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simplyputsi

Organizers

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So I'll stir it up today. I always see boogies advertising organizing by x, or y, or whoever and I wonder who cares.
Say the organizer is a FF, most of the time, from my experience is that the only people getting organized are the bad ass free flyers.
Say the organizer is a Belly flyer/RW. Most of the time it's the high jump number people getting organized.

I'm not saying this is how it is all the time, and I've been organized more than a few times by the advertised organizer.

I guess i'm wondering what everyone thinks about it. Do you say hey, x is organizing at that boogie I'm going?
I'm probably just talking out of my ass. [:/]

And before anyone flames, I did not say organizing is a bad thing!!!! or the organizers.
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Offical organizers.....(get paid or free jumps or whatever)

Some really work hard and organize everybody that asks for help. Sometimes it means mixing skill levels, sometimes it means segregating skill levels. I find people that get upset are usually those that should be on 4-ways or smaller being pissed because they thought they were entitled to be the low experience man on the 25 way and ruin it for the other 24. I think it's a tough thing to be a good organizer. Lots of respect. Organizing is more than just collecting tickets and putting everybody on the same jump regardless of ability and doing simple/simple/simple/SIMPLE jumps, organizing is also about showing people "successful" skydives too. I'm much happier to see 3 or 4 organizers and each is in charge of a skills level.

And some organizers are just there to get free jumps and jump with who they want to.



Most I've met are the first kind.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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[qoute]I've been organized more than a few times by the advertised organizer[/qoute]

So the organizers are spending their “most of the times” jumping with you and no other inexperienced jumpers?
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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[qoute]I've been organized more than a few times by the advertised organizer[/qoute]

So the organizers are spending their “most of the times” jumping with you and no other inexperienced jumpers?



I don't consider myself inexperienced, but yes I do have a lot to learn. And from my experiences yes I do not see people with low numbers being organized. Maybe it is because the organizer is only putting together big way stuff, and yeah he/she doesn't want the whole dive to be hosed.

I really don't know the reason. It's never said oh the organizer is just doing large formations.
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[qoute]I've been organized more than a few times by the advertised organizer[/qoute]

So the organizers are spending their “most of the times” jumping with you and no other inexperienced jumpers?



I don't consider myself inexperienced, but yes I do have a lot to learn. And from my experiences yes I do not see people with low numbers being organized. Maybe it is because the organizer is only putting together big way stuff, and yeah he/she doesn't want the whole dive to be hosed.

I really don't know the reason. It's never said oh the organizer is just doing large formations.




Generally local organizers and coaches do a fine job with lower experienced jumpers. If experienced people want to do challenging, high level jumps, then a big name organizer is appropriate.

If an inexperienced jumper wants some high level coaching, then there are a bunch of skills camps around. Want to learn big-ways? Go to Kate & Tony's big way camps. Want to learn 4-way, go to an Airspeed camp...

We are lucky that folks like Airspeed, Kate & Tony, the GKs, etc. take the time with inexperienced jumpers. Major league baseball coaches don't coach little league, do they?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So you're saying that if a boogie advertises a big name organizer that they are there only to organize challenging, high level jumps.

I do understand and appreciate any organizer willing to take the time out to help lower jump numbers. At a boogie where it is advertised though, isn't that part of the boogie, probably part of your fee as well.

I get that it's hard to know how good a person is, and jumps numbers don't always do the job.

Why does organized have to mean huge dives, or 4 way with points?
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Pretty simple solution, really. If an organizer does a great job and works with *everyone* rather than just the "chosen people from upon high", brag about 'em here.

I'll get the ball rolling.

I think Scotty Carbone is the best organizer I've ever seen for fun-jumping belly flyers.

For CRW, I don't have a lot of experience but I have a hard time imagining anyone better than Wendy Faulkner.

Walt

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So you're saying that if a boogie advertises a big name organizer that they are there only to organize challenging, high level jumps.

?



NO, that is NOT what I wrote.

"A implies B" is not the same as "B implies A".

Or "I eat what I see" does not mean the same as "I see what I eat".
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So I'll stir it up today. I always see boogies advertising organizing by x, or y, or whoever and I wonder who cares.
Say the organizer is a FF, most of the time, from my experience is that the only people getting organized are the bad ass free flyers.
Say the organizer is a Belly flyer/RW. Most of the time it's the high jump number people getting organized.

I'm not saying this is how it is all the time, and I've been organized more than a few times by the advertised organizer.

