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billvon

BSR proposal for canopy patterns

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The major issue I see with traffic doing a swoop landing is unpredictable folks below me. If they are fast, I can wait them out and stage my landing, no matter what bizarre thing they do. But if there is a floaty guy down there, the swoop pattern stacks up and eventually I (and everyone above me) has to go.

I think this is a fundamental difference between swoop landings and traditional landings. The issue really is the speed of descent, more than the particular pattern for swoop safety.

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The major issue I see with traffic doing a swoop landing is unpredictable folks below me. If they are fast, I can wait them out and stage my landing, no matter what bizarre thing they do. But if there is a floaty guy down there, the swoop pattern stacks up and eventually I (and everyone above me) has to go.

I think this is a fundamental difference between swoop landings and traditional landings. The issue really is the speed of descent, more than the particular pattern for swoop safety.



Why, in that instance, couldn't you simply abort your swoop? Or is that what you mean by "has to go"....
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Sure, you abort. Then you have to land in unpredictable traffic, which is a hazard.

If the BOD approves a new BSR, it should make landing safer for both non-swoopers and swoopers.

The most effective thing we can do to reduce conflicts with swoopers is to have a designated high-speed landing area that is not used by slow canopies (whatever pattern they are following).

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It's too bad that SDAZ did not leave one of the main landing areas open for nonstandard patterns (although swooping has certainly not been banned.) A BSR might have given them something less disagreeable to enforce.

So the choice you will be presented with will be - a BSR that calls out how to separate traffic? Or more Skydive Arizonas and Crosskeys?



That is exactly the same argument you were making about WL BSR couple years ago. Back then you were telling us that if we won’t go with WL BSR for everyone then every drop zone will implement wing loading restriction themselves. I guess you tried to position WL BSR like a good thing.:S
Now couple years later I know about only one DZ that has some sort of WL restrictions and they had it before your WL BSR was even proposed. So it does not look that many DZ went this way and implemented WL restrictions. Why do you think it will happen this time?

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Sure, you abort. Then you have to land in unpredictable traffic, which is a hazard.

If the BOD approves a new BSR, it should make landing safer for both non-swoopers and swoopers.

The most effective thing we can do to reduce conflicts with swoopers is to have a designated high-speed landing area that is not used by slow canopies (whatever pattern they are following).



Agreed - landing in unpredictable traffic is more dangerous. A thought, here, if you can take yourself back in time - what do you think your swoop is, to the person in the 'standard pattern'?

I agree with the idea of separating standard and non-standard patterns by some method, whether it be time or distance.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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The major issue I see with traffic doing a swoop landing is unpredictable folks below me. If they are fast, I can wait them out and stage my landing, no matter what bizarre thing they do. But if there is a floaty guy down there, the swoop pattern stacks up and eventually I (and everyone above me) has to go.



Evan - some of this comes from the exit order, which may have me exiting first with a canopy in the 1.1-1.2 range. (and obviously other RWs with lighter loads), but have the last FF solo or duo at the back. Ideally I'm in full flight at 2500, so depending on how long jump run is and where you've opened, you'll either catch up to me before your 270/360 or not. Definitely an issue for the smaller LZ. But is there a way to solve this problem without the terminal speed collisions?

At Byron the swoop area is pretty obvious, but less so at Skydance, though with my shoulder break I've only been out there one day in 2006/7.

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At Byron the swoop area is pretty obvious, but less so at Skydance, though with my shoulder break I've only been out there one day in 2006/7.



The swoop area at Skydance is actually very obvious...its west of the peas- basically the gravel "runway." "Not sure when the last time you came out was, but just ask anyone next time if you are still unsure.

That brings up a good point too. As jumpers its our responsibility to familiarize our self with the local rules at dz that we visit. Most dz try to give briefings to new jumpers, but don't rely on them to offer it (that was not directed at anyone in particular)

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The swoop area at Skydance is actually very obvious...its west of the peas- basically the gravel "runway."



I figured that was the landing zone, but was less sure about the airspace above.

And you're right - it's useful for one's own safety, and important for everyone else's, to get information at a new place, or when in doubt.

