Petition to support a BSR change to reduce canopy fatalities

[Spizzzarko 0]

"That should make you feel more comfortable since "you obviously are incapable of fucking up while swooping.""

Now Walt... Did I say that? I am just as capable as you of making a mistake on landing. Please don't put words in my mouth as I have not put words in yours.


"A fucked up swoop can easily kill someone."

Yup you are correct. Pay your twenty dollars and take your chances just like everyone else. Now what about the person who never swoops and makes a turn to avoid something or someone and takes another person out. Where they performing a "fucked up swoop"? You see it can swing both ways and a lot of the language used in these discussions are fairly one sided by saying that swoopers are causing all of the problems.

[Spizzzarko 0]

"If the HP and standard patterns are separated, the risk of a mistake leading to a fatality is going to be reduced, regardless of who makes a mistake."

I agree with you on that and seperating the landing areas would be ideal but then you should also seperate the airspace above those landing areas too. I feel a complete segregation of airspace and a shit ton of education for the masses would be the logical conclusion of this issue if you really wanted to get at the root cause of this.


"I HAVE been hit (at 100' agl) from above and behind, by someone flying non-standard pattern. I would prefer that it doesn't happen again."

I am truely sorry that happened to you but what I have a hard time with is the catagorization of all swoopers as being canopy fuckups like the one who hit you or who flew past mollyo.

[Spizzzarko 0]

"it *should* open your eyes...but it won't, I'm sure."

"but you go ahead and willfully misconstrue what's being said so you can try to claim some sort of moral high ground all you want."

What the fuck is wrong with you? I have no beef with you. I have never met you in person, and I'm sure you have never met me so take your little barbed remarks and go to some other discusion with them. You are doing nothing but making yourself look like a jack ass. The language you use and the wording in your posts are very antagonistic, and frankly I don't wish to continue to discuss this subject with you.

[waltappel 1]

My opinion only here. I think some swoopers, you included, are feeling as if all of swooping is under attack. I genuinely don't think that is true.

If someone made a drastic low turn to avoid an object and died and you were to say, some dipshit bellyflyer spanked in because he didn't know to fly his canopy, I wouldn't consider that remark to apply to all bellyflyers. Not even close.

Trust me--I don't consider all swoopers to be like Danny Page. If I did, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to say so and I would be very blunt about it.

I am not a participant in swooping but I'm all for it coexisting with other skydiving disciplines--safely.

edited to add:

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Yup you are correct. Pay your twenty dollars and take your chances just like everyone else.

Taking a chance on getting taken out by someone who is flying like an idiot (whether in freefall or under canopy) ain't part of the deal, IMO.

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Now what about the person who never swoops and makes a turn to avoid something or someone and takes another person out. Where they performing a "fucked up swoop"?

Nope.

Walt

[mnealtx 0]

When you tell someone they're 'talking out of their ass' for making a valid point, you can't whine too much when they're sarcastic back to you.

Like it or not, the skydiving community as a whole sees people who do high performance landing as swoopers. The label is already there, for good or bad, and trying to deflect blame to 'those other guys' or to make it sound like your clique is being unfairly persecuted isn't adding anything to the discussion.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skinnyshrek 0]

I hope we never see another danny page incident. But there are big name organizersout there who still do a danny. In fact at Dublin 3 years ago we had this big name hooh down wind almost wrapped 3 other canopies landing into the wind. Then proceeded to bitch at these people for fucking up his swoop..dickhead. These kind of people are not classed as swoopers.. For the most part i have seen the swoopers be very careful, maybe it is just at the ropzone i frequent. I am sure not all true swoopers want to be compared to as a danny

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Spizzzarko 0]

"These kind of people are not classed as swoopers.. For the most part i have seen the swoopers be very careful, maybe it is just at the ropzone i frequent. I am sure not all true swoopers want to be compared to as a danny"

You are right! We don't! Most of those who are true swoop pureists are VERY cautious and it sucks to be lumped into the same group as those who are dangerous. That is what I have heartache about in these discussions.

[mirage62 0]

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You are right! We don't! Most of those who are true swoop pureists are VERY cautious and it sucks to be lumped into the same group as those who are dangerous. That is what I have heartache about in these discussions.

