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storm1977

Students watching Videos of Low turns

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I am not sure if it has been brought up before, but I was wondering what everyone's take on this was.

I was a student a few short years ago, and I am still a low timer. I remember in my training being warned of "Low Turns" and what they can do.

I was trained at the Ranch by Nikki, and Guy Wright, 2 great teachers that I learned a lot from. However, hearing about a low turn, and seeing one are two very different things. I was always paranoid about turning low, but it wasn't until I had about 30 jumps, when I saw someone's parachute beat them to the ground. (Some how they lived...)

Watching that with my own eyes had a profound effect on the way I approach landing. I feel it has made me a great deal more aware and conscience of what CAN happen if I panic.

Recently a student died at the ranch from an apparent panic turn or loss of awareness. We hear about it all the time. I was wondering what people's opinions of showing videos of low turns (burn-ins) to students would be.
By students I mean anyone past Tandem, and going through a program. Maybe it would work like a "Scared Straight" type show. Obviously we don't want to scare people away from skydiving, but maybe we can bring the realities of this sport to the attention of newbies to instill on them some sort of awareness of the danger of Low Turns.

Thoughts comments???

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

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My opinion:

I think it has its ups and downs...I know a guy that was scared as hell to turn low from horror stories and made a straight in approach from more than enough altitude and ended up in a tree.

possible that showing a video to jumpers just getting in to it would cause more of these?

I don't really think students are warned too little about the dangers of low turns, at least, it was drilled in to my head over and over.

But, then you also get the occassional toggle monkey

Edit to add: a good solution, however, now that I think about it, might be to have videos of that on-hand, and when you see mr. whippy comming around close to the ground, the S&TA sits him down and lets the video do the talking?

good thoughts, storm


BE THE BUDDHA!

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I think his point is not whether or not the instructor can get the point across. The instructor portraying and explaining something well, and the student hearing and really understanding it are two different things.

I'm sure you've seen toggle monkeys right out of the student course.


BE THE BUDDHA!

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A good instructor should be able to get the point across just fine without having to use carnage video.



Yes, what Skyhigh said.

Hey my instructors were great, I listened and wasn't stupid most of the time, but again seeing it happen had much more of an effect on me than the instuctors telling me. Plus, I may not have been your "typical" student. In my progression I saw some students do stupid things even though the same instructors I had told them the same things.

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

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Showing video of people burning in is totally unnecessary. May as well show vid of a no pull, or of a 2 out wrap, or any one of the other ways shit can go kaflooie in the air and kill you.

Better to show video of people doing it RIGHT, so that's what the student has going through his/her head at landing time. You need POSITIVE stimulus, or the student can get into a "oh my god i'm gonna do this wrong and turn low and die" mentality, and then actually do it because that's all they're thinking about.

They eventually will see the real thing, hopefully not in first person mode. The learning will happen, but you can't force it.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

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As being very new to the sport...why are low turns so dangerous? And what makes them dangerous?



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Your first priority - on every skydive - is landing safely.
To land safely, you need a parachute overhead. If you land in a turn, your parachute is not directly overhead, it is banked at some angle. The faster the turn, the steeper the bank angle, until the parachute is no longer over your head.
Any time a parachute is banked/rolled, it devotes some of its energy/lift to trying to recover from the bank. That reduces the amount of lift slowing you down/reducing your rate of descent.
Ergo, if you land while still turning, you will land harder that normal. If you land while turning fast, you will descend so fast that you will be injured, maybe even killed.
The best way to avoid painful landings is to think ahead of your parachute, so you can fly a standard/boxed pattern, straight in the last few hundred feet, keeping your parachute overhead for landing.

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Showing video of people burning in is totally unnecessary



as far as showing it to students fresh out of the gate, I agree with you...

but what about hot shit whippy doing toggle turns to land at 30/40 jumps and talking about how much surf he got?

I say this because I know someone that does it.

maybe "totally unnecessary" is not necessarily the right phrase, what about, a good idea only in rare instances? and when accompanied about INFORMATION ON WHY THEY BURNED IN, rather than the standard "if you do this, you'll die"

Just my opinion:)


BE THE BUDDHA!

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I think most students KNOW not to do low turns - it is that they FORGET when a -tree/rock/plane/hangar/car/insert other noun here - all of a sudden appears in front of them and they panic thinking turning is like a car in 2D space.