I guess i'm wondering what everyone thinks about it. Do you say hey, x is organizing at that boogie I'm going?
I'm probably just talking out of my ass. [:/]

And before anyone flames, I did not say organizing is a bad thing!!!! or the organizers.



Just depends on the DZ... Z-hills always seem to have organizers for all skill levels. When I was there 11 years ago and only had a few hundred jumps, Boxman was my organizer. Lots of awesome 4 to 8 ways...
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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How many boogies have you been to? My experience with boogie organizing has been much different than yours.

If a boogie has one L.O. for a discipline I'd expect them to take on all comers (excepting those who don't have the basics of the discipline down yet - for example, I suck at head down and sitflying, so there's no way I would expect to get on an organized freefly jump). If there are multiple organizers I'd expect one to be putting together stuff for more skilled folks and another to be taking all comers. What I think are the "best" boogies have multiple organizers for both RW and freefly so that every jumper that wants to do organized stuff can, regardless of their skill levels.

The best organizers, regardless of discipline, take the skill levels of the people on the jump into account when they design the skydive. For example, it's kind of silly to plan 6 points with back-ins and piece turning on an RW jump at a boogie if even one or two people on the skydive have limited RW experience - that skydive isn't likely to complete. Far better to plan 3 or 4 points with everybody facing in and no big moves - that's a skydive that is likely to complete assuming that everyone has the basics down.

Freefly organizing doesn't have to be VRW. The best freefly organizers will throw a tracking dive, hoop dive or other "fun" skydive into the mix so that those with lesser freefly skills can play too.

Quality organizing isn't money for nothing and your jumps for free. Good L.O.'s work hard for their jumps. I don't see anything wrong with them wanting at least some of those jumps to be ones that offer a challenge for them too.

But then again, I don't go to boogies expecting to do quality skydives...

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Pretty simple solution, really. If an organizer does a great job and works with *everyone* rather than just the "chosen people from upon high", brag about 'em here.

I'll get the ball rolling.

I think Scotty Carbone is the best organizer I've ever seen for fun-jumping belly flyers.

For CRW, I don't have a lot of experience but I have a hard time imagining anyone better than Wendy Faulkner.

Walt



OK, to give an example:

At the late lamented WFFC, Roger Ponce was an advertized organizer. He was selective about who could join his group, and it was understood that the dives would be big, complex and challenging. I don't see that it would have helped anyone if people with 100 jumps were to be on those dives. He is one of very few people in the world that can organize such dives.

There were also people there specifically to organize the inexperienced jumpers. IMO it would have been a waste of Roger's talents for him to be doing 4 way drill dives at WFFC. Lots of people (even I) can organize 4-way drill dives for people with 100 jumps - you don't need a world class big-way organizer to do that.

If you are inexperienced and want to jump with big name people, go to one of the advertized skills camps that they run.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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At the late lamented WFFC, Roger Ponce was an advertized organizer. He was selective about who could join his group, and it was understood that the dives would be big, complex and challenging. I don't see that it would have helped anyone if people with 100 jumps were to be on those dives. He is one of very few people in the world that can organize such dives.

There were also people there specifically to organize the inexperienced jumpers. IMO it would have been a waste of Roger's talents for him to be doing 4 way drill dives at WFFC. Lots of people (even I) can organize 4-way drill dives for people with 100 jumps - you don't need a world class big-way organizer to do that.

If you are inexperienced and want to jump with big name people, go to one of the advertized skills camps that they run.



If that's the case, then it should be advertised as such. I don't care one bit about jumping with "big names" and I think most boogie-goers care more about having fun and learning more than they care about how famous the organizers are.

If a boogie or DZ advertises that they have load organizers, to me that implies that a jumper can go there alone, not knowing anyone, and get on some organized loads--regardless of skill level.

If the load organizers are only for the "chosen people" then the boogie organizer or DZO is doing his customers a disservice in my opinion.

BTW, your comments seem to imply that bigway organizers are automatically capable of doing a great job organizing "lesser" skydives with a broad mix of skill levels. I doubt that it true.

Walt

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BTW, your comments seem to imply that bigway organizers are automatically capable of doing a great job organizing "lesser" skydives with a broad mix of skill levels. I doubt that it true.



Bigway organizers don't pop from the womb with their current skill level. They started out just like the rest of us - putting together jumps for jumpers of all skill levels at their home dz's. Because they've chosen to focus their current organizing efforts on more complex skydives doesn't mean they've forgotten how to organize less complex skydives. :S

I agree with the Prof - it'd be a total waste of someone like Roger Ponce's skills to have him organizing a bunch of people with 100 jumps.