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It's too bad that SDAZ did not leave one of the main landing areas open for nonstandard patterns (although swooping has certainly not been banned.) A BSR might have given them something less disagreeable to enforce.

So the choice you will be presented with will be - a BSR that calls out how to separate traffic? Or more Skydive Arizonas and Crosskeys?



That is exactly the same argument you were making about WL BSR couple years ago. Back then you were telling us that if we won’t go with WL BSR for everyone then every drop zone will implement wing loading restriction themselves. I guess you tried to position WL BSR like a good thing.:S
Now couple years later I know about only one DZ that has some sort of WL restrictions and they had it before your WL BSR was even proposed. So it does not look that many DZ went this way and implemented WL restrictions. Why do you think it will happen this time?


Rules to prevent you from killing someone else can be far more easily justified than rules to prevent you killing yourself. IMO.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I posted in haste late last night and what I really meant to say was:

Thanks for making this thread become a discussion on canopy landing area
issues a good one.
We have considered updating the Options to reflect "being politically
correct", trying not to single out “swoopers”, “accuracy”, “erratic
flyers”, etc. and adding a Option 4.

But that will be the job of USPA, Safety & Training Committee and the Board.

With input from all skydivers willing to voice their opinion. So please
contact your Director.

Our goal continues to be: adding a BSR concerning canopy safety in the
landing area.


Bluest Skies & Peace,

dob

edited by request

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Hey, D O'B! :-) :-)

Thank you guys for starting this discussion.

There has been a lot of background grumbling
for a long time with respect to mixing such
dissimilar flying styles, but nothing has come
of it until recently.

With this plus the changes at Eloy it feels like
the discussion has officially begun.


I just found out a couple weeks ago that I'm
going back to China in a couple weeks, so I
haven't been around here.

On the off chance that you guys get this worked
out before I come back, please leave me a note
around here somewhere so I'll know how to act
when I get back in the air.

Skr

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Dan,

What's up.

How do you see most dropzones accommodating a "non-standard landing area?"

Does the "non-standard landing area" merge into the student area, or take over the swooping area? I say "take over" because it becomes unsafe to swoop when we push slow, erratic canopies into an area.

If a major problem is collisions between swoopers and standard pattern folks, let's advocate giving swoopers a safe place to land.

I am suggesting that any BSR define a High Performance Landing area as a protected space. Specifically that anyone not inducing speed to land fast under a highly-loaded canopy be barred from landing in this area, or overflying it below 1000 feet. This includes slow canopies doing lazy spirals and guys shooting accuracy.

Given the choice between slow, erratic folks in either a standard (up jumper) landing area, or a swoop landing area, why on earth would you put them with the swoopers?

Evan

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Yo, just trying to be "politically correct" and trying to cover all aspects of what a non-standard landing might be. You and our original proposal are more correct in defining a "high performance landing area". Similar to an aircraft "aerobatic box" being declared and active. Trying to encompass all non-standard landings is a whole other can of worms. What we want is a defined "standard landing pattern". How and when that occurs is in our outlined Options 1-3.
thanks for keeping the discussion moving.

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I agree that separating standard landing people from nonstandard landing people is an important first step.

I also agree that people screwing around under Mantas have no business mixing it up with people executing HPLs.

In the motorcycle world you have people who, if I ride up on my Harley (shovelhead), will go into a discourse on how their crotch rockets set them apart, and that people of my generation have no idea whatsoever. Of course, when I pull up on my Suzuki (GSXR 1100) they skip the diatribe.

Similarly, I get one lecture from people when I'm jumping a Raven IV, but don't hear about it as much when I'm jumping an EXTreme 99 FX.

In any event, my contention is that, while hot landings under tiny canopies are exhilerating, swooping is by nature a not a primary consideration. By that I mean that the #1 goal to have everyone land uninjured, having a great time is a close second, and doing the aforementioned in a "hey, y'all, watch this!" fashion comes in third at best.

To have separate areas strictly devoted to standard patterns, HPLs and erratic low performance stuff involves a lot of work to organize, and I don't blame a DZO who doesn't bother to do so. Running a successful DZ tends to leave one with a pretty full dance card to begin with.