Good point, question has the skydiving community done a good job educating the dangerous swoopers? No. Has the swooping community -The good ones like you - done a good job of getting on the ass of the bad ones? You know self regulation doesn't seem to be happening

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[skinnyshrek 0]

just because danny had 8000+ jumps it didn't make him a swooper. He just swooped in traffic which is a huge no no in bigway.
I like to swoop, love it. I also know when not to execute a HP landing. It sucks, but i would rather land and make the next load than kill myself and some innocent skydiver due to my arrogance and sellfishness.
I think for the most part people are using the swooper term for the idiots that cut people off in pattern to get their kick. These idiots in my belief are not real swoopers.
In my experience, swoopers like their own space. They need it as mostly their set up is between 9-1100 ft.
I was attacking the pond some time when this fucking idiot flew a straight in approach just so he could land by the pond. At the dropzone it is well noted that the pond mainly is for swoopers. It usually is very well organized. For the BSR to work properly, everyone has to be on the same page.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[mirage62 0]

From my home dz:

Canopy Flight Rules B.O.B. A recent Georgia accident involving 2 highly experienced jumpers having a mid air collision has enlightened the skydiving community as to the need for new rules of the road to go along with todays ultra-high performance canopies & high-performance landing techniques. Visiting jumpers, under very specific & very limited circumstances please get the details from DZ mngmnt, prior to jumping. B.O.B. If you don't know, means Because of Bob. Bob Holler one of our former instructors was innocently killed at an out-of-state skydiving event by another jumper making a high performance landing into other canopy traffic. This is forbidden under all circumstances..

I guess thats another dz that the vast number of people who have to do 270's in traffic will never come to again.

Or it could be that guys like BRIAN MC NENNEY who is swooping today has no problem following a few simple rules from the DZO - and I promise Brain isn't doing 90's.

I miss Bob.

Fortson Rumble

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[waltappel 1]

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I hope we never see another danny page incident. But there are big name organizersout there who still do a danny. In fact at Dublin 3 years ago we had this big name hooh down wind almost wrapped 3 other canopies landing into the wind. Then proceeded to bitch at these people for fucking up his swoop..dickhead. These kind of people are not classed as swoopers.. For the most part i have seen the swoopers be very careful, maybe it is just at the ropzone i frequent. I am sure not all true swoopers want to be compared to as a danny

Was it Guy Wright?

Walt

[skinnyshrek 0]

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You are right! We don't! Most of those who are true swoop pureists are VERY cautious and it sucks to be lumped into the same group as those who are dangerous. That is what I have heartache about in these discussions.

Good point, question has the skydiving community done a good job educating the dangerous swoopers? No. Has the swooping community -The good ones like you - done a good job of getting on the ass of the bad ones? You know self regulation doesn't seem to be happening

Up at the farm it is. no matter how much money yu spend, you will be getting an ass chewing. because for the regulars it is unacceptable. Also, to swoopers who are just dedicating their jumps to swooping. They pay their slot hnpops mainly. It pisses them off when you have someone flying a straight in approach over the designated swoop area

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[mnealtx 0]

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I think for the most part people are using the swooper term for the idiots that cut people off in pattern to get their kick. These idiots in my belief are not real swoopers.

I think that is the *new* definition, perhaps... maybe RS for 'regular' swoopers and FS for 'fucktard' swoopers?

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For the BSR to work properly, everyone has to be on the same page.

I agree, because it makes all the DZs make a plan to separate traffic. To me, that is the MAIN advantage of the proposal because, as you said, it gets everyone on the same page.

My thoughts:
DZ's need to have the landing areas AND standard pattern directions (RH or LH pattern, default landing direction, etc) plotted out on their overhead maps and new jumpers need to be *BRIEFED* on them, not just "go check the map". Or, at the very least, have a printed briefing posted with the overhead map that gives all the info.

If it's a small DZ and they have to separate by time and not space, then the brief and map should show that and have the appropriate guidelines plainly spelled out, as well.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[popsjumper 2]

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Kate Cooper D-7333 USPA 8944

I support this petition.

