Cayce 0 #1 October 31, 2004 Okay, I'm still shaking here a little but the beer is starting to work... I wanted to get this on the net while it's fresh in my mind so I can learn from the experience. I did my AFF2 today in Skydive San Diego. Really nice people, awesome Jump Masters, all is good on the orientation and the practice. Checks in the plane on the way up, all good, dry run the jump, no problem. Myself and two Jump Masters exit, I go through my checks and turns and tacking without too much of a hiccup. 6000 I lock on and pull at 5500. Problem! The canopy goes up, starts to open but it's too small, not a full opening. I immediately go into a left hand spin which kicks me out to maybe 45 degrees and I’m spiraling down and pulling some Gs. I'm looking up trying to see if I have twisted risers or something. I can't tell if I have a twist because I'm being spun around and it's hard to focus on the canopy and risers. I grab the risers and pull them apart and kick, nothing happens. I try pulling hard on one riser and then the other one, still in a serious spin. I remember that they said not to pull the control toggles if you have a twist because it's a bad thing. I can't really remember ever hearing why it's a bad thing but I don't pull the control toggles. Anyway, I can’t discern weather I have a twist or not all I know is I can’t land this thing and I’m nearing my decision altitude. At 3000 I go into emergency procedures and cut away. I go into freefall for a little while and I’m going to the reserve handle. I guess the RSL pulled before my handle did because all the sudden I’m under a canopy that is stable, has good shape, and turns when I want it to. I stand the landing and all is good… Now, in the debrief the Jump Masters both said I did the right thing. I’m alive, I cut before I got too low, all is good. One said it sounded like a line over because the canopy wasn’t fully inflated. I don’t know, I had a hard time focusing on the canopy when I was in the spin. My nagging question is, did I mess up by not releasing the control toggles? I guess you could say I tried everything else so why not pull the toggles and see if it fixed itself. The other side of me says that it could have cost me 6-10 seconds to find out if it was going to fix it and that might have put me past a safe reserve deployment altitude. I don’t know, I mean really, it’s my second jump… Anyway, I don’t want to let this go by without leaning from the experience. So please give me some feedback. And what’s the norm here, how many people do I owe beer? Thanks… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #2 October 31, 2004 QuoteMy nagging question is, did I mess up by not releasing the control toggles? I guess you could say I tried everything else so why not pull the toggles and see if it fixed itself. The other side of me says that it could have cost me 6-10 seconds to find out if it was going to fix it and that might have put me past a safe reserve deployment altitude. I don’t know, I mean really, it’s my second jump… There will always be people who second guess you. In my opinion, and having a cut at level 3 myself, you did exactly enough. Please do not second guess yourself any more...you've already answered your own thought. If it were going to take that long (and it really might have), you'd've made it into hard deck range or lower... Fixating on fixing something can kill you. It's killed very experienced people in the past...very experienced ones. You did very very well. The fear may take over later, but my suggestion is to get back out tomorrow, and get a jump under your belt. It will be the hardest thing you've done - I know this - but it will also be the best thing you could do. Congratulations, and yes, you owe beer to your JMs. And for whomever rigged the container, you also owe a bottle of liquor, his choice. Ain't it grand to be here to buy the liquor? Again, you did really really well. If you need to chat, pm me. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #3 October 31, 2004 Good job. In my extremely limited experience, you did the right thing. If you can't figure out what's wrong and you're getting spinned around, don't spend the precious little time you have left trying to wonder what could be done. I chopped my canopy once, and to this day I still don't know what was wrong with it. But it sure was trying to race me to the ground. Although I would assume you are jumping a lightly loaded canopy, some malfunctiuns can get worse by unstowing the toggles. At least you lived to talk about it and buy beer Listen to what your instructors say, and live & learn. See you in Perris... Edited to add: don't be offended if this thread gets moved to the safety and training forum "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuFantasma 0 #4 October 31, 2004 Congratulations, well managed and executed... that's a lot of detail from a student. From my perspective, the answer is: you are writing your own incident report. Cheers GeorgeY yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo". - Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gforce 0 #5 October 31, 2004 "how many people do I owe beer?" I'm thinking that the person that packed your main, which being an AFF2 student you probably didn't pack, should kick in a little bit of beer. Shouldn't a rigger go over the main to help determine the cause? Also, your JM's probably saw the spin. They'll tell you that you did the right thing. Don't second guess. Much better safe than sorry. Get up there again soon. Now you KNOW that you can handle a malfunction successfully. That means a lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wee 0 #6 October 31, 2004 Quote"how many people do I owe beer?" I'm thinking that