about the vibes:o

Either its there or its not. The vibes at a DZ aren't going to change due to whining:o but if you vote with your feet and stop by once in a while you might be surprised to find out the vibes have actually changed.

How long can it take for the vibes at a DZ to change?
could be years. But Mr T said "the sky's not going anywhere".

You can always go back when/if the vibes suit you.

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People don't want static lines. The DZO's dont want it because it does not generate enough money. The Jumpmasters don't want it because it does not generate enough money and not enough freefall time. The students don't want it because they don't get the bragging rights. I just don't think that you can sell the S/L notion these days.
I know, this just sounds like I am bitching for the sake of complaining. It is not about "glory days". It is a genuine concern. Have we outgrown ourselves? Do we "really" want Skydiving to be mainstream? Remember, if the more people who come to the sport, we will proportionately introduce stupid people.
I dunno...but I am beginning to believe that the first jump student should come and go. When they come back a second time...that is the one we should start to try to retain. Make them stay for the parties, induct them into our lifestyle. Make a whole day out of one jump. Man, I waited on the DZ entire weekends just to make a static line. Why? Because I believed that the people at the DZ believed in me and wanted me there. I partied, I trained, I crept, I sat through video after video, I was in the harness trainer and I loved it all. Skydiving did not just happen in the air. Skydiving was being a part of something bigger than myself. Skydiving is not a business..Skydiving is a lifestyle.

Moderators;
Is there any way to combine this thread with "New students don't stick with it?". This is the same subject.

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This thread makes me very happy that I found my DZ. I'm still on student status, didn't know any of these people 2 months ago, and everyone has been nothing but cool and helpful to me. Even during my staggering "afraid" stages, everyone was cool and supportive. I wonder why other experienced jumpers can't be like them? Also I think its partially on the student, you have to be just as open, allow yourself to make new friends.

Also, I'm thankful for the tandems, had it not been for a tandem, I'm not sure I'd be out jumping now, it took me a long time to get over the fear of jumping out by myself. Maybe more steps need to be made so that its not a joyride, maybe tandem masters should talk more about getting people into the sport? The DZ that I did my first tandem at allowed me to pull the cord myself, therefore it counted as my first jump. Maybe going more that route might be part of the answer?

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What's interesting is that the older people get, the more they seem to notice everyting that is wrong with the world. Negativity becomes a mantra.
***

That's because, as Grandpa Simpson once so poignantly stated, "The good Lord lets us grow old for a reason: To gain the wisdom to find fault with everything he has created"

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I did 22 tandems this past weekend and maybe 2 of them had even the slightest bit of interest in learning to skydive on their own. Most of them wouldn't have even unfastened their seat belt had I not been whispering encouragement in their ear.



Well, yeah, that's what you get when the jump is marketed as a thrill ride. You're not an instructor, you're a ride operator; the person on the front is not a student, they are a passenger. They're sold a one-off "experience," not an introduction to the sport.

And that is why you get passengers who have no interest in learning to skydive.

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How did I know when I opened this thread it would be another "tandems are killing our sport thread." I did 22 tandems this past weekend and maybe 2 of them had even the slightest bit of interest in learning to skydive on their own. Most of them wouldn't have even unfastened their seat belt had I not been whispering encouragement in their ear.

If lack of long tandem instruction is why they don't come back, then how come so many solo students that do receive a full day of training never come back?




Figures a tandem instructor would perceive that. :ph34r:

I didn't SAY tandems are ruining our sport...instead that they are a resource that's not being managed in an efficient manner to GROW the sport.

Like the oceans and forests, if we don't start to re seed behind us a little as we mow through the gravy $...we're going to, some where down the road, wish that we had.

The mass production money machine that tandems has become is in many ways helping the sport. All I'm saying is take a little extra time and effort to offer options and implant some excitement in these 'students'.

The 'class' I observed a couple weeks ago was given more information on the tip jar than they were on the possibilities of continuing in the sport...that's appalling.

Sure, I know I'm just a grumpy ole fart...But when I got my tandem rating in 1985, the concept was to assist in the training progression of future skydivers.

Dual flight instruction if you will...I quit doing tandems in the late 90's when I was no longer teaching the class but instead being met at the peas with fresh rig and a new 'carnival rider'.

