Canopy Downsizing

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

Now that I'm moving along in my student progression my DZO has started helping me look for a rig to buy, so I can quit paying the $45/jump ticket for rental gear and altitude. So far I've been jumping Mantas (260 sq feet I believe), and I've felt pretty comfortable. I haven't done any stupid shit (yet) and I've had pretty good landings most of the time. The DZO, who is also the S&TA and the rigger has a rig he thinks would be really good for me with a Spectre 190 in it and I believe a PD Reserve 194ish square feet I believe? I know its a few square feet larger than the main..

Anyway, I weigh 190lbs without gear on. I've talked to him and others at the DZ about what my wingloading would be on a 190 main, just a little bit over 1:1. I know that it is generally not a good idea for students and novices to exceed a wingloading of 1:1, but this gear is what he is reccomending to me.

And I know none of you can make a decision about it, because you've never seen me fly. He has seen me fly, and he reccomends going straight from the 260 to the 190. So, is it ALWAYS a bad idea for novices to exceed 1:1 (even if only by a little bit)or does it really depend on the individual? I trust him, he is a good guy, and I don't think he wants me to buy this rig just so he gets some cash. What do you guys think about a student jumping a 190?

Further, what do you think about a student transitioning in one jump straight from a 260 to a 190? I assume I would probably be on radio or something for that jump.

Blues,

Ryan

[buzi 0]

To be honest I never jumped a manta. I started with a sabre 210 and 190. I think a 190 is a nice size to start with. I also wiegh 190lbs on a good day just FYI.

[Lastchance 0]

On jump 16 I went from a Manta 280 to a Trithalon 190 which put me at a 1:1 wing loading. I'm not saying it is good for you but it worked for me. I have no intention of downsizing at all anytime soon. I love things just the way they are. I'm also quite conservative under canopy. If your S&TA seems to think you are ok then I would probably trust their judgment. This is just my opinion. I know nothin. Been nowhere. Done nothing. Seriously though, good luck and have fun.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[punkd 0]

I transitioned down fairly quickly as well. Starting on a manta 280 for roughly 10 jumps.. then down to a 210 for roughly another 10. Bought my own gear which is a sabre 170 that i load just a bit over 1:1 (1.09:1)
I didn't have much of a problem with this, how ever I did notice quite a bit of difference in the way you flare between student canopy's and my sabre. Im sure that is something you will notice between a manta and a spectre(7cell) as well. Just remember PLF could be your friend for the first few jumps getting use to it.

[lippy 765]

I'm sure that this can go without saying, but since I love the sound of my own voice....Whatever you end up jumping on your first 'transition jump' make sure you open plenty high and get a feel for the canopy. How it flies, how it turns, and most importantly how it flares.

Have fun!

I got nuthin

[illusioneer 0]

My .02 worth. If you have any doubt, See if they will let you put a demo chute in the student rig... You can demo a size that feels safe to you.

FYI- My first big transition was on my 20th jump. It was my first jump on a used rig i had purchased. I had been flying a 260ft student rig with a load of about .96 until then. I had a malfunction and ended up under a reserve with a load around 1.2 and I LOVED IT. Didn't stand up the landing but it was not hard to make the change.

[billvon 2,384]

A few comments:

>So far I've been jumping Mantas (260 sq feet I believe)

288 sq ft, and generally F111. Most other mains are ZP.

>So, is it ALWAYS a bad idea for novices to exceed 1:1 (even if only by a
>little bit)or does it really depend on the individual?

It depends more on the training you are getting than the 'individual.' If you are learning flat turns, flare turns, stalls, stall recovery, turbulence procedures etc then it's not as big a deal. If you just had a radio for a few jumps until you could land in the general vicinity and sorta stand it up, then you have to progress a lot more slowly since you will be learning by trial and error.

>Further, what do you think about a student transitioning in one jump
>straight from a 260 to a 190? I assume I would probably be on radio or
>something for that jump.

Again, depends on the training you get. If you're worried about it make a few jumps on a Silhouette 230 or equivalent.

[sparkie 0]

Quote

What do you guys think about a student jumping a 190?

If you dont go over the 1.1 WL much and have a conservative canopy and dont make agressive low turns and instructors that know you do not advise against it i'd say go for it ;P

I weigh 220 lbs ext weight. @25 or 30 jumps i went from student canopy (280 sq ft) to a pilot 210 till I had about 120 jumps or so and then went to a pilot 168.

Now the pilot isnt the most agressive canopy and i am not into high performance landings yet but i can see why most people here caution newbies (like myself ;P) when it comes to downsizing. The canopy i have now loses A LOT more alti when its turned. I went from WL of 1,05 or so to 1,31. There is a lot of potential danger in that 0,26 extra WL.

Since imo your choices depend on your currency, learning curve and experience I think its still best to talk to instructors that know you.

keep in mind that i have >100 jumps and therefore I know it all

[d123 1]

Quote

288 sq ft, and generally F111. Most other mains are ZP.

Who makes the Manta288? I've looked over the net and all I could found was a ZP Manta that doesn't have the size 288. Maybe that's what he's jumped. http://www.flightconceptsint.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=19

I've actually jumped a MANTA288 twice but I can't find who manufactures them.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[billvon 2,384]

>Who makes the Manta288?

Glide Path initially, then Flight Concepts (once they did the name change thing.)

[Bill_K 0]

Ryan,

I am not an instructor and don't claim to know anything. However that said I know what I did. I'm a bigger guy too, around 190 myself. I bought my own gear early. I went from the Student canopy's at my DZ to a Triathlon 220 around jump 10 I think it was. I then stayed on that at around 1:1 until I was over 100 jumps. I also did Scott Millers course during that time. I think that had I have gone from a 260 to a 190 like I'm on now that I would have likely broken something.

My pre-second jump on my 190 the winds shifted while we were in the air and everybody on the load got to do down wind landings. So here I am on my pre-second jump with a new canopy doing a down winder... thankfully other than tripping at the end of the run out I was not hurt, just a little grass stained. Dealing with that at <20-25 jumps... I might have broken a leg or worse.

Don't be in a huge hurry to down size to far to fast. I was coached to stay around 1:1. I am a fixed wing CFII and I took Scott's course at around 25-27 jumps. I have had stand up landings since day one and most of the time with 10 meters of my mark. Still my instructors recommended that I take my time; so I've trusted them and done so. For me that's worked out well. Several times I found smaller canopies here on DZ.com and each time was recommended to wait. So I did.

Take care of your self out there. Down size with the advice of your instructors and take it slow. You don't want to break a leg (or worse) and have to take 2-4 months off and then start all over.

Good luck, stay safe, blue sky's

BK