Jump order question

[pertierr 0]

I am currently doing high-pulls just to get aquainted with my canopy. Before I get on the plane I let everyone know where i'm pulling, and usually i'm the first person in the plane, last person out.

Today, this other jumper went in before me, i am not sure if he heard my pull altitude or not. However when we were almost at altitude, i told him I was pulling at 7k and asked him where he was pulling. He said 3k so i told him to go ahead in front of me, but he said that he was freeflying so I should go first.

After a few exchanges I convinced him to go first, and left plenty of separation as usual. He wasn't rude or anything, i just thought it was pretty obvious that he should go first...am i mistaken? I just figured i don't want this person buzzing by my canopy at 100mph while he still has 4000 feet to fall!

Thanks!

[AggieDave 6]

Generally speaking, the usual accepted order of exiting aircrafts is as follows:
1. Hop and pops (low exit)
2. RW big to small
3. FF big to small
4. Students(Coach then AFF)
5. Tandems
6. Wingsuits
7. CReW


Defined in the CReW category is anyone pulling at a "CRW" type altitude, which is generally speaking right out the door.

If you are out last and there are students/tandems on board, its generally a good idea not to suck it down, get out the door, take a couple of seconds and pull. Since you don't know if something might happen with the student jump that may require them dumping out high. For instance a Cat A tandem might accidently pull on a handle touch at 8k, so could an AFF student. It woulnd't be a good idea to go zinging by them if they're under canopy if you were in freefall.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cvfd1399 0]

Might add too, that you need to make sure you ask your dzo what max alt. you can pull at. My dz exits at 14k, but we cannot open till 11k due to air traffic. Exiting and waiting a few seconds from 14k would not allow us to get under that 11k limit.

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[brits17 0]

No, you're not mistaken. You did the right thing. If a solo belly (or anyone) is pulling about 5k, we generally place them last, right before AFF students and tandems. Make sure your DZ rules are known to everyone, the freeflyer should have used more common sense.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[sundevil777 93]

If you are belly flying after a freeflyer, then you are likely to be relatively close to their 'column'.

If they should happen to pull early, then you are screwed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[kallend 1,619]

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If you are belly flying after a freeflyer, then you are likely to be relatively close to their 'column'.

If they should happen to pull early, then you are screwed.

It's OK for a belly flyer to exit after a freeflyer IF he/she leaves enough delay. Since the belly flyer in this case wanted to pull high, taking the long spot wouldn't be an issue. I'd put the high puller out last and make sure that the individual was well briefed on exit separation issues.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JonBonGraham 0]

Just a thought...
[geekmode=ON]BUT...
I assume that you're doing belly flying on this jump, so...
If the belly-flier is going to be falling at around 120mph, and the freeflier at least 160mph (Is this a reasonable freefly-speed?) then jumping at 14k they would be level at 7k if the freeflier left about 9-10 seconds of gap, and would have more horizontal seperation than when the freeflier exited (as long as the FF-er was trying to work perpendicular to run-in, and wasn't side-sliding a ridiculous amount), so long as the FF-er leaves no more than 9 seconds of gap (and can be certain of keeping at speeds of around 160mph or more - ie. they've done this before and know they're not gonna cork it) then he/she/it will be level with, or below, the belly-flier when the BF-er deploys (this is all assuming nothing particularly freaky or abnormal happens on the dive, like the BF-er pulling high).
So surely if the freeflier knows they can keep up reasonable freefly speeds for the entire dive, leaves a delay of less than 9 seconds and works perp. to the run-in, then you should put the freeflier out first to try and increace horizontal seperation as much as possible when the BF-er pulls?
Aditionally, the FF-er is more likely to have a premie than the BF-er (I think...???), so I'd have thought you want the FFer to be out last so that they're above the flat-person for most of the dive (ie. less chance of a premmie with the BF-er above them) and because this will increace horizontal separation between the two if this does happen.[/geekmode]

Does this seem right to you guys, or am I missing something? Oh yeah, and it doesn't work if the belly-guy in question falls like a brick - I know one guy who can go fast enough in a mantis position that a lighter jumper did have to go into sit to catch up with him .