Large DZ, Small DZ. It is EVERYONE's responsibility to enforce safety in the landing pattern. This proposal will lay the ground work for allowing this to happen. Things are changing. This is NOT anti-Swooper or Big-way or Accuracy. It is PRO-safety.

In a few years people will (hopefully) wonder why patterns were routinely mixed in a haphazard manner as they safely perform the manuevers they wish to in the correct landing areas.

Hopefully.

blue skies and PEACE

kate

Well said, Kate.

Add me in support of the BSR proposal

Andy USPA 194971

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kallend 1,623]

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just because danny had 8000+ jumps it didn't make him a swooper. He just swooped in traffic which is a huge no no in bigway.
I like to swoop, love it. I also know when not to execute a HP landing. It sucks, but i would rather land and make the next load than kill myself and some innocent skydiver due to my arrogance and sellfishness.
I think for the most part people are using the swooper term for the idiots that cut people off in pattern to get their kick. These idiots in my belief are not real swoopers.
In my experience, swoopers like their own space. They need it as mostly their set up is between 9-1100 ft.
I was attacking the pond some time when this fucking idiot flew a straight in approach just so he could land by the pond. At the dropzone it is well noted that the pond mainly is for swoopers. It usually is very well organized. For the BSR to work properly, everyone has to be on the same page.

Seems like a re-definition of "swooper" to exclude anyone doing something stupid. A neat way of ensuring that swoopers can do no wrong.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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just because danny had 8000+ jumps it didn't make him a swooper. He just swooped in traffic which is a huge no no in bigway.
I like to swoop, love it. I also know when not to execute a HP landing. It sucks, but i would rather land and make the next load than kill myself and some innocent skydiver due to my arrogance and sellfishness.
I think for the most part people are using the swooper term for the idiots that cut people off in pattern to get their kick. These idiots in my belief are not real swoopers.
In my experience, swoopers like their own space. They need it as mostly their set up is between 9-1100 ft.
I was attacking the pond some time when this fucking idiot flew a straight in approach just so he could land by the pond. At the dropzone it is well noted that the pond mainly is for swoopers. It usually is very well organized. For the BSR to work properly, everyone has to be on the same page.

Seems like a re-definition of "swooper" to exclude anyone doing something stupid. A neat way of ensuring that swoopers can do no wrong.

How many responsible swoopers have you spoke to besides posting on here kallend?

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[popsjumper 2]

I would think responsible swoopers would be supporting a BSR mandating separate landing areas (time and/or space).

Keeps them away from all the pattern nutjobs doing stupid stuff of any sort and keeps them all together so they could more easily police their own.

If any landing disciplines HAD to be mixed together, I would feel much better sharing with accuracy than swooping.


Oh, and...
All you guys supporting education. Good stuff! That's a given in ANY event. It's NOT a one vs the other situation. It's Education AND separate landing areas (time and/or space).

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

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Seems like a re-definition of "swooper" to exclude anyone doing something stupid. A neat way of ensuring that swoopers can do no wrong.

I don't have an issue with it.

However, I like 4-way. But, when any 4 people get together and they can't do a double vertical and make the catches, and if they can't launch clean, and they can't turn more than 25 points on a simple all random skydive - I'd like people to not refer to that group as a "4-way". It makes my favorite discipline look bad. Let's refer to them as "4-newbies in training."

Also, I like freeflying. But, when a couple people launch and can't make any docks or stay on their heads as long as they want, or can't keep from backsliding while upright - We can't call them "freeflyers". Let's reserve that term for people that REALLY freefly. The thrashers we should call "unstable wannabes", they can change their label after a few hundred more practice jumps and some 'education'. I don't want that image in my 2nd favorite discipline.

Also, I like CrW. But, if anyone want to show up with canopy hanging out of their rigs on the walk to the plane. Unwashed, with sandwiches and beer in their pockets for the trip with the expectation to grab nylon and climb about on top canopies and have a great time, well then.......God, I really love CrW.

