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baseknut

1st downsize from student canopy?

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About 100 jumps on a Falcon 300 student main that had about 10,000,000 jumps on it. My first canopy was a 215 Monarch (1.05 W/L), about 75 jumps on that. Nobody on the dropzone at the time had a rig or a canopy that was between the student gear (300 Falcon) and a 170. Then I went to a 170 Nitron(1.44 W/L), got about 400 jumps on it now, it's going to be my second rig for back to back tandem videos. I put about 130 jumps on a 150 Stilleto(1.63 W/L) while I was getting my Nitron fixed. My new canopy is a Comp Cobalt 150 but I don't have it yet. I noticed the big drop from the 300 Falcon to the 215 Monarch wasn't as big a deal as going from the 215 to the 170. I've heard that the smaller you go the more of a difference it makes. There was a huge difference between my 170 Nitron and the 150 Nitro I demo'd and Duane says there is a big difference between his 99 Alpha and his 94 Alpha.
"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

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From my logbook:

Jumps 001-020: Manta 288 w/l .69:1
Jumps 021-023: Mavoronne (sp?) 260 w/ .77:1
Jumps 024-030: PD Navigator 220 w/l .90:1
Jumps 031-050: PD Sabre 1 190 w/l 1.05:1
Jumps 051-060: PD Sabre 1 170 w/l 1.17:1
Jumps 060-107: Paraflite TZ 165 w/l 1.21:1

I loved jumping the Navigator and always had good landings.

I didn't notice much difference between the 190 & 170. I actually alternated between these two canopies a little depending on which one was packed when I needed it. I found the 170 to be a little more responsive and just as easy to land. Your mileage may vary.

My TZ 165 seemed to be a lot faster compared to the Sabre 170. Despite the slightly less sq. footage, the forward speed, at least my perception of it, was much faster than I expected. Now that I've been desensitized to this canopy, I actually like the faster speed on landing. :ph34r:

I got my rig based on the advice of my instructors; I'd recommend consulting with them before picking one due to the different performance characteristics at different wing loadings of each model.

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How many jumps each did you put on the 170, 150, 135 and now a 120 before you decided to advise a newbie that it's okay to downsize so fast? I don't know you and have obviously never seen you fly a canopy. But that has got to be one of the most aggressive progressions I've ever heard of. Ready to try an 87? I bet you're a natural huh? I've always wanted a red canopy and I bet you could turn my white canopy into a red one in no time.




Uggggh Steve...Tiger comes to mind when I read this thread[:/]B| She downsized way too fast after a challenging AFF course and had major injuries to her spine (along with her knees and ankles)





_________________________________________

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My first canopy was a Sharpshooter 244sq 7-cell F-111. I got it at 15 jumps. I spent the next 150 jumps, jumping the h#$l out of every demo rig I could get my hands on. My first new canopy (180 jumps) was a 120 AR-11. w/l 1.59. The canopy opened and flew like crap, but I learned a lot.



Don't flame me. I am just answering the original Q. Not giving advice
HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

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Tiger comes to mind when I read this thread



Hi Katee ... hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

I've decided to back away from this thread. Despite my last post here sounding like what a canopy nazi would say, I'm not a canopy nazi. I feel that if people want to fly high performance canopies, then there is not much other people can do but voice their opinion on the matter. But ultimately the decision is up to the individual jumper. We're all different and bring different skills and experience to the table. In the long run, people are hurting themselves (not necessarily hurting as in crashing) if they progress too fast without learning all that they can learn from the current canopy they are under. The dedicated canopy pilot is capable of progressing faster than the average freefall skydiver (mainly because the dedicated canopy pilot knows to seek coaching and seek time under canopy). Hopefully enough newer jumpers are told this message and are smart enough to follow the advice. But as I said, we're all different and we all progress at different levels.

Steve can now be seen stepping off of the soap box and he has two cents less in his pocket than when he started.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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just wondering what size canopy you all downsized to after you quit renting student gear and bought your own.



This is a really bad place to ask what size canopy you should be jumping . You should ask you AFFI what size you should get . He or She knows you and will give you the right wing loading for you .good luck
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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I'm still working my way through AFF, but the question I have on this subject-

Shouldn't the design of the canopy in question be part of the decision? I would think that two canopies of equal size say, a 190 Stiletto v a 190 Navigator would have grossly different flight characteristics. So while it might be safe to downsize to a 190 Nav, a similar sized Stil or Katana would be dangerous.

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Again you need to talk to your AFFI . they will let you know what will be good for you. It is better to go slow on the down sizing then get hurt because you moved down to quickly. There are so many variables with canopies , wing loading ect. . You need to talk to your AFFI . they are the one jumping with you at this time . Good luck
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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My first (and current rig) is a Mirage G3 with a Spectre 210, PD 193 reserve & Cypres 2. (I weigh 215). Amazing canopy. Amazing openings, quite fast... and I love how reliable it is - throw the damn thing in the bag, make a few line stowes and guess what?... perfect openings every time! (of course I left out a few details) but still... great canopy

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Jumps 1 - 30, Manta 288, WL 1.3
Jumps 30 - 70, Fury 220(?), WL 1.0
Jumps 70 - 300, Falcon 215, WL 1.0

I stayed with the Falcon for a while because I was not jumping enough to think about going smaller. When the frequency of my jumps got up there (back to at least a few jumps each week) I started transitioning down by jumping a variety of DZ canopies, working down to a 170 over about 30 jumps. A couple jumps on 190's with no significant difference. The 170 did get my attention, and I put about 25 jumps on it.