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So you're saying that if a boogie advertises a big name organizer that they are there only to organize challenging, high level jumps.

?



NO, that is NOT what I wrote.

"A implies B" is not the same as "B implies A".

Or "I eat what I see" does not mean the same as "I see what I eat".




Well what are you saying when you say

"If experienced people want to do challenging, high level jumps, then a big name organizer is appropriate."

certainly there are organizers out there, that are not big name that can organize the same type of jumps.

What I do see you saying is that the lower inexperienced people need to go to a clinic. What if they just want to do some larger ways, or some organized formations? Maybe the DZ they jump at usually doesn't have enough people to get that done. So they go to a boogie and try to get organized and because they didn't bring a large group with them they end up jumping alone, or with others in the same boat. Yet they go unorganized as they are not good enough for the big name organizers formations.

I'm not saying that is always how it is. As stated some organizers do a great job with the whole deal.
I won't even comment on my organizing experience at WFFC last year when I went. Lucky for me Carl Dougherty said sure you want in get in. Not once did he ask me how many jumps I had either.
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I agree with the Prof - it'd be a total waste of someone like Roger Ponce's skills to have him organizing a bunch of people with 100 jumps.



Actually he does that regularly at my DZ. Well, pretty much all skill levels anyway. Been rained out both times he was supposed to come so far this year.

I went to a boogie that had a big way event a few years ago. The bigway was invite-only, but they had another big name organizer just for newbies. At one point I did a really fun 3-way drill dive with him.

I think the name of the organizer starts to matter a lot more after you've met a few of em. Every organizer has a different style, and some people are going to have more fun with certain organizers and not others. If you don't know who they are, their names don't matter. They also tend to do different styles of jumps. Some will have a lot of flying with a partner for example, others are going to have more solo flying. I've found that I really enjoy some organizing styles more than others.

Dave

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Are you being argumnetative to start a flame fest???

Listen, some boogies have dedicated org's for high end dives. Some boogies just have a group of org's for all jumpers, and they mix it up with all levels. Some have a combination of invite only jumps with walk ups.

The WWF example with Roger is perfect: you needed to perform to get on the Color Concept dives. They werent there for people to learn. At the same time, you had Windsor and Bill Von doing low experience jumps.

In the end, its up to you. Do some research (ie, call the DZ and ask what the org's will be doing).

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What I do see you saying is that the lower inexperienced people need to go to a clinic.



No. He said they could go to a camp. And if you think these arent fun, well, never mind....

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What if they just want to do some larger ways, or some organized formations?



Thats cool. Most boogies I've been to had that. I can garantee you will have more fun if you get better at them tho.

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or with others in the same boat



Thats the key isnt it. As a boogie goer, I wont spend all day doing 20 ways with people who cant get to one in time, or cant fly their slot. Sorry, but I'd rather spend my $200 some other way.
Remster

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No i'm not be argumentative. I simply wanted to know what people thought of organizers, especially ones adverstised for boogies.

He did say lower numbers could go to camps, but he also didn't offer alternatives if they didn't/couldn't go to a camp. I never said a camp wasn't fun either.

And i agree with you that you aren't going to do 20 ways all day with people that can't make it in. That is why the organizer needs to say listen, it's just not your day. You should get a jump to try, and jump to correct, and if by then you are still messing up, well you got 2 tries in, maybe tommorrow.

and you said boobies:D:D

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So you're saying that if a boogie advertises a big name organizer that they are there only to organize challenging, high level jumps.

?



NO, that is NOT what I wrote.

"A implies B" is not the same as "B implies A".

Or "I eat what I see" does not mean the same as "I see what I eat".




Well what are you saying when you say

"If experienced people want to do challenging, high level jumps, then a big name organizer is appropriate."

certainly there are organizers out there, that are not big name that can organize the same type of jumps.

Organizing a 150 way is NOT something anyone can do, sorry. Anyone that has demonstrated the ability to do this is going to get a big name. Right now I'm co-organizing my first 66 way, and it is a LOT of work.

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What I do see you saying is that the lower inexperienced people need to go to a clinic.

You would do better to read what I DID write rather than telling me what you suppose I wrote.

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What if they just want to do some larger ways, or some organized formations?

Fine, that's how you learn. But inexperienced people on big ways can be very dangerous, which is why there's usually a filter of some kind. That's also why big way camps are organized.

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Maybe the DZ they jump at usually doesn't have enough people to get that done. So they go to a boogie and try to get organized and because they didn't bring a large group with them they end up jumping alone, or with others in the same boat. Yet they go unorganized as they are not good enough for the big name organizers formations.

