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mjosparky

The death of Skydiving

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Recently there has been a lot of discussion about the continued decline in the numbers of active skydivers by both USPA and DZO’s. How do we stop the experienced jumpers for leaving what can be done to bring new people into the sport? The answer to these questions can be found by looking at skydivers themselves.

For the past 12 to 15 years there has been an increase in an attitude I call the “entitlement generation”. Every DZ has their share of them and we all know who they are. They are for the most part loud, obnoxious and confrontational. They are big on “their rights” and have complete disregard for others. They seem to take great pride in sounding like an illiterate street thug. Picture a grade school bully in a grown up body.

While small in numbers their impact on the sport of skydiving is and will continue to be huge. I can’t think of any other recreational activity that tolerates this type of behavior. Well maybe “mixed martial arts” but they keep those clowns in a cage. With the cost of jumping always on the rise more and more jumpers are looking elsewhere to spend their money and few first time jumpers are going to invest the money to learn a sport that seems unable or unwilling to control this fringe element. Finding an activity that offers the thrill without the crap is far too easy.

If the trend continues, and members of the “entitlement generation” are allowed to behave like spoiled children at DZ’s, in 10 to 12 years skydiving will be just a memory.
[:/]
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I do understand what you are saying about the “entitlement generation”...but I think you're maybe giving them to much credit.

They will burn out, burn IN or turn to BASE. ;)

It's capitalism that's going to kill skydiving if we don't get a handle on it.

I'm (as you know) not a slow or 'neat' packer...and while packing my rig at a DZ I went to a few weeks ago, I had a bit of an Epiphany.

An entire tandem class of over 20 people was taught their class in less time than it took me to pack my rig. :o

The 'instructor' spoke a total of about 75 words and THAT WAS IT! :S

There was no talk of future possibilities regarding the sport with these students...nothing but a sign here, pay there and lets go for a ride...buy a tee shirt and SEE YA! B|

Yes I do understand that's it's the tandem $'s that make the turbines whine..but if we as a community don't actually MAKE AN EFFORT to retain some of these people, the sport will fall, and not in the way we're use to.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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How do we stop the experienced jumpers for leaving what can be done to bring new people into the sport?



Drama Queens.

Stop dorkzone.com

The numbers started going down about the same time dropzone.com was founded... Coincidence? I think not:ph34r:





Ever wonder what 'possibly' is the definition of the Entitlement Generation ? ;)










~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

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Recently there has been a lot of discussion about the continued decline in the numbers of active skydivers by both USPA and DZO’s. How do we stop the experienced jumpers for leaving what can be done to bring new people into the sport? The answer to these questions can be found by looking at skydivers themselves.

For the past 12 to 15 years there has been an increase in an attitude I call the “entitlement generation”. Every DZ has their share of them and we all know who they are. They are for the most part loud, obnoxious and confrontational. They are big on “their rights” and have complete disregard for others. They seem to take great pride in sounding like an illiterate street thug. Picture a grade school bully in a grown up body.

While small in numbers their impact on the sport of skydiving is and will continue to be huge. I can’t think of any other recreational activity that tolerates this type of behavior. Well maybe “mixed martial arts” but they keep those clowns in a cage. With the cost of jumping always on the rise more and more jumpers are looking elsewhere to spend their money and few first time jumpers are going to invest the money to learn a sport that seems unable or unwilling to control this fringe element. Finding an activity that offers the thrill without the crap is far too easy.

If the trend continues, and members of the “entitlement generation” are allowed to behave like spoiled children at DZ’s, in 10 to 12 years skydiving will be just a memory.
[:/]



The attitude is prevalent in all areas, not just skydiving. Interestingly enough, I see it less at the DZ than I do most other places.

Maybe I've just been fortunate enough to be at a really well ran DZ with some of the best people I have ever met. I've been to several others, but only one day at a time, so I can't give you an experienced opinion on others.

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The attitude is prevalent in all areas, not just skydiving. Interestingly enough, I see it less at the DZ than I do most other places.

Maybe I've just been fortunate enough to be at a really well ran DZ with some of the best people I have ever met.



We often see what we look for. If I want, I can see old farts complaining of how it use to be, and kids ruining skydiving with their "entitlemnet" attitude. Is that all there is? Not unless that is all you want to see. :S

steveOrino

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The attitude is prevalent in all areas, not just skydiving. Interestingly enough, I see it less at the DZ than I do most other places.

Maybe I've just been fortunate enough to be at a really well ran DZ with some of the best people I have ever met.