This is where I bet a lot more training could be used... It is common to demonstrate your your cutaway moves - but how many instructors make students show emergency landing moves before they leave the plane?

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As being very new to the sport...why are low turns so dangerous? And what makes them dangerous?



Simply stated if you turn your chute in a typical one toggle turn your forward speed increases dramatically. This is no big deal at altitudes above 1000 Ft.
Depending on your canopy and weight, and several other factors, there is a recovery time between stopping the turn and your canopy flying straight again.

Turning too low can cause you to strike the ground at a high rate of speed.
The bigger the chute the more forgiving, however, almost any chute can kill you if you turn too low.

Often it is taught that you can give a full toggle input
above 1000ft. Between 1000 and 500 you can give a half toggle input, and below that a 1/4 toggle input.
Speak to your Instructor they can tell you everything you need to know.
Low turns are important for beginners to understand, and ways of avoiding them are just as important.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

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Simply stated if you turn your chute in a typical one toggle turn your forward speed increases dramatically



.....buy brian Germaine's book www.bigairsportz.com

and talk to someone about that statement, it's not wrong it's just incomplete.


BE THE BUDDHA!

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I've only been in the sport a very short time and only done a few jumps but from listening to instructors (opinions) the reason so many people are turning low and killing themselves is they are downsizing to fast. In the good old days (so im told) when people started to swoop it wasn't on small 0P canopies, these people had thousands of jumps on bigger ones before the 0P were even invented. Therefore their canopy control was far superior to people who are starting jumping small canopies with (relatively speaking) few jumps. Maybe people - in my opinion - who are just off student status that should be given more thorough training before they become 'experienced' (british B license parachutists). This although wont completely solve the problem will hopefully educate jumpers more.

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the reason so many people are turning low and killing themselves is they are downsizing to fast.



Don't just listen to their opinions, read the fatalities for yourself. It's not just people under high performance canopies trying to swoop that are pounding in on a turn, its students and people who 'weren't known to be agressive canopy pilots' doing it too.
--
drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend.

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I've only been in the sport a very short time and only done a few jumps but from listening to instructors (opinions) the reason so many people are turning low and killing themselves is they are downsizing to fast. In the good old days (so im told) when people started to swoop it wasn't on small 0P canopies, these people had thousands of jumps on bigger ones before the 0P were even invented. Therefore their canopy control was far superior to people who are starting jumping small canopies with (relatively speaking) few jumps. Maybe people - in my opinion - who are just off student status that should be given more thorough training before they become 'experienced' (british B license parachutists). This although wont completely solve the problem will hopefully educate jumpers more.




Ally,

That is not always the case. If you read the incidents forum you will see recently a student at the ranch was killed under a manta 280. I learned on the same equipment. In hindsight, they are very big very slow chutes, however, still Lethal if you try to land in a turn.

This student did do a 450 degree turn, but there is noting to suggest a 90 low bank wouldn't have done him in.

This was not an attempt to downsize or swoop, simply either loss of alti awareness (Doubtful he was in his patern) or something scared him, maybe trees or runway....

It is always better to hit the trees or go downwind than to bank it into the ground.

Onething I will say, I was NEVER taught what a FLAT TURN was as a student.... I think more emphasis should be put on them!!!

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

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:)
really, it comes down to that there's just too much that you "should" know, in order to keep yourself safe (I use that term loosely). Personal research. I think that needs to be pushed more than anything.

For the individual to ask where to go to find information, and what to do to get the feel, and then do it, that, combined with a patient and knowledgeable mentor, will teach far more than any of us ever could.


BE THE BUDDHA!

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I am not sure if it has been brought up before, but I was wondering what everyone's take on this was.



It won't help.

Some of the fatalities come from unplanned low turns. People react incorrectly to obstacles/traffic and die. Video won't help.

Some come from botched high-performance landings. Most of us think we're not going to do anything as stupid as the people we've seen crash.

Wait long enough and you'll see more than enough fatalities+serious injuries.

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This comment doesn't really apply to students as they just don't have the experience. But it is more intended to that person with 30 or more skydives (that would be you). Turning low to the ground is NOT to be fear just as long as you know the performance characteristics of your canopy. If you know how much altitude your canopy will eat up in certain types of turns and you've got a certain sight picture built into your mind. You will know if a turn low to the ground can be successfully executed. If you're on short final and something (like another canopy, a dog, or a child, etc, etc, etc) cuts you off, you need to turn. If you've built in a "I CAN'T TURN NO MATTER WHAT" attitude well guess what? You're headed for a collision. The key then is to spend the time learning the performance characteristics of your canopy (up high first before you bring it close to the ground). Too many people in the early days of their skydiving career neglect their canopy control and it's the canopy control which allows you to make that next load.

