waltappel 1 #1 July 7, 2007 I'm not being sarcastic here. For real. I was talking with a friend who brought up the question of whether resistance to the proposed BSR to separate HP and conventional landings by time/space is at least partially due to concern over who has to walk furthest to the hangar. It's obviously a moot point for scenarios where the patterns are separated by time. But what about where they are separated by having different areas to land? Since there are fewer jumpers doing HP landings it seems like they would be relegated to landing further away from the hangar and spectators. I've never seen a swoop pond next to the hangar so I don't know whether swoopers care or not about the walk back to the hangar. Do you think the potential for a longer walk is a factor in some jumpers' resistance to the proposed BSR? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #2 July 7, 2007 I think it's possible, as well as being away from any 'audience' (so to speak). I also think it will be a subconscious reason and not something that they actively think of as a reason if you asked them directly.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #3 July 8, 2007 It already happens,responsible swoopers prefer to land alone. I've heard that some Eloy regulars are now landing out..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #4 July 8, 2007 Overall, I think that RW guys and gals need the exercise more than swoopers, but the swoopers do not have the presence in numbers or on back to back loads as the RW folks, at least what I have observed in my limited experience. So the swoopers should be the opposite of Christopher Reeves.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hukturn 0 #5 July 8, 2007 I think that it should be dictated by the DZ. I mean, they know what will work locally. Only they know if they are flying loads cointaining more RW, Freefly, et cetera. In addition, it may be a scenario where it should be changed, based upon load content. So, to set a hard and fast rule may cause more problems that it fixes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vectracide 0 #6 July 8, 2007 I don't understand why this would even be an issue at most DZ's. All you have to apply to your decision is safety. Swoopers go longer and faster....put the HP landing area where you have the room, and the RW in an area that fits their canopy habits. Who really gives a shit who lands closest. If this is even an issue for you,(not you walt), you don't deserve to vote on the issue and need to think about others besides yourself. I'm a swooper, and if it came down to a longer walk to swoop vs. no swooping at all... I'll take the walk. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #7 July 8, 2007 Quote...I'm a swooper, and if it came down to a longer walk to swoop vs. no swooping at all... I'll take the walk. Now this is a refreshing, mature attitude regardless of landing discipline preference.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 July 8, 2007 Quote Overall, I think that RW guys and gals need the exercise more than swoopers... Oh wait...there's a grain of truth in that... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #9 July 8, 2007 QuoteI think it's possible, as well as being away from any 'audience' (so to speak). I get the distinct impression that much of the naysaying stems from that...and much of the problems causing the issue in the first place.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlipColmer 0 #10 July 8, 2007 Hello Mike! QuoteQuoteI think it's possible, as well as being away from any 'audience' (so to speak). Since man, or woman, first took to the sky, someone has always tried to impress someone on the ground with their aerial skills. I certainly have and it paid off well the other night: I had a great home cooked meal by the target of my affections. There's no doubt that some of that 'flat hatting' mentality is in play here. And, there is nothing wrong with that. Each DZ will sort it out based on their own locality. When I came screaming out of the sky at my home DZ, I took the long walk to keep out of the area where everyone was trying to land. That was just me. However, for viewing pleasure of those on the ground, I would love to see the swoop course close to the spectator area. Again, that's just me. Each DZO will sort it out. Or they won't. Blue SKies, Flip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #11 July 9, 2007 >Do you think the potential for a longer walk is a factor in some jumpers' >resistance to the proposed BSR? Perhaps - although in my "ideal" world the swoop area would be closest to the spectator area, which is usually near the packing area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #12 July 9, 2007 Quote Quote Overall, I think that RW guys and gals need the exercise more than swoopers... Oh wait...there's a grain of truth in that... Freefall discipline has nothing to do with whether one swoops or not. It's an idiotic tease. The shortest walk? That will align with whether the DZO likes to do HPLs or not (DZO makes the rules per the BSR - or what the BSR evolves to if it happens) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #13 July 9, 2007 As I've been shaking off the rust from my shoulder injury and visiting places again, it seems like quite a few have taken it on themselves to come up with solutions and KISS (keep it simple stupid) seems to be doing