We often see what we look for. If I want, I can see old farts complaining of how it use to be, and kids ruining skydiving with their "entitlemnet" attitude. Is that all there is? Not unless that is all you want to see. :S


You hit it right on the head. There will always be those who stand out and have the ability to get under your skin.

What's interesting is that the older people get, the more they seem to notice everyting that is wrong with the world. Negativity becomes a mantra.

I'm 44. I'm at the stage where I believe I can do everything just as good or better than the younger ones. :P (it can be painful too)

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I think that alot of people are missing the point. The lifestyle has changed. Not just at the DZ, but that is where many of us have invested our interest. I posted last night, in a thread, that it has changed. In some ways the sport has evolved well and in others poorly.
I had a very Fandango-like 1st jump course. That movie is an excellent representation of how the sport used to be. It was a brotherhood and we just happened to hanve the commonality of jumping out of airplanes. Now, we make a few jumps and head our seperate ways. I am as much to blame as anyone else. I don't drink anymore, I rarely hang out for the parties. But, I invested my time. And, I continue to invest in young jumpers. When they see the investment, they want more. That's the hook.
Alas, many DZ's talk about wanting "up-jumpers". But, they bump loads to send up Tandems. That is yet another indication of how DZ's have decided that this is a financial endeavor instead of a Skydiving Center. This all has a trickle down effect.
For the most part, a large part of Skydiving is gone. It is still strong in some places. Unfortunately, most of those places are spiritual rather than geographical.

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The attitude is prevalent in all areas, not just skydiving. Interestingly enough, I see it less at the DZ than I do most other places.

Maybe I've just been fortunate enough to be at a really well ran DZ with some of the best people I have ever met.



We often see what we look for. If I want, I can see old farts complaining of how it use to be, and kids ruining skydiving with their "entitlemnet" attitude. Is that all there is? Not unless that is all you want to see. :S


I guess we can see what you are looking for:|
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Recently there has been a lot of discussion about the continued decline in the numbers of active skydivers by both USPA and DZO’s. How do we stop the experienced jumpers for leaving what can be done to bring new people into the sport? The answer to these questions can be found by looking at skydivers themselves.

For the past 12 to 15 years there has been an increase in an attitude I call the “entitlement generation”. Every DZ has their share of them and we all know who they are. They are for the most part loud, obnoxious and confrontational. They are big on “their rights” and have complete disregard for others. They seem to take great pride in sounding like an illiterate street thug. Picture a grade school bully in a grown up body.

While small in numbers their impact on the sport of skydiving is and will continue to be huge. I can’t think of any other recreational activity that tolerates this type of behavior. Well maybe “mixed martial arts” but they keep those clowns in a cage. With the cost of jumping always on the rise more and more jumpers are looking elsewhere to spend their money and few first time jumpers are going to invest the money to learn a sport that seems unable or unwilling to control this fringe element. Finding an activity that offers the thrill without the crap is far too easy.

If the trend continues, and members of the “entitlement generation” are allowed to behave like spoiled children at DZ’s, in 10 to 12 years skydiving will be just a memory.
[:/]



exactly why i now scuba more, and fly my ultralight more, instead of jumping more.


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Where is Darwin when you need him?

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exactly why i now scuba more, and fly my ultralight more, instead of jumping more.




I am picking on you since you were the last post in the thread...

Why not just hang out with people at the DZ who are fun friends and ignore the fools?

Note - I quit paragliding because I did not like the people - so I know what you might be talking about. But the group was much smaller than the DZ population - where I have found some of my best friends at the DZ...

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From running events I have noticed that there is a group of people that seem to show up just to see if they can fuck things up. I'm not sure if they would fall into the group you are talking about but suspect that they would. Couple this with the fact that the IQ of the group will usually deteriorate down somewhere close to the lowest denominator and you have a recipe for the normal people to get tired of all the BS and leave the DZ or the sport.

Unfortunatly I don't think you can have both a DZ that has a family feel to it and also has a come one come all attitude. Weather you like it or not your going to have to give up one or the other.

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Why not just hang out with people at the DZ who are fun friends and ignore the fools?
...



That's probably the wisest advice.
As you get older (in age as well as time in the sport) you have a wider perspective, and are more able to see trends that you may feel are negative.

Things always evolve, and there is no changing that. Rather than fighting the evolution and changing the unchangable, I think it makes more sense to find the good and enjoyable things in the sport, and pursue them.

I had a great weekend jumping at a DZ where young, old, noobs and vets all seem to coexist and have an awesome time with this sport that we all love. (OK, there is the occassional stabbing, but who doesn't have that once in a while.) So I agree with the advice to go with the good and ignore the rest.;)

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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Some of this has already been mentioned, but here are my humble thoughts.