[please note that I know I'm no expert and yeah, I'm being a geek, but this did really make me think... also, this is JUST for people pulling AT 7k, so much higher than that might have the FFer still above the high-puller when he deploys, depending on delay given in the door]
I just thought I throw this out in the air as I often like to pull high as well (never pulled as high as 7k before, though) and I'd always preffer going out before free-fliers unless I plan to pull at 10/11 or something.

Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

[adamUK 3]

Jon,

You are being a Geek. Who let you out of mainfest anyway? Get back to mainfest at once and don't come out until Ian tells you to.

[speedy 0]

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Defined in the CReW category is anyone pulling at a "CRW" type altitude, which is generally speaking right out the door.

Anyone pulling right out of the door can go 1st or last or any where they want. They can only cause a problems for other people pulling out of the door or if they some how don't pull.

CRW will either go 1st or last. Depending on wind.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[LouDiamond 1]

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6. Wingsuits
7. CReW

Wingsuits generally get out last period. The Birdman flight plan alleviates any traffic issues and most Birdmen get out farther away from the DZ than even CRW in most cases. Again, wind and jump run may be a factor but I have yet to have any CRW guys tell me I needed to get out before them. In fact, most have usually opted for the first out and usually have their own jump run(crosswind).Such was the case with the US National team when they were training in Lake Wales right before the big storms and we had no issues. YMMV

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[totalbodypilot 0]

I think most people should realize you could be under an open canopy anywhere from 12,000' to 1500'. If you have an unexpected gear issue that opens your parachute early or if you have a hard pull that delays you from opening it when you wish to. My 2 cents,...but what you did was the right call.

Colon Berry

seek and destroy, clear and sweep, what ever you want to call it, its all fun in games in the game of war.

[pertierr 0]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

I always leave a lot of seperation since I am exiting last and pulling high, I have plenty of time to get back to the DZ. However, i probably should've told the other jumper that I would leave a lot of separation, maybe he was afraid that I wouldn't.

In any case, my reasoning was that he falls faster, and i pull much higher for ~sure~. :)

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

Here's a new though to consider.

How about ALL jumpers on the lift telling the JM what they are doing and their intended deployment height then he will set the exit order. JM is normally the most experienced jumper on the lift & he SHOULD know, if he doesn't then tell him to read AggieDave's reply (perhaps the list could include 2a solo flats [as this is not strictly a small RW] & 3a solo FF).

Re Sundevil777 'If you are belly flying after a freeflyer, then you are likely to be relatively close to their 'column'. If they should happen to pull early, then you are screwed. '
The exit order is based on the type of jumps the skydivers intend to do, they should not alter it 'mid jump' unless something goes wrong and they have to. All skydivers must be 'heads up' (taking notice of what's happening around them) at all times.
No good thinking 'what if this happens' otherwise jump order woud be 'one out per pass, only one person in the air at any time' (no AFF, RW CReW, formation FF etc.).

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[Fast 0]

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How about ALL jumpers on the lift telling the JM what they are doing and their intended deployment height then he will set the exit order. JM is normally the most experienced jumper on the lift & he SHOULD know, if he doesn't then tell him to read AggieDave's reply (perhaps the list could include 2a solo flats [as this is not strictly a small RW] & 3a solo FF).

I bet a lot of DZs don't have a specific JM for every load. By me its almost always the same order unless there are special jump type of stuff going on. Normally a couple heads up people just make sure everyone gets on in the generally right order.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[sundevil777 93]

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The exit order is based on the type of jumps the skydivers intend to do, they should not alter it 'mid jump' unless something goes wrong and they have to.

The order is based on maintaining horizontal separation. That way if something does change 'mid jump' such as a premature opening, you are still safe. Of course they should not alter their plan, but the standard exit order is designed specifically to provide horizontal separation because just planning on vertical separation is not wise.

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All skydivers must be 'heads up' (taking notice of what's happening around them) at all times.

