skinnyshrek 0 #1 July 31, 2007 I have videoed a couple of AFF instructors who i believe , have no business being instructors. Watching them spin a student and cause them to go unstable is fucking ridiculous. I have tried the approach with them asking them why they failed the student knowing it was their fault. Their response basically is i am an instructor i know what i am doing. Basically, i am asking what happened to the standards years back when it took a few attempts. I may post the videos and see what you folks think. Me personally, think these instuctors have no business being in the air with students. They also have no businesss jumping the canopies they do.http://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 July 31, 2007 Makes you wonder sometimes just how in the hell do they get the ratings....Makes you wonder how after getting the rating, I's are free to do anything they want even at the expense of the student's safety. Not only that, but when you see Instructors setting very bad examples for the students, it just makes me want to choke somebody. - can't land the canopy they fly - doing cross-pattern swoops in the main, pattern landing area - selling them on canopies that too small for the skill level - instructors telling the same student to do the same thing two different ways on the same day (do it MY way, not the other I's way) You see it all over the country. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #4 July 31, 2007 QuoteMakes you wonder sometimes just how in the hell do they get the ratings There are still course directors who will let you write a check for your ratings and same for renewals. It all in who you know.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #5 July 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteMakes you wonder sometimes just how in the hell do they get the ratings There are still course directors who will let you write a check for your ratings and same for renewals. It all in who you know. I think we have a winner. Even the tandem rating i believe is easy to get. I have no desire for either. My passion is video. But watching some of these supposedly AFF instuctors is damn right shameful.http://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #6 July 31, 2007 It is EASY to critique and condemn the training methods we see, especially if it does not fit into the format of our own personal philosophy. The fact is that there are really quality instructors, and some who are not up to or do not have the ability or do not care to get up to a high standard. It is easy to see deficiencies in the various training methods employed at the same skydiving school, but lets also keep in mind that there are few centers who develop a curriculum that is precise enough to standardize the training methods of each instructor in their fold and furthermore to develop a training manual for all of their instructional staff that keeps them on the same page. Also, there is the notion that not all skydiving students learn the same way so it is important to have a variety of instructors with different methods to reach out to a wider range of students. I am not saying I disagree with that notion, but a quality instructor will have the ability to be flexible enough to fit into a variety of personalities that enable him/her to be able to teach to a wide variety of students. Quality instructors tht have this ability are often times utilizing their God given talents in a profession that enables them to enjoy a higher quality of lifestyle. Not all instructors are lousy at what they do. Just like school teachers, professors, soldiers, some are good; some do not put forth their best effort. I learned years ago to keep my comments to myself, and inspire other instructors to be the best they can be by leading by example, by doing my best. I would re-think calling others out publicly, get your rating and lead by example because it seems that you may be one of the ones that care. Lead by example and more will follow the light that shines brightly and inspires by their outstanding quality, less will follow and be inspired by condemnation. There really are some good instructors out there.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #7 July 31, 2007 hell yes there are some awesome instructors out there..But what do you do to the ones that get their rating and all of a sudden think they are god. No matter how hard you advise them show them the video where they fucked up. Talk to them about what advice they are giving to students. I guess i will just have to get my rating to try and help the students betterhttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #8 July 31, 2007 QuoteI have videoed a couple of AFF instructors who i believe , have no business being instructors. You in your last post said you don't want to be an "I"... But you wish to bash the "I"s publicly on these forums and post videos? Perhaps offer the videos to the course directors and USPA so they can see what needs improvement if you want to make a change. If you are so good, then why don't you become an instructor or evaluator for the directors so you can make the rating harder? If all the good guys claim that all they are passionate about is video (and people tell me their choice is video over AFF because it pays more, is less work, and is more relaxing), then you will have a hard time finding the best instructors. If all the good guys blame the system, the system will stay broken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #9 July 31, 2007 Quotei will just have to get my rating to try and help the students better and inspire other instructors to put forth more effot. Quality, and mediocrity is infectious.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #10 July 31, 2007 Quote My passion is video. In general video flyers who been doing it awhile make really good AFFI's do to the large amount of proxmity flying they do and AFF takes good proxmity flying skills, try it you might like it, some of those Lv 1's can be a wild ass ride....you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #11 July 31, 2007 Quote Quote Makes you wonder sometimes just how in the hell do they get the ratings There are still course directors who will let you write a check for your ratings and same for renewals. It all in who you know. Please tell me who those people are. I've spend a couple hundred bucks on pre-course training dives with a course evaluator just to raise my awareness of the various circumstances that might be placed before me. On the flip side, as a video guy, I recently went out on a release dive where the student was causing the spin. Jumpmaster reversed his grip, it stopped the spin, he took back original grip. He was mismatched for her, he knew that going in and bulked up. When he released her, he sank. I watched him try everything to get up to her, but couldn't. He burbled her to drop her to his level. I thought it was an error on his part, til we examined the video. A student watching the vid exclaimed loudly that the student really screwed up flying over the instructor. Had I not known of it as a technique...I probably would have thought "how dumb of the instructor to fly directly beneath her." In other words, I realize you have a couple thousand jumps; but I watched a non-AFFI with a couple thousand jumps try telling the jumpmaster I was with, that he'd screwed up. The AFFI I was with has around 6000 skydives, of which at least 40% are AFF dives. BTW, when he debriefed the dive with me privately, he explained why, how, and when (if ever) that particular