a good job. I went to San Diego for the first time and they 'separate' the two landing areas by a string of flags, with the swoopers landing closer and the rest a mere 10 yards further out. Everyone does left hand 90s to come in, but the swoopers finish with a right hand 270. They have an advantage of a typical coastal breeze, but seemed to work and they fly an otter. Supports the notion that talking about this subject is productive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cocheese 0 #14 July 9, 2007 If a swooper swoops way out near the woods where nobody can hear or see it, does it make sound?I thought the whole idea of the swoop was to scare the spectators and to walk the least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #15 July 9, 2007 >Everyone does left hand 90s to come in, but the swoopers finish with a right hand 270. Yep, seems to work well. One caveat is that the pattern is flown over the runway; that's not safe to do at many DZ's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 July 10, 2007 Quote'separate' the two landing areas by a string of flags, with the swoopers landing closer and the rest a mere 10 yards further out. Everyone does left hand 90s to come in, but the swoopers finish with a right hand 270. They have an advantage of a typical coastal breeze, but seemed to work and they fly an otter. That sounds backwards, since the swoopers are coming in from above and overtaking, they should continue deeper into the base leg (past those turning 90) and then do the 270 - with the 90's turning short. If the 270's turn short, then they'd descend into those doing 90's. And this also assumes everyone is landing into the wind, or at least in the same direction. But at least the whole load follows the same pattern lanes. (unless by 'closer', you just mean a shorter walk - that should be determined by whichever way the wind is coming from) other than that, it's pretty clever if everyone is clear about it 10 yards isn't much of a safety margin in case anyone has to bail out of their lanes for any reason. edit: Oops, my artistry shows a right hand pattern and the poster noted left hand. but the idea is the same. If the building is at the top of the page, then the 90's land "closer", if at the bottom of the page, then the 270's land "closer". This example reads as the wind is from the left and everyone agrees to the right turn pattern. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #17 July 10, 2007 We have a similar landing pattern at Pitt Meadows. The only difference is that swoopers usually turn on to base leg (cross wind) much sooner, so that keeps them upwind of the pea gravel bowl (that everyone else aims for). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #18 July 10, 2007 A major advantage of landing close to the hangar is that - some days - really NASTY rotors roll off the hangar, which makes for really scary landings, which really scare spectators! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #19 July 10, 2007 QuoteA major advantage of landing close to the hangar is that - some days - really NASTY rotors roll off the hangar, which makes for really scary landings, which really scare spectators! That brings up a good point. Is it really such a good idea to have the swoop area close to the spectators? I believe one DZ has already had a spectator death from a botched swoop and it's undeniable that swoops gone bad is a major cause of fatalities in our sport. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #20 July 10, 2007 Quoteedit: Oops, my artistry shows a right hand pattern and the poster noted left hand. but the idea is the same. If the building is at the top of the page, then the 90's land "closer", if at the bottom of the page, then the 270's land "closer". This example reads as the wind is from the left and everyone agrees to the right turn pattern. other than the left right reverse, your diagram shows it exactly. Not sure I understand the objections you opened the post with. The 270s do go deeper in the base leg. The spectators are safe in this location - there is a fence (actually a covered open air structure where the packing is done on the other side of the swooping lane. Only one gap to get through. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #21 July 10, 2007 QuoteNot sure I understand the objections you opened the post with. Because your initial post on the subject didn't say who turned onto final first...now that you've cleared that up, it makes sense (at least to me)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #22 July 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteNot sure I understand the objections you opened the post with. Because your initial post on the subject didn't say who turned onto final first...now that you've cleared that up, it makes sense (at least to me) yup - "and the rest a mere 10 yards further out" implies the the 'rest' went deeper into the base leg. Which is the wrong inference. But people have done worse things before just to save 10 extra walking yards. As the reader, I had no idea where KD's building was located. Now that it's clear, I think it's a good idea if enforceable. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #23 July 11, 2007 QuoteDo you think the potential for a longer walk is a factor in some jumpers' resistance to the proposed BSR? If you asked people to their face, they'd probably say no (and probably think they're telling the truth), but I've been around the sport long enough to know that the answer is an emphatic YES!! The other problem is people just don't give a shit. My DZ has implemented separate landing areas. Both areas are far from the hanger and require a truck to pick them up. The truck usually sits near the border of the two areas, and therefore in theory noone has a longer walk. But guess what?... People STILL land wherever they feel like. The few swoopers (I am one) usually land in the appropriate area... not always, but usually. The non-swoopers (easily 90%+ of the jumpers) so far have not been good at all about staying in their area (which, I might add, is about 3 times as large). I don't mind a longer walk myself... it's a good saftey precaution, and swoopers who violate landing patterns or separate landing areas are out of line. But non-swoopers frequently aren't helping, and that behavior is starting to erode their current moral high ground."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #24 July 12, 2007 >But non-swoopers frequently aren't helping, and that behavior is >starting to erode their current moral high ground. ?? Neither "side" has any "moral high ground." Both swoopers and non-swoopers have been killed by incompatible-pattern collisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #25 July 12, 2007 Quote?? Neither "side" has any "moral high ground." Both swoopers and non-swoopers have been killed by incompatible-pattern collisions. Maybe I should say "percieved moral high ground". There's definately a prevailing view that the swoopers are intentionally engaging in behavior that raises the risk to non-swoopers (sadly often true), and thus the swoopers need to modify their behavior (again, true). All I'm saying is that when modifications are put in place for the saftey of everyone and NOONE follows them, including non-swoopers, that perception is proven incomplete... in that situation, you have non-swoopers intentionally putting swoopers (and themselves) at higher risk. I think this is very sad, and it irritates the crap out of me. now I'll get off my soapbox for awhile."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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billvon 2,396 #11 July 9, 2007 >Do you think the potential for a longer walk is a factor in some jumpers' >resistance to the proposed BSR? Perhaps - although in my "ideal" world the swoop area would be closest to the spectator area, which is usually near the packing area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 July 9, 2007 Quote Quote Overall, I think that RW guys and gals need the exercise more than swoopers... Oh wait...there's a grain of truth in that... Freefall discipline has nothing to do with whether one swoops or not. It's an idiotic tease. The shortest walk? That will align with whether the DZO likes to do HPLs or not (DZO makes the rules per the BSR - or what the BSR evolves to if it happens) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 July 9, 2007 As I've been shaking off the rust from my shoulder injury and visiting places again, it seems like quite a few have taken it on themselves to come up with solutions and KISS (keep it simple stupid) seems to be doing a good job. I went to San Diego for the first time and they 'separate' the two landing areas by a string of flags, with the swoopers landing closer and the rest a mere 10 yards further out. Everyone does left hand 90s to come in, but the swoopers finish with a right hand 270. They have an advantage of a typical coastal breeze, but seemed to work and they fly an otter. Supports the notion that talking about this subject is productive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #14 July 9, 2007 If a swooper swoops way out near the woods where nobody can hear or see it, does it make sound?I thought the whole idea of the swoop was to scare the spectators and to walk the least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #15 July 9, 2007 >Everyone does left hand 90s to come in, but the swoopers finish with a right hand 270. Yep, seems to work well. One caveat is that the pattern is flown over the runway; that's not safe to do at many DZ's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 July 10, 2007 Quote'separate' the two landing areas by a string of flags, with the swoopers landing closer and the rest a mere 10 yards further out. Everyone does left hand 90s to come in, but the swoopers finish with a right hand 270. They have an advantage of a typical coastal breeze, but seemed to work and they fly an otter. That sounds backwards, since the swoopers are coming in from above and overtaking, they should continue deeper into the base leg (past those turning 90) and then do the 270 - with the 90's turning short. If the 270's turn short, then they'd descend into those doing 90's. And this also assumes everyone is landing into the wind, or at least in the same direction. But at least the whole load follows the same pattern lanes. (unless by 'closer', you just mean a shorter walk - that should be determined by whichever way the wind is coming from) other than that, it's pretty clever if everyone is clear about it 10 yards isn't much of a safety margin in case anyone has to bail out of their lanes for any reason. edit: Oops, my artistry shows a right hand pattern and the poster noted left hand. but the idea is the same. If the building is at the top of the page, then the 90's land "closer", if at the bottom of the page, then the 270's land "closer". This example reads as the wind is from the left and everyone agrees to the right turn pattern. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 July 10, 2007 We have a similar landing pattern at Pitt Meadows. The only difference is that swoopers usually turn on to base leg (cross wind) much sooner, so that keeps them upwind of the pea gravel bowl (that everyone else aims for). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #18 July 10, 2007 A major advantage of landing close to the hangar is that - some days - really NASTY rotors roll off the hangar, which makes for really scary landings, which really scare spectators! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #19 July 10, 2007 QuoteA major advantage of landing close to the hangar is that - some days - really NASTY rotors roll off the hangar, which makes for really scary landings, which really scare spectators! That brings up a good point. Is it really such a good idea to have the swoop area close to the spectators? I believe one DZ has already had a spectator death from a botched swoop and it's undeniable that swoops gone bad is a major cause of fatalities in our sport. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 July 10, 2007 Quoteedit: Oops, my artistry shows a right hand pattern and the poster noted left hand. but the idea is the same. If the building is at the top of the page, then the 90's land "closer", if at the bottom of the page, then the 270's land "closer". This example reads as the wind is from the left and everyone agrees to the right turn pattern. other than the left right reverse, your diagram shows it exactly. Not sure I understand the objections you opened the post with. The 270s do go deeper in the base leg. The spectators are safe in this location - there is a fence (actually a covered open air structure where the packing is done on the other side of the swooping lane. Only one gap to get through. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #21 July 10, 2007 QuoteNot sure I understand the objections you opened the post with. Because your initial post on the subject didn't say who turned onto final first...now that you've cleared that up, it makes sense (at least to me)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #22 July 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteNot sure I understand the objections you opened the post with. Because your initial post on the subject didn't say who turned onto final first...now that you've cleared that up, it makes sense (at least to me) yup - "and the rest a mere 10 yards further out" implies the the 'rest' went deeper into the base leg. Which is the wrong inference. But people have done worse things before just to save 10 extra walking yards. As the reader, I had no idea where KD's building was located. Now that it's clear, I think it's a good idea if enforceable. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #23 July 11, 2007 QuoteDo you think the potential for a longer walk is a factor in some jumpers' resistance to the proposed BSR? If you asked people to their face, they'd probably say no (and probably think they're telling the truth), but I've been around the sport long enough to know that the answer is an emphatic YES!! The other problem is people just don't give a shit. My DZ has implemented separate landing areas. Both areas are far from the hanger and require a truck to pick them up. The truck usually sits near the border of the two areas, and therefore in theory noone has a longer walk. But guess what?... People STILL land wherever they feel like. The few swoopers (I am one) usually land in the appropriate area... not always, but usually. The non-swoopers (easily 90%+ of the jumpers) so far have not been good at all about staying in their area (which, I might add, is about 3 times as large). I don't mind a longer walk myself... it's a good saftey precaution, and swoopers who violate landing patterns or separate landing areas are out of line. But non-swoopers frequently aren't helping, and that behavior is starting to erode their current moral high ground."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #24 July 12, 2007 >But non-swoopers frequently aren't helping, and that behavior is >starting to erode their current moral high ground. ?? Neither "side" has any "moral high ground." Both swoopers and non-swoopers have been killed by incompatible-pattern collisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #25 July 12, 2007 Quote?? Neither "side" has any "moral high ground." Both swoopers and non-swoopers have been killed by incompatible-pattern collisions. Maybe I should say "percieved moral high ground". There's definately a prevailing view that the swoopers are intentionally engaging in behavior that raises the risk to non-swoopers (sadly often true), and thus the swoopers need to modify their behavior (again, true). All I'm saying is that when modifications are put in place for the saftey of everyone and NOONE follows them, including non-swoopers, that perception is proven incomplete... in that situation, you have non-swoopers intentionally putting swoopers (and themselves) at higher risk. I think this is very sad, and it irritates the crap out of me. now I'll get off my soapbox for awhile."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