That is not realistic, in my opinion. We wouldn't need but 1 second between groups if this were true. We wait much more than this so that we can focus on our planned dive, whether it is RW or FF.

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No good thinking 'what if this happens' otherwise jump order woud be 'one out per pass, only one person in the air at any time' (no AFF, RW CReW, formation FF etc.).

The std exit procedure takes care of the early opening scenario. No need for one group per pass.

Of course with enough time delay between groups, it doesn't matter who goes first or last. Most people are not inclined to wait that long, however.

In my opinion, the std group order should not be changed because a belly-flyer is planning on opening at 7K (unless,as stated before, they are willing to wait a significantly longer period of time than normal).

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

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I bet a lot of DZs don't have a specific JM for every load.

Correct me if i'm wrong but in the UK, under the BPA rules, there must be a JM (normally the most experienced) on every lift. I would have thought this was the case everywhere but rules do vary in other countries. I believe it makes sense and it does usually stop discussions on run in.

A jumpmaster can't make you jump but he CAN stop you, after all he is in charge og the lift!

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

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The order is based on maintaining horizontal separation.

and the type of jump the skydiver intends to do is a major factor to be considered when attempting to achieve horizontal separation. If this were not the case then it wouldn't matter what order the jumpers exited.

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My comment
All skydivers must be 'heads up' (taking notice of what's happening around them) at all times.

your comment
That is not realistic, in my opinion. We wouldn't need but 1 second between groups if this were true. We wait much more than this so that we can focus on our planned dive, whether it is RW or FF.

I did not mean that jumpers should have 'heads on swivels' & 'be fitted with rear view (up, down & sideways) mirrors'. What I did mean is that they should be aware of what others are intending to do (especially the jumper(s) immediately before & after them), know what is happening in their 'pocket of air' (RW or FF group) & watch where they are going on separation at breakoff. Surely that is realistic?

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Of course with enough time delay between groups, it doesn't matter who goes first or last. Most people are not inclined to wait that long,

It would to the last out if he were so deep that he had no option but to land out which does happen when groups 'faff on' in the door.
Taking the 'what if' line of thought to the extreme then NO ONE WOULD JUMP. This is why experience has help us to set a (relatively) safe jump order which most jumpers/DZs follow.

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In my opinion, the std group order should not be changed because a belly-flyer is planning on opening at 7K (unless,as stated before, they are willing to wait a significantly longer period of time than normal).

Does this mean a solo jumper pulling at 7K should exit after RW groups and before FF groups. If that is the case then why is it normal practice for tandems to exit last (their fall rate being about equal to a solo flat) or level 1-3 AFF just prior to tandems when their fall rate is about equal to a RW 3 way? I understood it to be that as they pull high a deeper spot helps helps prevent them being blow downwind of the DZ in the (normally) stronger wind at 4-5,000 ft ( as well as reducing the risk of a head down FF whizzing through their canopy at 180 mph).


.

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

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[billvon 2,379]

> If that is the case then why is it normal practice for tandems to exit last

Because they can make it back from long spots. If that's not an issue they can get out with RW groups - and in fact do just that at places like Rantoul where they have separate landing areas.

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

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Because they can make it back from long spots. If that's not an issue they can get out with RW groups - and in fact do just that at places like Rantoul where they have separate landing areas.

Well you learn something new every day! The only way we learn is by asking more experienced skydivers like yourself.

Thank for the reply.

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[kallend 1,619]

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> If that is the case then why is it normal practice for tandems to exit last

Because they can make it back from long spots. If that's not an issue they can get out with RW groups - and in fact do just that at places like Rantoul where they have separate landing areas.

As can a solo belly flyer pulling high, which was what this thread started with. He said he was pulling at 7k. He can take the long spot so going last wouldn't be an issue as long as he left plenty of separation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Geoff 0]

That's right for the UK - jumpmaster in charge (second only to the pilot) on every lift, but not most other countries, and not under USPA rules.

We're definitely in the minority.

Geoff