I'm not saying that is always how it is. As stated some organizers do a great job with the whole deal.
I won't even comment on my organizing experience at WFFC last year when I went. Lucky for me Carl Dougherty said sure you want in get in. Not once did he ask me how many jumps I had either.



Ask before you go how it will be when you get there. Then you won't be surpised. A good boogie will have organizers for all skill levels.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>Say the organizer is a Belly flyer/RW. Most of the time it's the high
> jump number people getting organized.

Depends on the event/DZ. At Rantoul Amy and I organized for the <500 jump people and some of the other organizers (Buddha, Lemonhead) would organize for the more experienced people. At Perris, Darryld and Mark Brown take people at any level, unless they're doing a bigway camp or something. At most DZ's I've been to, asking manifest for a low time RW organizer will result in getting an organizer.

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Organizing a 150 way is NOT something anyone can do, sorry. Anyone that has demonstrated the ability to do this is going to get a big name. Right now I'm co-organizing my first 66 way, and it is a LOT of work.



I never said anything about a 150 way. I have seen organizers super picky about a 16 way, boogie organizers.

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Fine, that's how you learn. But inexperienced people on big ways can be very dangerous, which is why there's usually a filter of some kind. That's also why big way camps are organized.



And because you said I would do well to read what you wrote, you should do the same. I never said inexperienced people should be on big ways.


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Ask before you go how it will be when you get there. Then you won't be surpised. A good boogie will have organizers for all skill levels.



And so people can predict the future now. Perfect example of that is WFFC when I went. One should have been able to get organized there despite their jump numbers. That was definitely not so, sorry Billvon, but a friend and I more than once tried to get organized and were brushed off. We waited an hour and a half because we were told to. Yet both organizers in that tent never made an attempt to get us on a dive.

I think I'll take the advice though and start calling and asking hey what exactly is the organizer going to be there for? How are dives going to be organized? What skill levels are targeted? Although, in my opinion at a boogie, all skill levels of RW and FF should be taken care of. It just seems that isn't always so.
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I don't care one bit about jumping with "big names" and I think most boogie-goers care more about having fun and learning more than they care about how famous the organizers are.



But Walt, you are a big name...

And you are right, (most) boogie-goers want to have fun. Lots of beer (or you fill in you choice of mood enhansers), good times and good friends, nekkid bodies in the pool/pond, a boozeluge or two and hardcore hangovers.

Big-ways are just a bunch of small ways put together anyway right? But what the hell do I know? My favorite kind of dive is a two way, me and a student on a first release dive, second favorite is anything involving a bunch of fellow skydivers (friends) just out to have fun and I have never once traveled to a boogie to jump with a specific individual, but to have fun. All that organizing is for them serious experienced skydivers wanting to strut their stuff on jump # 201...

Someone throwing a fit cuz they couldent get on a load with so and so is just whinning cuz dey didnt get their way, they better never go to a guitar clinic with Yngwie, they will just be dissapointed. Seems rampant in skydiving these days...
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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The closest DZ to where I live claims they have organizing, but I'll be damned if I have seen any. Even at their boogie.

I recently visited Skydive Chicago, and the orginizers there were great. When I stated my jump numbers they simply said well you will have one more. Put together a 4-way with video, and it was coolness. The next days the Furies were organizing, and I got into a cool 3 -way
Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
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That was definitely not so, sorry Billvon, but a friend and I more than once tried to get organized and were brushed off. We waited an hour and a half because we were told to. Yet both organizers in that tent never made an attempt to get us on a dive.




Maybe they knew you sucked.:P:D

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That was definitely not so, sorry Billvon, but a friend and I more than once tried to get organized and were brushed off. We waited an hour and a half because we were told to. Yet both organizers in that tent never made an attempt to get us on a dive.




Maybe they knew you sucked.:P:D


oh yeah, just because I miffed one or two of your dives!!!!!!!

At least you let me on them, took the time to let me on them.

You rock spence!!!!

Hopefully I can mess up more of your dives in the future:D:D
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I was planning some fucked up dives for this weekend but that had to be changed.

As to you OP. There are many issues here. Alot of times it's the organizers rep on the line. If people start saying they suck on DZ.com they won't get invited to other events. Also sometimes you end up with a highly experienced group and you kind of owe it to them to try to make the dives work. Then there is the safety issues. You can really get a bad rep if people start dieing on your dives.I have been to boogies where the organizer had a group together by 9am and that was it. That is no way to organize at a boogie IMO. I do agree with you that alot of DZOs need to address this when they are advertising organizers for whatever discipline.

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