Freeflying makes you a better belly flyer?

[RB_Hammer 0]

I have 111 jumps, all of which have been belly flying. I have no intention or desire to start freeflying, but I had some jumpers tell me that doing freeflying actually makes you a better belly flyer.
Since these guys have more jumps and experience than me, I tried to get them to expand on that and tell me why this is true. The only answer I got was that freeflying gives you a better understanding of how your body will fly.
I have a hard time finding people that want to fly belly, and I am almost to the point of trying to start freeflying just to have more people to jump with, but I really want to get my belly fly skills developed.

What is everyone's opinions on this?

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[chaoskitty 0]

No, I dont think that freeflying makes you a better belly flyer. I think that skydiving makes you a better skydiver.

[DougH 270]

any body flight, makes you a better body flier in my opinion.

I find it hard to believe that there are no belly fliers at all at your dz who will take you up on a four way.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[wildcard451 0]

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No, I dont think that freeflying makes you a better belly flyer. I think that skydiving makes you a better skydiver.

QFT.

Freeflying may give you a better understanding of how to fly if you flip the formation over on exit and want to start doing inverted 4-way , which by the way, is very fun.

Will sit flying help you turn 4way points faster or develop your big way skills? I doubt it.

Do I believe that a "freeflyer" should be able to do belly flying? Yup. You'll hear a lot of us jokingly refer to it as the pull position, but if you want to consider yourself a true freeflyer, then you should be able to fly in ALL axis and orientations. I'm still wishing I was that good, but I'm trying. Otherwise, how can you complete this dive? 3point HD to 3 point sit to three point belly to three point tracking? Very cool dive. If you don't have belly skills....then well, sorry charlie.

Basically I took 500 words to say what kitty said in 1 line.

Rock on Kitty.

[chaoskitty 0]

Party on B*.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

hahahahahahahahaha

I should post video of the free flyers vs the belly flyers on the 20 way speed star competition this past weekend at the redemption boogie. There was one group that would build to a 5-6 way and someone would come along and take out the formation. This happened three times during the dive while the other group looked really good. In an effort not to embarrass the freeflyers I won't post which group had problems.

That said there are some really good freeflyers that are awesome on their bellies. Learning to feel the air differently on your body and learning to control this force is always good.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[Remster 24]

Being proficient in one dicipline will help you in the other. That being said, you dont get very good at RW by doing hundreds of FF jumps, and vice versa.

Remster

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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No, I dont think that freeflying makes you a better belly flyer. I think that skydiving makes you a better skydiver.

I agree 100% ... now if only we could convert some of the freefall specialists into becoming better canopy pilots.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[RB_Hammer 0]

Perhaps it is just that I am not that good yet and they don't want to waste the jump.
I jump at a pretty small DZ, and this time of year it is really hot so the only sport jumpers that come out are either those still I have been on a couple of 4 ways, several 2 ways, but mostly I jump solo. I was on a 2 way drill jump with a very experienced instructor and TM that I simply loved. Basically he just fell straight down and my job was to fly with him, about 1.5 feet between our faces maintaining eye contact and simply alternate touching hands, right to right and left to left with about 20 degrees of turn on each alternation. Has been the most fullfilling jump I have had so far, at least as related to jump objectives accomplished.

This will probably get me flamed, but I decided I want to get a coach rating so I can jump with students that do nothing but belly fly. I have no desire to make money as a coach but want to get students in the air with someone else as I know that this really helps you get better much faster. Other than the jump I described above, the other jumps that have been the most fun have been with those that have just passed the A test.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[DJL 232]

I think it's more like that jumpers who have become good freeflyers, just as a matter of getting to that point, being more naturally talented, and probably shooting a crapload of tandem vid have become better as overall skydivers. Compare that to an equally talented person who dedicated that same about of training to team 4-way and you tell me who the better belly flyer will be.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[northcave 0]

surely adding diversity to your skills simply would make you a better skydiver. If you continue to do the same as always then you won't be ready for the unexpected. So in my eyes then learning to freefly would make u an all-round better skydiver. This does not assume freeflyers are better skydiver though.