Edit: I think people are going out of their way to NOT make this a swoopers vs everyone else set of communications. Having no-value-added discussion from people that can't get this through their heads is really tiring. I think the "cone above the landing area should be separate also" is a great contribution tucked in between the pointless label comments - which I've just contributed to - pointlessly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[marks 0]

you know what. I have always respected you but your remarks are becoming assanine.

danny was a big way belly flier who half assly knew how to fly a canopy, and was arrogent enough to perform a half ass low turn to final when he shouldn't.

your focus would be much better off if it was to the big way organisers forcing them to back up the fact that only standard patterns are allowed during big ways.

this was not a swooping accident in my opinion. it was a big way accident.

[wmw999 2,120]

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this was not a swooping accident in my opinion. it was a big way accident.

He was swooping his canopy during a big way event. It shows that mixing the two is not a good idea.

Do we find a way to enforce not mixing the two, or do we continue to say it's a bad idea.

I still think this is kind of like racing cars. Street racers aren't "real" racers, but they still go really, really fast, they sometimes to it in places where they shouldn't, mostly they hurt themselves, and sometimes they take other people out.

Quibbling about what they're called doesn't help. Saying that freeways should police themselves better doesn't help. Having a speed limit law that depends on the road and situation around it helps, but not all the time.

Some people are stupid and pigheaded. No one thinks that AJ Foyt is like some moron street racer. But "racing" is what they do, and until you come up with a term for swoopers who focus on that, and do exercise control, the term is going to be mixed up with the people who do stupid shit in traffic.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[hukturn 0]

It sounds as though there are several DZ's which already have plans in place and who take these matters seriously. I am hearing of more and more
DZ's policies which address this issue. And, it seems that many of these policies have been in place prior to the spike in incidents. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that many DZ's take it seriously and there would be no need for a BSR.

BTW - I do not believe it is fair to lump Danny into the unsafe pile. In fact, Danny was a very conscientious skydiver and extremely safe. He may
have made an error in judgement but that does not warrant condemning him. ALL of us WILL make mistakes. Some small, some big. And, your mistakes may very well take someones life. That does not make you unsafe. It means that you made a mistake...nothing more. I do not believe that we can devalue an entire life simply because of one mistake. I am sorry that this accident happened and I miss my friend. But, this is a hesteful reaction to a spike in incidents of this type. I agree that something needs to be done...but it should be up to the DZ's to determine how they plan to handle it.

[wmw999 2,120]

Swooping in bigway traffic, particularly when requested not to, is unsafe behavior.

That doesn't make him a bad person, but his being a good guy doesn't make the behavior safe.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[winsor 186]

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you know what. I have always respected you but your remarks are becoming assanine.

danny was a big way belly flier who half assly knew how to fly a canopy, and was arrogent enough to perform a half ass low turn to final when he shouldn't.

your focus would be much better off if it was to the big way organisers forcing them to back up the fact that only standard patterns are allowed during big ways.

this was not a swooping accident in my opinion. it was a big way accident.

Sandy Wambach was a big-way accident. Her death was directly attributable to execution of a big-way.

Danny and Bob died by virtue of a swoop accident. Danny chose to swoop at a time when some of us might have suggested a more conservative approach.

The whole point of the BSR is to ensure that swooping does not take place in traffic, as far as I can tell.

The racing analogy is a good one. Nobody is suggesting that Jeff Gordon is not an extremely talented driver, or that he should go slower on the race track (okay, maybe his competitors might prefer it if he was to back off a tad...), but I can not think of anyone who would recommend that he should be able to go balls to the wall through residential neighborhoods or commuter traffic - regardless of his skill level.

Shrill arguments to the effect that Real Race Drivers (tm) should not be subjected to restrictions (since the problem is obviously with wannabes) miss the point entirely. If responsible Real Race Drivers (tm) do not drive like maniacs in normal traffic, rules forbidding people driving like maniace in normal traffic do not affect them.

Similarly, the hue and cry regarding a rule that says that in the pattern you must fly the pattern is nonsensical. What, you are saying that it is an infringement on your rights if you do not have the "freedom" to whoosh past slowpokes at your discretion? Or that Real Swoopers (tm) can avoid anything in their path by virtue of their superhuman skills? Neither concept is worthy of serious consideration.