As to whether a carnage video would be good or bad, I think that will depend on the individual student. It should be used for the up and coming swooper who thinks that becoming a bad ass swooper is a sprint rather than a marathon. But I'm not sure if it would help your average student.

Learn the slow flight performance characteristics of you canopy and learn how much altitude is lost during different types of turns.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Better to show video of people doing it RIGHT, so that's what the student has going through his/her head at landing time. You need POSITIVE stimulus, or the student can get into a "oh my god i'm gonna do this wrong and turn low and die" mentality, and then actually do it because that's all they're thinking about.



I think good video is more useful than bad video, at the AFF ground school level. Students get told "no low turns" but what constitutes low or a turn is not so well spelled out. I know I was using 1/3rd as much toggle as the radio guy was asking for.

While much of this can be seen on the ground at the LZ, I think I tended to fixate on the very final approach, not what they were doing in the 300-600ft range that is really important in this issue.

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Mr Whippy, I like that :P

Some examples of bad landings, and then some examples of good flat turns, doing accuracy type approaches in deep brakes, etc. might be very good to show there are alternatives to hard turns.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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hey Chris, I watched Tom's accident and have been thinking about it a lot lately. This didnt happen because Tom didnt know about low turns. It happened because it wasnt instinct enough to do a braked turn. By the time a new jumper reacts to an emergency situation low, even on a big canopy, it can be to late. It has to be more than taught, it has to be instinctual. I am not claiming I now how to make it so, but I am trying to work with people to come up with better ideas.

It came for me when I had 12 jumps and landed in a tight spot between 2 houses after seeing lines running across the back yards. I jammed my shoulder pretty good, but walked away. I told myself that never again would a canopy tell me where to go. Thats the motovation I needed to seek the knowledge of canopy flight.

I thought about (and even discussed) the idea of showing video of low turns ( not necessarily fatal) to new jumpers. I dont think it would work. If anything, fear is going to make them react slower. We need to teach methodical slow canopy flight and instill students with the confidence to use it. If they know how, they will know when to use it.

I have done a few cross countries/ high hopnpops with a few newer jumpers on it. The reaction they gave me was great. Most never realized about the great way to get aquainted with their canopies. And this was with no training, just for fun. I look forward to working with low timers on some real flight training.

Come find me at the ranch next time you're there. I still havent met you yet.. We can go do a hopnpop!

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

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Kinda like venereal disease films in sex ed or crash films in drivers ed...
Some folks will be scared shitless and some will never learn.

Such films pictures should probably be reserved for actual students during their progression, not firsttime jumpers. I think that being shown the consequences of something rather than just hearing about sharpens the learning curve. It may negatively impact some students, even make'em dropout, but if they can't handle the real risk associated with this sport then they need to T.U.G. (take up golf).

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

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Watching low turn videos of how to & how not to do them, along with full briefings from 'the experts' (the people who really know about them, not the sub 100 jump person who did one and got away with it) will help those skydivers with enough experience and to want to do low turns, do them as safely as posible.

I was taught the best time to aviod a lanfing hazzard was while you are still above 200 ft & not on final approach.
The problem of using low turns, as an avoidance manouver , is target fixation whereby you either fly straight into the hazzard (knowing you are going to hit it but not doing anything to avoid it) or take action to avoid it at the last posible second.
Aren't low turns mainly use to build up momentum for swooping? I believe Rickster Powell (King of the swoop?) said something to the effect to be good at swooping, knowing when NOT to swoop was just as important as knowing how to'. Surely then knowing when NOT to turn low is just as important as knowing how to!
I accept that there may be the odd ocassion when things go really wrong and you have no option but to land in an area full of hazzards but these are the exception & not the rule.

.


Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

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Knowing how to turn low will allow you to know when you can and cant turn tow.

On a normal straight in approach, I think you should be able to pull off a 90 degree turn on ground level and walk away with little more than dirt on your jumpsuit. Maybe not on a student canopy, mind you, but any sport canopy should supply you with the lift to do that.

If you could do a 90 on the ground, just imagine what you could do with 100 or even 300 feet!

Low timers need to do what it takes to build confidence i their own abilities.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

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