[RB_Hammer 0]

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No, I dont think that freeflying makes you a better belly flyer. I think that skydiving makes you a better skydiver.

Got the meaning of the first sentence. Not exactly sure of the second.
Actually, not sure what defines a 'better skydiver'. Care to elaborate?

I guess my idea of getting to be a 'better skydiver' means never being the guy that others are saying, 'Wow, check him out!' or 'Did you see what he just did?'
Perhaps in a few years, after several hundred jumps, I will be able to develop the skills that others will be able to comment on in a positive fashion. Until then, I just want to be a competent, safe boring skydiver.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[chaoskitty 0]

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This will probably get me flamed, but I decided I want to get a coach rating so I can jump with students that do nothing but belly fly. I have no desire to make money as a coach but want to get students in the air with someone else as I know that this really helps you get better much faster. Other than the jump I described above, the other jumps that have been the most fun have been with those that have just passed the A test.

Flamed? No way! Thats awesome! Go for your rating!
My game plan, which worked pretty well for me.. was to stay on my belly for my first 200 jumps. Then I started working on my sit, but I kept jumping on my belly as well. I kept thinking about the $4,000+ I had already spent on those belly skills, and didn't want to lose them. Now, I prefer to freefly since I have a lot of work to do in that discipline, but I still throw in a couple of belly jumps every weekend. I just want to be able to fly my slot in both disciplines.
Do what works for you. And like Canuck said.. don't forget canopy skills too. Maybe instead of doing a solo belly jump (bo---ringggg..am I right?) do a hop n pop, or pull high and practice canopy skills. Way more fun! :)

[chaoskitty 0]

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No, I dont think that freeflying makes you a better belly flyer. I think that skydiving makes you a better skydiver.

Got the meaning of the first sentence. Not exactly sure of the second.
Actually, not sure what defines a 'better skydiver'. Care to elaborate?

I guess my idea of getting to be a 'better skydiver' means never being the guy that others are saying, 'Wow, check him out!' or 'Did you see what he just did?'

Oh no thats not what I meant at all. A "good" skydiver is someone who gets invited on 4 way pick up teams, big ways, freefly jumps, etc. because they've proven themselves to be safe and proficient in both disciplines, as well as a safe and heads up canopy pilot.

[rehmwa 2]

Answer is definitely "YES". One discipline wonders won't know the answer to your question either.

It takes a while, but eventually you realize that there's no real difference in the freefall disciplines. It's just feeling the air and moving it around to fly how you want. It's a lot different than the initial teachings of "strike this body position and the following will happen (i.e., "tip your shoulder and you'll turn" is a lot different than "cup the air in your hand and forearm and push it left and your upper body will push right". Once you feel the air and know how to direct it, then FF and Belly complement each other and each makes you better at the other.

My upper body position is very similar in Belly, bootie and sit flying - there's a good reason, that mantis-like upper body is very effective in airflow control.

Go to the tunnel and try a lot of stuff with your eyes closed. Learn to actually feel what you are doing to the flow.

To be a competent 'recreational' freeflyer, IMO, is a bit harder than being a competent belly 'fun jumper'. It's one reason responsible freeflyers 'should' normally stick with 2ways. But to be talented/tops in either takes a lot of commitment and about the same amount of skill and talent.

edit: I like Chaoskitty and Remster's answers too

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Got the meaning of the first sentence. Not exactly sure of the second.

What ChaosKitty was saying makes perfect sense. Let me dumb it down for you. Jumping, period will make you a better skydiver.

Now it's unfortunate that the message I was trying to protray was lost within the first few replies. That's okay folks. I've got this really gnarly 22/23-way hybrid we should all try. This way the belly fliers and the freefliers can all play together (we'll get the hangers to drop off at 3k and the base can suck it down to 2k). Of course there is no need to plan what we should all do under canopy and who should be trying to land first setting a direction, who should chill in brakes and who should sequence themselves into the middle of the pattern. Cause the only thing that matters in this sport is that we have fun in freefall right.