Regardless of what approach is taken, it is imperative that the jumpers involved are all on the same page before boarding the aircraft. If, while waiting to board, someone says to the group "I'm going to be swooping the pond, setting up for a right 270 over there and landing to the West - is everyone okay with that?," you don't have people surprised to find it out under canopy. I've seen it work at various DZs for years.

I am not sure if I am crazy about seeking safety through regulation, since the mandated solution may be less effective than another approach that is summarily forbidden. Again, I prefer getting everyone on the same page before takeoff to counting on someone not killing me because doing so would be against the rules.

I do applaud DZs that forbid the mix and match of landing styles, giving priority to those doing a standard approach.

Whatever we do, making a safe standard approoach a viable option for any jumper that chooses it has to come first, and others should be free to push the limits elsewhere.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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With a recent rise in canopy collision many people have been taking steps to help solve this fatal problem. Steps ranging from separate landing area’s to banning a certain landing pattern. However, like all emergency situations or accidents there are signs of trouble before anything ever happens. So here I would like to share some things that might help prevent future accidents and situations starting from the beginning and an attempt to look at the whole picture of how we can prevent future issues not just the moment when we land.

DZ Responsibilities
- Acceptable sized landing area and locations [Student landing area, Main landing area, High Performance Landing area (HPL).]
- Communication on DZ landing rules to all jumpers continuously and frequently.
- Basic understanding of what swooping is to all new jumpers along with the importance of smooth, predictable landing patterns

Pre- boarding of aircraft
- Know who’s on your load, what are they flying, where are they landing
- Communicate landing direction, especially in light and variable winds
- Know who’s opening up behind you, if there’s someone flying a small parachute help get them into the pattern by possibly sitting in breaks so they can pass you.

Exiting
- Give longer separation between groups, this will “open up” the air

Opening altitudes
- Students, A, and B, deploy by 3500’
- C and D deploy by 3000’
- Remember altitude is your friend, the more altitude we have means the more space we have to work with so open higher
- Plan your dive, dive your plan…open when you say you’re going to open

Canopy flight
- Clear your airspace and look to see where you will fit into the pattern, you might have to go into brakes to fit into the pattern.
- Do NOT spiral over the LZ to try and be the first to land if it’s putting others in jeopardy. Spiraling over the DZ below 1000’ under a large canopy is no different then starting a swoop at 800’

Landings
- Land where you say you were going to land
- If traffic is heavy do NOT swoop
- If swooping, do it in the HPL area
- If landing straight in, do it in the main landing area
- Be aware of the landing direction as to not land perpendicular to other jumpers. Remember straight in pilots can just as easily cut-off and kill other straight-in pilots just as swoopers can.
- No S-turns, they are unpredictable and take up much of the airspace.


Some things you might not have known about the aspects of swooping or speed induced flight approaches

A typical, but not all, swooper will initiate a 270 degree turn any where from 600’ to 850’ with some of the bigger turns (450-630) starting as high as 1400’ above the ground. This means that if you’re over the HPL at these altitudes there could be swoopers coming down as well, and it is highly advise NOT to be over the HPL below 1500’

A typical, but not all, swoopers wingloading can range from 1.8 – 2.4. This means that in full flight a swooper can have the same decent rate as someone under a canopy wingloading of 1.0 – 1.3 doing spirals. This means that the person doing the spirals on a lower wingloading is now condensing the airspace and creating a hazard for themselves and everyone else around and behind them.

Remember, we need to look at the whole picture and not just one aspect of the canopy flight. We also need to realize that knowledge is power and the more informed about skydiving, swooping, and surviving, the better off everyone will be. There is NO quick fix for this but if we work together on this constructively then we can at least get through it.

Please add or comment on anything you see here, just make sure it’s constructive.

Stu
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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Hi everyone,

As Cliff Heller's widow, I'd like to add my 2 cents...

The issue of separating the HPL area from the SPL has already been addressed as jumpers for the most part already distinguish and utilize these areas. There should be no harm in making it an official BSR to be implemented. Like seatbelts, it is common sense. But everybody has different levels of common sense which is why rules are set by society.