I've only been in the sport for about 3 years and the "way skydiving used to be" stories are about the glory days when skydiving was still a baby. Sport jumping is relatively new when compared to baseball, football, or even flying. We're fortunate enough to literally have the founders still participating. The early days of jumping, as told by the elders, were pretty much a small fraternity of crazy asses making it up as they went along. DZ's were just fields that had a cesna. Being a skydiver made them unique and created a common bond between people with similar personalities.

Now a day, anyone can get into the sport. Find a website, enjoy a tandem, call yourself a skydiver. Even when I started jumping several years ago, it seemed like the fraternity was a tight knit group where everyone knew everyone. WFFC is gone, skyride-esque scandals piss everyone off, up jumpers get bumbed for more tandems... the sport has grown like most wanted it to and now people want it to shrink back down to the family feel.

I grew up on a small 172 DZ that had the perfect family style. The attitude towards that kind of place tends to be, "only if i have to." People would rather jump from a turbine 5000ft higher, and why wouldn't they? I think Spence is right, you can either have a small family DZ or you can have a large DZ where you're guaranteed to not like someone. Find a small place and enjoy the family or sack up and ignore the folks you dont like at a large DZ.

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Stay positive and love your life.

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exactly why i now scuba more, and fly my ultralight more, instead of jumping more.




I am picking on you since you were the last post in the thread...

Why not just hang out with people at the DZ who are fun friends and ignore the fools?

Note - I quit paragliding because I did not like the people - so I know what you might be talking about. But the group was much smaller than the DZ population - where I have found some of my best friends at the DZ...



skydiving was my only "extreme" sport before scuba and ultralight flying. now, those sports are equal. i feel that there is an increase in "attitude" at DZs, which directly leads to higher risk of accidents and injury to me. in scuba, its me and my trusted buddie, no real chance of somebody crashing into me and killing me. In ultralight flying, we have radio communications to state our intent, direction, warnings and such to fellow pilots. in skydiving, the community cant even agree to separate different flying styles.

I like my DZ, and its people, its mellow, and it parties if you want. but, the sports with more trusted buddies and welcome communications are really gaining more attention from me.


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Where is Darwin when you need him?

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Hmm,, I've literally just started skydiving. Passed my aff and 2 jumps off my A. ;)

I am obviously still dead keen but i do know what you mean. I've already met a lot of dicks to be honest..... Given, there are alot of decent people but alot also seem to have a chip on their shoulder.

Thats my opinion from someone just coming into the sport so hell,,, what do i know.... I think the key is to just pick and choose who you hang with and ignore who you don't,,, same with any other situation in life i suppose.

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I don't know what the 'good old days' are like, since I've only been jumping for 3ish years. But I do remember why I didn't want to continue jumping when I was a student. I was very shy, always felt out of place at the DZ. No one would talk with me since I was 'only' a student and I was so in awe of the 'real' skydivers that I never initiated conversations with them. After that first AFF jump, I'd sit at the DZ waiting all day for an available instructor to jump with, which often didn't happen til afternoon. That's fine, but when no one is making any effort to talk with you, encourage you to watch the packers, watch dirt dives, point out landing patterns, it's tough. Especially when listening to other jumpers talk sounds like a foreign language.. to someone with a couple of jumps, what the hell is shagging a tandem? Dirt dive? etc?

I only continued to jump because my husband was a jumper. The jumping was ok, but my discomfort socially during my time on the ground outweighed my enjoyment in the sky. I did it for him. Wrong reason to jump, but that's the only reason I made it to an A license.

Once I had the A, lots of people were willing to jump with and work with me. Then I started packing, and the social end was easy, I lost my shyness, but I also saw a lot of students sitting around looking as completely lost and clueless as I did.

So as much as possible, I encourage students, particularly AFF students, to stick around all day, hang out with us after the jumping is done. If we go out, I'm always the first to offer a ride to the students if they are interested. As much as possible, I'll chat with them during the day to make them feel more comfortable than I did. I encourage them to watch us pack and see how things work. Maybe it's a packer thing, but the 3 other guys that I pack with all do exactly the same thing. I don't know if it's done any good in helping students stick around or not, there's no way for me to track that kind of thing. But at least we try.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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An entire tandem class of over 20 people was taught their class in less time than it took me to pack my rig. :o

The 'instructor' spoke a total of about 75 words and THAT WAS IT! :S

There was no talk of future possibilities regarding the sport with these students...nothing but a sign here, pay there and lets go for a ride...buy a tee shirt and SEE YA! B|

Yes I do understand that's it's the tandem $'s that make the turbines whine..but if we as a community don't actually MAKE AN EFFORT to retain some of these people, the sport will fall, and not in the way we're use to.