Several of us old school "I" use to laugh about the 'what was your name again' sticker a TM had on his helmet.

Never would I have imagined that down the road they the 'students' wouldn't even HAVE names...only $ signs!










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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You know, I hear this about once every five years. I heard it when I started in 1991. It just wasn't the same, parties weren't as good, people didn't care any more, it's not like it used to be. AAD's were going to destroy skydiving. I heard more than one person say they would never, ever jump with a non-student who didn't trust themselves to pull. After all, if they don't think they can pull, what else can't they do? (The cypres had just come out and few people were using them.)

Shortly after that I heard it about HP canopy flight. Those Monarchs and Sabres are going to ruin the sport. Skydiving is about accuracy, not about going as fast as you can a foot above the ground! Hook turners were reckless yahoos who just "want theirs" and don't care about anyone else. They're loud, obnoxious, don't give back to the community etc etc.

Then it was freeflying. Those people don't care about skydiving either! They're not interested in learning to fly their bodies - they just like being unstable. Skydiving is in sad shape if we take THOSE people seriously. Roger Nelson might be good at it, but everyone else is just a flailer who wants a label other than "flailer." RWers were freeflyers who had finally learned to fall stable.

etc etc.

I've stopped taking the warnings about the imminent demise of skydiving seriously any more. Everyone thinks that at some point in their careers and it never happens.

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Well, yeah, that's what you get when the jump is marketed as a thrill ride. You're not an instructor, you're a ride operator; the person on the front is not a student, they are a passenger. They're sold a one-off "experience," not an introduction to the sport.

And that is why you get passengers who have no interest in learning to skydive.



I will grant tandems are marketed as you say but what about the question I asked? The solo students are not marketed a "one-off" experience. Why do so few of them return?

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I've been wondering the same thing. My first jump class was a refresher for returning students as well. There were 13 of us, 2 new, 11 refreshers...of those refreshers I've seen 4 of them back, 2 regularly. They've already lapsed their 2 month time. Can't say I really get it myself. Maybe they just aren't serious about it, or don't realize the time commitment?

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The solo students are not marketed a "one-off" experience. Why do so few of them return?

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Is it OUR fault or THEIR fault they don't stick around?

Maybe a little of both, but WE can do something about OUR part and make it a little more attractive to more of them. ;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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The solo students are not marketed a "one-off" experience. Why do so few of them return?



Maybe it's hearing that it will cost $200+ for the next AFF jump - and that the next jump must be done within the next 30 days or they'll have to repeat the class and jump they just did. Maybe it's the fact that nobody at the dropzone other than their instructor talks to them and they aren't outgoing enough to approach or are intimidated by experienced jumpers. Maybe it's that they don't see experienced jumpers having fun at the dz so they don't see that skydiving can be a fun recreational activity. Maybe it's their wives/mothers/families telling them they can't do that. Maybe they realize the risks and decide it's not for them. Or maybe one of a hundred other reasons...

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Bytch... I didn't want to mince words the first time around, but you again used the phrase "recreational activity" with respect to skydiving.

I realize that it is true that a lot of folks view skydiving as a "recreational activity"; especially when it comes to going out to the local DZ and doing a Tandem.

I also realize that it is this change towards viewing skydiving as a "recreational activity" that has changed things to do with skydiving that causes old timers like Sparky to crinkle their noses up and I can agree with that to a certain extent.

However, at the same time, I too raise an eyebrow when I hear skydiving refered to as a "recreational activity". It is not. It is a sport... a physical activity that can result in serious injury or de... blah, blah, blah, etc, etc... ;)

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Maybe it's hearing that it will cost $200+ for the next AFF jump - and that the next jump must be done within the next 30 days or they'll have to repeat the class and jump they just did. Maybe it's the fact that nobody at the dropzone other than their instructor talks to them and they aren't outgoing enough to approach or are intimidated by experienced jumpers. Maybe it's that they don't see experienced jumpers having fun at the dz so they don't see that skydiving can be a fun recreational activity. Maybe it's their wives/mothers/families telling them they can't do that. Maybe they realize the risks and decide it's not for them. Or maybe one of a hundred other reasons...



Those are all good possibilities. I have a feeling all of these reasons have as big an impact, if not more, than my ride operations lack of training.

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>>An entire tandem class of over 20 people was taught their class in less time than it took me to pack my rig.