the person that packed your main, which being an AFF2 student you probably didn't pack, should kick in a little bit of beer. Exactly what I was thinking! QuoteNow you KNOW that you can handle a malfunction successfully. That means a lot. I'm still a student and that's the last thing I would expect to happen so it would take a lot to get me back up. That's a good way of looking at it though - so true! We all have to learn some way... so glad you were able to fix it fast Cayce!! If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #7 October 31, 2004 Definitely a good job... The only thing that you want to be concerned about is the 2500 feet of altitude you lost while figuring out if you should chop the canopy. I'm sure that this will be heavily debated, but I was taught that if it hasn't opened correctly and is not fly-able, to try and remedy the situation, then go immediatley to the emergency procedures. I imagine this process taking much less than 2500 feet to complete. But, like i said, all in all a great job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #8 October 31, 2004 First off good job in saving your life - you did what was required and no one should second guess you. From your post you don't clearly say that you have line twist- if you did have line twist you don't unstow the toggles because only one might unstow - you would then have a spinning line twist malfunction. From your post you said that the canopy was spinning - at your level you did the right thing - you tired to counter the turn with the risers it didn't work so you cut away--it is possible that you had a toggle come unstowed on opening but with out knowing the canopy type that usually results in a fast turn not a g-force pulling spin. You did what you should have - great job now get back out there and graduate. The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #9 October 31, 2004 Quote"how many people do I owe beer?" I'm thinking that the person that packed your main, which being an AFF2 student you probably didn't pack, should kick in a little bit of beer. WRONG WRONG WRONG You did a good job. Learn from it. Buy your beer. Do not try to find blame. YOU made the decisicion to jump from a plane. Shit can happen and shit WILL happen. Again, you did a good job, learn from it, buy your beer................................... Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 October 31, 2004 My nagging question is, did I mess up by not releasing the control toggles? I guess you could say I tried everything else so why not pull the toggles and see if it fixed itself. The other side of me says that it could have cost me 6-10 seconds to find out if it was going to fix it and that might have put me past a safe reserve deployment altitude. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First of all, congrats on saving your own life. One problem with line twists is that they can get so tight that they jam steering lines, so playing with steering toggles would have only been a waste of time with a planet rapidly approaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeTJumps 4 #11 October 31, 2004 You did the right thing! Listen to your instructors, not second guessers. Welcome to the world.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cayce 0 #12 October 31, 2004 I feel better now after sleeping and going over the jump in my head a few hundred times. I really appreciate the feedback from everyone, this is a great community and it helps to get a sounding board to hear from others who have more experience. Freeflydrew I appreciate what you're saying. I probably did stay with a malfunctioning canopy for too long. I estimate it was about 15 seconds of tugging and kicking. Then maybe 2 seconds where I took a deep breath and realized I had to cut. It's kind of tough to know what's normal at this stage. The instruction said that if your not under a functioning canopy in 6-8 seconds then you should cut. This was a partially functioning canopy and kept expecting to pull the magic riser and it would right it self. I did assume that a spiral was a slower descent than freefall so I had a few extra seconds. I checked my alti once at maybe 8 seconds and was still in the high 3000s so I tugged some more. Anyway, probably should have cut sooner, but I’m not complaining at the moment. I’m not into the blame thing, I’m sure the riggers did their due diligence. There’s too many other variables to point fingers. I did drop the rig and reserve in the master riggers space so he could go over it, I still had the two handles, I guess that’s something. The main canopy landed near the runway on a hill and I think they sent someone out on a quad to find it. I’m sure it will go back to the master rigger for a once over. At this point, all I know is I did what I had to and it worked. I learned a hell of a lot in a very short time. And I’ll be stopping by the store to pick up a cooler full of beer on the way to the DZ today to take my do my third level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #13 October 31, 2004 Quoteon the way to the DZ today to take my do my third level. Good on ya, Cayce!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JRock 0 #14 October 31, 2004 Never hesitate my friend... you did the right thing and you are able write about it. Way to keep your head about you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fenceline 0 #15 November 1, 2004 First off good job!!! What I take from your post primarily are two key points..... 