And there lies the problem!! while I also agree with mjosparky, but to add to it those guys will femur out in 3 to 5 years anyway, and yes they will hurt us as they do. But Tandems are a major way to grab people into the sport, not a carnival ride.
More, or start television marketing and bring back static line prices. Or hell bring back static line if we have to.



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But Tandems are a major way to grab people into the sport, not a carnival ride.
More, or start television marketing and bring back static line prices. Or hell bring back static line if we have to.



When we stop marketing a tandem skydive as a thrill ride and instead market it as an introduction to a legitimate recreational activity we'll start seeing tandem students coming back for more instead of watching tandem passengers leave the dz after they jump, never to return.

Bringing back static line is the best idea, imho. Give people a way to get into the sport on a budget and we'll not only see more people learning to skydive, we'll see a wider variety of people learning to skydive. Can't count how many people I've talked with who truly enjoyed their tandem and would love to continue jumping but just can't afford to do AFF in a timely fashion. For most people it's a lot easier to justify spending $45 every other week to do a static line jump than it is to justify $100+ every other week to do an AFF jump.

I submit that those whose budgets would require going the less expensive SL route are not the type of people that sparky is talking about...

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Mile Hi Skydiving has a program like that. To the best of my knowledge they spend a bit of time educating the passenger and don't treat it like a 'thrill ride'.

Co-incidentally they also have one of the highest retention rates in the country.....(so I'm told)

Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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mjosparky, i gotta ask, since you threw in the random comparison of mixed martial arts.

Where have you trained mma that tolerated disrespectful behavior? I have yet to meet a more respectful group of people. Is the comparison based entirely by what you watch on reality tv? Isn't that kinda like basing your opinion of skydiving off of point break or stunt junkies?

I'm all for the sport, and being a new jumper, im stoked. Maybe skydiving has fallen into the same rut as mma, being that only the most ill-behaved or most reckless deserve attention from the masses.

If you walk, just walk. If you sit, just sit. But whatever you do, don't wobble.
- Master Ummon

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Some of it has to do withthe clickieness of groups at some Dropzones. I like to travel around and visit different dropzones, so I can see what other drop zones are doing to help the new generation of skydivers. It is amazing the differenced between dropzones. I am going to try to bring some of the good ideas to my local DZ. I have already emailed the instructor at my local DZ about it.
Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
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mjosparky, i gotta ask, since you threw in the random comparison of mixed martial arts.

Where have you trained mma that tolerated disrespectful behavior? I have yet to meet a more respectful group of people. Is the comparison based entirely by what you watch on reality tv? Isn't that kinda like basing your opinion of skydiving off of point break or stunt junkies?

I'm all for the sport, and being a new jumper, im stoked. Maybe skydiving has fallen into the same rut as mma, being that only the most ill-behaved or most reckless deserve attention from the masses.



Hi BE

Sticking with the MMA thing

What would happen if MMA marketed the sport to everyone, give them a 15 minute lesson, let them roll around in a cage with a padded instructor and send them home with a video set to some cool tunes, never to return again.

The cage would be double booked, and the people that were really into couldn't get into the gym at the new prices. or the off peak time.

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Hi Sparky

I see a couple of issues with your thread.

1) You are not offering any solutions – but unfortunately I don’t have any easy ones either.

2) I see the “entitlement generation” you speak of as just an extension of society as a whole. Just look around you and you see the same behavior on the roads, in the schools and or in the business community. We live in a "me me" instant gratification world.

Now I sure as hell want to continue jumping well into my old age. But I am seeing a downward trend in my own jumping and the only way to counteract this trend is when getting to the dropzones is convenient, fun and affordable. When we have to drive hours and hours just to get to the dropzone and we don’t know if we will even be able to get on some loads due to shitty weather or a DZ which caters to tandems or specialize students and shuns other types of jumpers, well it’s easy to stay at home and do something else. Related to this, the dropzone environment must be fun. If it is not, well it’s easier to stay at home and do some other fun things. Finally it must be affordable. If we are looking at spending time and tons of money at a place that is not fun, well … you get the picture. But unfortunately anything related to aviation is going to be expensive. The DZs are not in business to lose money. If we as skydivers want this sport to be here in the future we all need to make it more convenient, more fun and affordable. It’s up to the DZOs, their staff, the competitive skydivers and fun jumpers to save the sport. It’s a collective effort. In some parts of the world skydiving is growing ... in other parts it is going the other way.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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