The 'instructor' spoke a total of about 75 words and THAT WAS IT!

There was no talk of future possibilities regarding the sport with these students...nothing but a sign here, pay there and lets go for a ride...buy a tee shirt and SEE YA! <<

I agree with this. I'm not saying this doesn't exist but it's hard to find good people, regardless of where you are. To get anywhere in the sport now you have to dish out crazy cash (coach jumping, instruction, etc) basically everything and anything you have to pay for it. What ever happened to seriously trying to improve the sport and working with up and coming students? The attitude that mjosparky displays is exactly of that that will kill the sport because people who think like that will not pass on their knowlege to the younger people because they think of them as "They are for the most part loud, obnoxious and confrontational. They are big on “their rights” and have complete disregard for others. They seem to take great pride in sounding like an illiterate street thug. Picture a grade school bully in a grown up body.'' What does this display? Well for one, a negative outlook and an attitude of "this sport will die because I have just given up on trying and will not make the effort to make things better." I'm sorry Mjo, but it seems like you have lost some faith...I may be wrong, but I'm only saying this because I've been there. It is so hard to switch your mindframe into a positive one. I'm sure you have your mathematics and evidence all lined up to fire but I think that's the problem. Like everything, you have to put in genuine work for something to blossom.

There's always going to be assholes ( I know I've been one) but if I learned anything in life is to just keep on pushing, to never give up and be independent. The sport will not die, maybe a whole bunch of knowlege will disappear due to reasons I've already mentioned, but the show will go on.

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However, at the same time, I too raise an eyebrow when I hear skydiving refered to as a "recreational activity". It is not. It is a sport... a physical activity that can result in serious injury or de... blah, blah, blah, etc, etc...



Call it whatever you'd like. My point is that retention requires "selling" a student on the idea that skydiving is something fun that they can do. If they don't see a fun future for themselves in skydiving, they won't keep jumping.

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Those are all good possibilities. I have a feeling all of these reasons have as big an impact, if not more, than my ride operations lack of training.


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Agreed...but we have to start some where.

YOU can have a positive impact with your operation...however small it may seem, at least it's a start.

You personally can do more than I can, because of your particular type of involvement...I can 'mentor' low timers to an extent, which I do...but it's 'at the door' that we need to create a better atmosphere.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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My first jump class was a refresher for returning students as well. There were 13 of us, 2 new, 11 refreshers...of those refreshers I've seen 4 of them back, 2 regularly. They've already lapsed their 2 month time.



This sounds much like my 1st jump course. 13 took the class, 13 jumped, 5 returned for about 2 months, then 3 for a couple more months, then 2 for 6 more months.

Then 1 for 14 years.

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Can't say I really get it myself.



Correction: You DID get it. They didn't. ;)

Cheers.
Larry
'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

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People don't want static lines. The DZO's dont want it because it does not generate enough money. The Jumpmasters don't want it because it does not generate enough money and not enough freefall time. The students don't want it because they don't get the bragging rights. I just don't think that you can sell the S/L notion these days.



A well run S/L program can bring in money. Not as much as a tandem ride operation, of course, but enough to make it worth the effort. Since the effort will bring in people who want to jump but can't afford AFF, in the long run the dz will make even more money...

I know lots of people who'd be stoked to get $5 and a "free" hop and pop (ie canopy control/swooping training jump) in exchange for putting someone out on the dope rope at 3500'. The dz I worked at would let us ride to the top in exchange for the $5; lack of freefall time doesn't have to be an issue.

Students don't know any different - they're going to be (rightfully) proud of any jump they make.

An S/L program can easily be integrated with an AFF program - student does S/L through Cat C and then transitions to single JM AFF jumps.

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We often see what we look for. If I want, I can see old farts complaining of how it use to be, and kids ruining skydiving with their "entitlemnet" attitude. Is that all there is? Not unless that is all you want to see. :S


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I guess we can see what you are looking for:|



Actually, I think I can see the difference in pointing out one person's negative condescending attitude that labels everyone not like them as a detriment to the society.

I'm an 52 year old old fart, so I'm certainly not railing against our senior citizens, or the young up and coming studs. I'm merely pointing out that at a DZ if you get "object fixation" you'll likely strike said object.

steveOrino

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