Formula One races take place on normal roads, and the Blue Angels routinely perform aerobatics through areas where aircraft are normally required to adhere to traffic pattern rules. In each case, by dedicating the roads or airspace to the intended purpose for a specific period of time, a completely different set of rules may prevail with relative safety.

Similarly, the whole DZ can be dedicated to high-performance canopy flight ONLY on particular loads or for specified times. This achieves a separation in time, instead of space, at a locale that does not allow separate landing areas.

If people would back off on the heated rhetoric, I imagine that swoopers of every description would prefer to be able to fly without fear of rear-ending someone sinking in a Para Foil, and people in the pattern would be relieved to be able to focus on a nice, safe landing instead of worrying about being blindsided by someone who didn't quite clear their airspace during setup.

In the same sense that driving through a residential neighborhood at 103 mph is unacceptable, even if you are Micheal Schumacher in a Ferrari F1, it is unacceptable to fly at 87 mph through the pattern, even if you are Luigi Cani under a VX-39.

My guess is that it is only people who think they are Michael Schumacher or Luigi Cani who think they should be able to go as fast as they want wherever they want.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[kkeenan 13]

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...I do not believe it is fair to lump Danny into the unsafe pile...
ALL of us WILL make mistakes. Some small, some big. And, your mistakes may very well take someones life. That does not make you unsafe. It means that you made a mistake...nothing more.

I really don't want to start this all over again, but I have issues with your statement.

Yes, we all make mistakes. However, I feel that the definition of being safe is making the effort to NOT make mistakes that will endanger anyone. Danny Page did not make that effort. He INTENTIONALLY initiated a maneuver that had a high liklihood of causing an accident. That, in my opinion, is the very definition of UNSAFE. On that day, at that time, DP was an unsafe skydiver.

I know he was a friend to many, and this will probably start another round of the discussion we had previously. I'm sure you knew that when you brought it up again. You are not going to get away, on this thread or any other, saying that DP "just made a mistake". That's total Bullshit.

Kevin Keenan
Titusville FL

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[winsor 186]

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It sounds as though there are several DZ's which already have plans in place and who take these matters seriously. I am hearing of more and more
DZ's policies which address this issue. And, it seems that many of these policies have been in place prior to the spike in incidents. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that many DZ's take it seriously and there would be no need for a BSR.

BTW - I do not believe it is fair to lump Danny into the unsafe pile. In fact, Danny was a very conscientious skydiver and extremely safe. He may
have made an error in judgement but that does not warrant condemning him. ALL of us WILL make mistakes. Some small, some big. And, your mistakes may very well take someones life. That does not make you unsafe. It means that you made a mistake...nothing more. I do not believe that we can devalue an entire life simply because of one mistake. I am sorry that this accident happened and I miss my friend. But, this is a hesteful reaction to a spike in incidents of this type. I agree that something needs to be done...but it should be up to the DZ's to determine how they plan to handle it.

I call bullshit.

A blanket rule that says that you can not drive at unlimited speeds in residential areas does not infringe on much of anyone's rights.

Saying that each neighborhood should have their own way of keeping children from being run over and cars from crashing into living rooms is not what I would call an enlightened solution. Regardless of how a few DZs have made improvements, saying that it is not okay to fly like a maniac through traffic anywhere is probably a good thing.

I knew Danny before you made your first jump. He was not "extremely safe;" he made an active decision to push his luck one time too many and got himself and an innocent killed.

Just because he was a long-time friend of mine does not change the nature of his error. He did not make an honest mistake, he chose do do something that was dangerous as hell - and turned out to be quite fatal.

If I do something stupid and get someone else killed in the process, I don't want people to focus on how bright I may have otherwise been, or to engage in denial regarding the stupidity of my actions.

There are people I dislike intensely, but grudgingly accept their positive contributions. There are people of whom I am very fond, but do not support everything they may do.

I miss Danny greatly, and there is a void created by his absence. Nevertheless, his demise was the direct result of his own unsafe actions and, had he acted safely and conscientiously, neither he nor Bob Hollar would have died.


Blue skies,

Winsor