1) Spinning Mal 2) Unable to determine the the cause Your reaction to cut away was 100% correct. When in doubt, whip it out. When it comes right down to it, you still fixed the problem, regardless of what it was. Good awareness to attempt to look up and identify in more detail what was happening, but you made the right move and save your own skin. Check the incident reports and you will find people that have tried to fix a situation and never did, with negative results. Again, way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbrasher 0 #16 November 1, 2004 Congratulations you wait is over. Many people wait years wondering whether they'll handle a malfunction properly. Ypu already have. Now, think about this. What if you had a slow speed malfunction, i.e. something like 3-4 line broken but the canopy seems to fly OK. What should you do? (These are much more difficult than a high speed malfunction). Will the canopy continue to fly OK with this damage or will it degrade the closer you get to the ground? You and spend a lot of time second guessing situations like this. That's the problem, time. You only have a finite amount of time available and you should use it wisely. Do your checks and if you're still not DEFINITELY sure then it's a malfunction. Indecision is over. Do your emergency procedures. Red, White and Blue Skies, John T. Brasher D-5166 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #17 November 1, 2004 QuoteThis was a partially functioning canopy In my (personnal) book, unless it's my reserve, a "partially functioning" canopy is not a landable canopy and will get chopped away. Unless I know I can fix it prior to reaching my hard deck (ie line twists). Once again, good job. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cayce 0 #18 November 1, 2004 Well, I couldn't get down to the DZ in time as they stopped early today. I did get over to Perris so I could watch some landings and get reminded that people have fun doing this. So that was a good thing! Below is a picture of my Mal. Jim, who was just watching the jumps on the ground pulled his camera when he saw me spinning and snapped a shot. What do you guys make of this. To me it looks like a line over that is folding over the left third of the shoot. That would be consistent with my looking up and thinking the shoot is too small. Also, it looks like there is some line or something trailing me in the spin. Any thoughts on that one? You can see it has me at a pretty good angle so I must have been going around fast. Damn scary to see the picture! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #19 November 1, 2004 QuoteDefinitely a good job... The only thing that you want to be concerned about is the 2500 feet of altitude you lost while figuring out if you should chop the canopy i shouldnt be talking at my jump numbers, BUT....did the canopy snivel on opening? if you threw out at 5500 and it did, you didnt lose 2500' messing with the mal before you chopped. i have had snivellers that took about 1000' to open... and excellent job BTW. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drmagoo 0 #20 November 1, 2004 In a situation such as this, you have a few seconds to decide what to do. The people on the ground then have all the time they want to tear thru your decision. You are alive and no broken bones - So i say that you did the right thing.. Its always better to be safe then sorry =) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #21 November 1, 2004 Congratulations on handling it. Damn fine job. jIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #22 November 1, 2004 Nice job Cayce! As was pointed out in an earlier reply, you now know you can handle yourself when something goes wrong. You didn't freeze, you followed your training, you got rid of the mess, and replaced it with a landable canopy. Again, great job! Now you also understand, that as reliable as the systems are today, malfunctions do happen. So, pay close attention to your instructors, and take your emergency procedures seriously. Never get too comfortable with jumping out of an airplane, in other words, keep a certain awe of what we do... My son and I were at San Diego on Friday. He recently got his "A", and we were going up to do a two way RW jump. While we were waiting for the call, I asked him about his response in the event of a Pilot Chute in Tow, and gave him some things to consider... you guessed it! He had a pilot chute in tow that very jump (his 32nd). Like you, he did very well also. He spent a little time trying to clear it (looking over his shoulder / jostling the container), but quickly decided that it was time to get a canopy over his head. He was in the saddle with plenty of time to see where the main was landing, and still make it to the landing area. Like you, we were over the DZ when this occurred (first out), so he did not have to consider picking a landing site. You might want to pay attention to the possible landing sites along the lake when you drive by next time, just in case you ever need to chop a little further down the jump run. Skydive San Diego is a beautiful place to jump, and now that it's greening up, the scenery is even better. Look forward to joining you in the air. Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bigwallmaster 0 #23 November 2, 2004 I think you mean that he time to watch his "free bag?" Not a main canopy. . . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #24 November 2, 2004 First chop AND you kept the handles... job well done I would say. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #25 November 2, 2004 JP No, we were able to watch the main... I just left out details in the interest of brevity. After cutting away, the main deployed partially. Main & freebag / pilot chute were in one big heap. He kept the handles also. Didn't have to hike too far either, although I did get one of the local rattlesnakes rather perturbed. Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