Jumps 330 - 530, Sabre 150, WL .7

Very happy with this setup now that I have the opening speed slowed down. I do have a Stilleto 135 in the locker. Not sure if I will ever use it.

I'd add one more bit to the topic. Careful with throwing too many transitions at your brain at one time. I went from SOS student gear to BOC rental to legstrap borrowwed (Fury) and back to BOC. I had no incidents, but knowing what I know now - I do not think that was very wise.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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just wondering what size canopy you all downsized to after you quit renting student gear and bought your own.



I see you jump at Z hills
Instead of asking a bunch of people who have never seen you fly a canopy
Next time you are at the DZ
Walk over to the Bird House (Wingsuit room) and talk to Chuck Blue
I think he's jumped a canopy or two...:S
Have him or someone he recommends look at you in person, watch you land,and discuss what would be appropriate.
B|

Andrew

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Check your calculations on the wing loadings. Either you were losing weight at an incredible pace during your jumping career, or you divided sq ft by pound, instead of lbs divided by sq ft.



Let's see:

288 sq ft / 225 lbs = 1.28
215 sq ft / 215 lbs = 1.00
150 sq ft / 210 lbs = 0.71

That does seem odd, doesn't it?

How about this:

225 lbs / 288 sq ft = .078
215 lbs / 215 sq ft = 1.00 (That one is the same!)
210 lbs / 150 sq ft = 1.40

Crikey! I better upsize.;)
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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just wondering what size canopy you all downsized to after you quit renting student gear and bought your own.



How much do you weigh?

What size canopies have you been jumping with?

If you have your license, does you DZ have non-student rental gear available?

Ask your instructor, coach about what you've been jumping, and what a good canopy to try next.

Remember, it's not just the size, but the type of canopy too. They come in all shapes and sizes.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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hey,
i have been jumping a pd navigator 240. i have a 210lb. exit weight. and yes there is rental gear available, but this post was questioning downsizing for my first PURCHASE.:D

thanks for the tips though. i think i may try demos of the canopies i am interested in flying.

Step into my (sub)terminal Playground

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During my first 7 RAPS jumps I don't remeber canopy size.
During my AFF, I was jumping PD 210-280sqft.
During consols, I was jumping PD 210 and Fury 220 until jump number 34 (I got my A certificate on jump number 33).
From 34 until jump number 47, I was jumping a borrowed Sabre2 170sqft.
From 47 and after, I jump my own Hornet 150 wing loaded 1,26 (I weight 189lbs with rig and full equipment).

I have over 40 jumps with this canopy, and I can say
that is an absolute beautiful canopy, high performance and very ease to pack.
You can ease swoop it in light wind conditions, without any riser input.

I have jump with both Sabre2 170 and Sabre 150, and I absolute love my Hornet.
Outperforms both, in my opinion.

I don't think that is a problem one young jumper to fly it, as fare as he is a bit careful.

Too bad is not anymore in production.

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hey,
i have been jumping a pd navigator 240. i have a 210lb. exit weight. and yes there is rental gear available, but this post was questioning downsizing for my first PURCHASE.:D

thanks for the tips though. i think i may try demos of the canopies i am interested in flying.



I understand what your original post was about, but you didn't provide a whole of information for anyone to make any kind of informed recommendation.

If you expect that you'll be a fairly conservative pilot, then you might look at these canopies, as they're fairly common:

--Aerodyne Triathlon
--Aerodyne Pilot
--Icarus Safire 2
--PD Sabre 2
--PD Spectre

Me personally? My progression looked like this (I weigh about 180), and I am not a high-performance canopy pilot:

Jump 1, Falcon 300
Jump 2-10, Falcon 265
Jump 11-19, Falcon 215
Jump 20-32, Falcon 215, 195, 170
Jump 33+, Triathlon 160 -- which is eventually what I purchased by jump 80-ish.

If you're near Z-Hills, then you should have plenty of demo gear available to try out. Take advantage of it, and take your time.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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Having fairly recently downsized I was amazed to finally actually be in airspace with other jumpers!

Anyway:
1 to 18 - Skymaster 230
19 to 25 - Navigator 200
25 to 30 - Safire2 209
31 to 70 - Merit 190
70 to now - Sabre2 170 loaded at 1:1

After jump 60 I did a canopy course which was so worthwhile, especially now my landings are getting to be fun on the Sabre2!

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210 exit weight on a 150 is a 1.4 WL - that's loading it pretty highly for being at 31 jumps. Even the 170 is a 1.23 WL - pretty high wingloading for your jump numbers.

Be careful, and if you're going to jump the 170, stay on it for a while. A 150 is a LOT different than a 170. It's technically considered a high performance canopy, and with your wingloading, it's going to haul serious ass.

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My first (and current rig) is a Mirage G3 with a Spectre 210, PD 193 reserve & Cypres 2. (I weigh 215). Amazing canopy. Amazing openings, quite fast... and I love how reliable it is - throw the damn thing in the bag, make a few line stowes and guess what?... perfect openings every time! (of course I left out a few details) but still... great canopy



Second the statements about the Spectre...
My first and current rig:
Mirage G3, Spectre 190, PD 193 and Vigil. I am 195 out the door.
I also found out it is a whole lot easier to pack in San Diego where the humidity is above the normal 5 to 7 percent we have here. :)
"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

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made some jumps on a solo 230, navigator 220, spectre 190, and a sabre2 170. i will be demoing a sabre170 for a while.

but my plans are to buy a spectre or sabre2 150.




Don't rush things, you can't sky dive with your femure sticking out of your skin!!

You also are going run this risk of screwing up your learning progression if your just trying not to die each time you come in for landing.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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