Edited to add: I am glad Chaos did mention something about canopy control in her last response.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skymama 35]

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Perhaps it is just that I am not that good yet and they don't want to waste the jump.

Did they say that to you or are you just assuming they think that way?

A couple years back, one of my friends in DeLand was also one of our freefly coaches. He would give me pointers every time he jumped with me and would shoot video. I thanked him profusely every time, because I wasn't in the financial position to afford coached jumps. He said he didn't mind because if he helped me get better, there would be more people for him to fun-jump with. It's win-win for everyone if people will adopt this attitude. It's great that you want to get your coach rating so you can do that too.
Do you have another dz nearby that you can try-out?

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[RB_Hammer 0]

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And like Canuck said.. don't forget canopy skills too. Maybe instead of doing a solo belly jump (bo---ringggg..am I right?) do a hop n pop, or pull high and practice canopy skills. Way more fun! :)

Actually, I usually do a lot of tracking on my solo jumps. I like to pull at 5 to 4.5 and fly the canopy. Want to get to a canopy skills class as soon as I can. I do have to say that I enjoy the canopy ride as much as the free fall. There have been only 2 or 3 canopy rides where I did not practice piloting skills and those just because I had to concentrate on making it back to the LZ as I usually have to exit first or last on a load and either way, chances of a bad spot in either position is much higher. If I know I am getting out at a less than perfect spot, I will pull a little higher.
The only exception to that so far has been when there was an instructor or video flyer that specificaly asked my pull altitude. In those cases, I pull when I told them regardless of the spot.
Only 1 off landing so far, and that was an AFF jump and I did not spot.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[rehmwa 2]

CrW is also a great way to learn to fly canopies. Everyone should at least try it. And learn about high performance landings and pattern stacking, etc.

This sport has a ton to offer. It doesn't hurt to taste it all.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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If I know I am getting out at a less than perfect spot, I will pull a little higher.

I sure hope any people exiting after you know this, cause if they don't you are just asking for trouble if there is any sort of freefall drift by you ... or them.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

nope... belly flying makes you a better belly flyer.

[DougH 270]

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Perhaps it is just that I am not that good yet and they don't want to waste the jump.

Have you asked them to jump with you, and if you get turned down have you asked them why?

I was fortunate enough to have some very experinced people who were willing to jump with me since I started. At the same time I didn't want to waste their time and money so I invested a good deal of my own money in tunnel time.

I don't mind jumping with unexperinced jumpers, after all I am still unexperinced myself. I don't have any expectations when I do. I don't expect some one with 30 jumps to do everything right, I never did.

On the flip side I am less keen on jumping with people with 150+ jumps who have a propensity to fuck up dives but they are unwilling to invest in some coaching or tunnel time.

If becoming a belly flyer is one of your main goals then consider investing in the skill. Don't waste money on full altitude solos. You will get much better returns on your investment if you use it for quality coaching (you mentioned this yourself) and tunnel time.

Build a solid skill base and you will find that even the sky dicks will be more willing to jump with you.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[rehmwa 2]

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If I know I am getting out at a less than perfect spot, I will pull a little higher.

I sure hope any people exiting after you know this, cause if they don't you are just asking for trouble if there is any sort of freefall drift by you ... or them.

then it's their fault for taking a too short delay

never 'count' on vertical separation to determine exit delays

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DougH 270]

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then it's their fault for taking a too short delay

never 'count' on vertical separation to determine exit delays

Exactly, unless he is tracking up and down jump run, they should learn how to count and stop jumping the gun!!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[CanuckInUSA 0]

So you have control of the delays the people exiting after you take? What super-human skydiving powers do you have that I am not aware of? I totally understand what you are saying but for some reason I seem to have found myself back in SC even though I was trying to avoid that place today (where all we can agree on is disagreeing with each other). I guess my point of trying to communicate with the other groups before the airplane even takes off was lost again. I should quit my freaking job and get a new one where I am not near a computer.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over