Yes, I am a newbie and there are many nuances to this issue that I do not understand. But Cliff was not a newbie, and I know he was extremely dedicated to safety. I endured many lectures on safety, in particular being aware of other jumpers under canopy, knowing where they are what they are doing at all times, but most of all remembering to use my own knowledge and judgement to land myself safely. Isn't the issue here pilot error under canopy? Checking blind spots, altitude awareness and appropriate skill level? I'm not saying it shouldnt necessarily be implemented, but I'm not sure this BSR proposal is going to end up decreasing the death toll...

Be safe,
Jen Osborne
"Live as if you'll die tomorrow, learn as if you'll live forever." -Gandhi

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I think several valid questions need to be answered before approaching USPA with those new BSRs:

1.That would be interesting to see real data on how many DZ have separate landing areas for conventional and swoop landings?

2. Second question that should be answered is how many DZ willing to introduce those landing areas?

Finally we need to look at results: lets say 10 percent of drop zones have separated landing areas and 90 percent willing to introduce them – then we clearly on the right track. On the other hand if only 30 percent drop zones are willing to introduce those separate landing areas then our BSRs will do more harm then good.

Other possible scenario is that lets say 90 percent drop zones already have separate landing areas then clearly we don’t need no new BSR we just need to enforce proper usage of what we already have.

I think we need accurate data not speculation to justify introduction of those BSRs.

Same approach should be taken on time separation of traffic.
1.How many DZ provide low passes?
2.How many DZ will do multiple passes at altitude?

I think that is not that many drop zones in US so it should be easy to collect this data.

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I have a couple of comments.

First, I wouldn't say that swoopers aren't going to be represented. Everyone is welcome to attend the USPA BOD meeting. I will do my best to schedule the presentation time for Safety and Training Committee's first meeting Saturday. This should allow more attendance than Friday, but enought time left for us to consider the presentation. We have a busy meeting, so the presentation needs prepared.

There is no amount of regulation that USPA can institute without it being enforced on a local level. The enforcement must be done by the DZO's, DZM's, S&TA's, Instructors, jumpers, and you.

Todd


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

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Thanks Todd.
Will there be a time limit on the BSR proposal presentation to the S&T Committee?
If other jumpers show to speak up, pro or con, will a time limit be set on each person or group??

***There is no amount of regulation that USPA can institute without it being enforced on a local level. The enforcement must be done by the DZO's, DZM's, S&TA's, Instructors, jumpers, and you.


Completely in agreement on the "no amount of regulation " comment. WE ALL have to become VERY PROACTIVE on landing area issues!!!

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I would say to have your presentation as effecient as possible to allow more time for member comments. We do have plenty to accomplish on the agenda, so we may have to interupt and continue at a late night session. As long as there are valuable comments and input, I would like to hear them. If it becomes a volley of arguements, we will have to move on.

How much time would you like to ask for.

Todd


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

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Thank you todd for having us on the agenda on saturday. We would like 30 minutes for our group just in case...we don't to run out of time & it would be easier to give time back for others to speak vs not having enough.

I hope many skydivers will also be present at the meeting to share opinions & concerns. The more skydivers involved the better to help make our sport safer.

Just to let everyone know too- we will be on the group membership committee agenda too, hopefully for saturday as well. We are also planning on talking to the full BOD- again I am unsure on the day/time at this point.

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hey all, just a mini update...but I am still waiting for official dates/times from folks

we will be presenting at the first meeting on saturday (7/14) on the safety & training agenda but I don't the exact time of that meeting yet/what time the first meeting starts at.

We are still hoping for either a saturday or sunday presentation time slot on the group membership agenda vs a friday slot.

I hope to see & meet many of you at the USPA meeting!

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Has everybody that has read these threads or participated in these threads (2 very distinct crowds judging by the views & replies numbers) (and I mean landing BSR and swooping is not a crime threads) contacted their respective S&TA, DZO, Regional Director or National Director and voiced their opinion??? All the talk here on DZ.com is great and it gives those that like to shout or talk or discuss a venue to do so. But where the hook-turn hits the road is with the rules-masters. Get involved, get it in the open, make it safer by being proactive.

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