technique should be considered. In nearly 100 AFF videos, I'd never seen this used. However...if I can forego the education I'm getting, screw the training, I'd be happier to "buy" my AFF I rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #12 July 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteI have videoed a couple of AFF instructors who i believe , have no business being instructors. You in your last post said you don't want to be an "I"... But you wish to bash the "I"s publicly on these forums and post videos? Perhaps offer the videos to the course directors and USPA so they can see what needs improvement if you want to make a change. If you are so good, then why don't you become an instructor or evaluator for the directors so you can make the rating harder? If all the good guys claim that all they are passionate about is video (and people tell me their choice is video over AFF because it pays more, is less work, and is more relaxing), then you will have a hard time finding the best instructors. If all the good guys blame the system, the system will stay broken. Actually, i am in the video for fun. i don't need to work in skydiving to make money. I do believe the system needs changing how is bashing someone when you have tried everything to help them attain a batter quality of service to the customers when their attitude is well i am an instuctor. I don't claim to be good or great. I have no desire to be an instuctor as i probably am not a good teacher. As fo my flying skills, i would probably pass. Like i said i love shooting video, i will shoot video for nothing as that is what i am passionate abouthttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #13 July 31, 2007 QuoteYou in your last post said you don't want to be an "I"... But you wish to bash the "I"s publicly on these forums and post videos? Perhaps offer the videos to the course directors and USPA so they can see what needs improvement if you want to make a change. Do something like that you get marked in your permanent record as a rat/snitch and boat rocker, next thing you know the "good ol boy network" is in full swing and from then on if you call HQ and they type in your name or license number little red flags pop out of the top of the monitors and warning sirens go off. Quote why don't you become an instructor or evaluator for the directors Again see "good ol boy network" you have to be a card carrying member in most circles, not all, but most.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #14 July 31, 2007 I know your kidding and also you have morals, and beside that you look funny, so I don't think they would care much for the likes of you. But hey why even waste your time in USPA if your willing to move you can get one of those fake made up AFF ratings issued to you and not have to pay a USPA membership.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 July 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteMakes you wonder sometimes just how in the hell do they get the ratings There are still course directors who will let you write a check for your ratings and same for renewals. It all in who you know. Look at teh list of Course Directors on the USPA's website and you'll be able to see how low the standards have slipped.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #16 July 31, 2007 I have seen questionable AFF instructor jumps at several DZs in the past, mostly through reviewing video. There was one jump I saw on video that showed the student completely out of control and the instructors couldn't do a damn thing and the student ended up pulling his reserve while on his back because he couldn't get stable. I won't name the DZ, but like it would matter anyway, it's not there anymore."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #17 July 31, 2007 QuoteThere was one jump I saw on video that showed the student completely out of control and the instructors couldn't do a damn thing and the student ended up pulling his reserve while on his back because he couldn't get stable. I am not condemning or defending – but we cannot always make the save, that is why we train student to deploy on their own when things go to shit. At least the student got something out eh?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #18 July 31, 2007 Quote Quote There was one jump I saw on video that showed the student completely out of control and the instructors couldn't do a damn thing and the student ended up pulling his reserve while on his back because he couldn't get stable. I am not condemning or defending – but we cannot always make the save, that is why we train student to deploy on their own when things go to shit. At least the student got something out eh? Yeah, he sure did... he was a big dude though, would have made it very difficult for most instructors to get ahold of him. Nevertheless, he failed that level. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #19 July 31, 2007 Quote He burbled her to drop her to his level. BTW, when he debriefed the dive with me privately, he explained why, how, and when (if ever) that particular technique should be considered. Tricky and potentially dangerous maneuver. “How Why and If Ever” is a great choice of words. Sometimes we gosta do what we gosta do! For me, (in hind sight) it is best to dress for success, and when we are outside of our envelope to get another instructor to work with a particular student. Still, sometimes we gosta do what we gosta do! An instructor with that much practical experience can often be proficient at tricks of the trade that walk along the knife’s edge; there is no substitute for experience! I would love to see that video to learn from...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #20 July 31, 2007 Quote Quote Quote There was one jump I saw on video that showed the student completely out of control and the instructors couldn't do a damn thing and the student ended up pulling his reserve while on his back because he couldn't get stable. I am not condemning or defending – but we cannot always make the save, that is why we train student to deploy on their own when things go to shit. At least the student got something out eh? Yeah, he sure did... he was a big dude though, would have made it very difficult for most instructors to get ahold of him. Nevertheless, he failed that level. Sometimes when we see something on video that looks difficult, it is in reality a million times more difficult when in the air with that crazy ass shit out of control student. I never had more respect for solo freefall instructors until I got to taste the bitter juice myself. Sometimes it is not so easy, sometimes it is impossible - that is why we train them to deploy once a certain amount of shit has been flung off of the fan blades... Still, my favorite type of skydive ever is a first release dive (better than night jumps, almost as good as raunchy sex)! Awesome adrenaline, spidey sense tingling like crazy!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 July 31, 2007 1) There was an Instructor shortage in 2001. USPA responded by lowering the standards to become an AFFI. 2) DZO's make their money from AFF by the quantity of jumps, not the quality of the instruction on those jumps.. 3) DZO's make more money with poor AFFI's since the students are more likely to have to repeat levels because of the AFFI's mistakes and/or poor instruction. 4) There will always be skydivers that want to get paid to skydive and will do it as independent contractors for lousy pay, lousy treatment, and no benefits. 5) There are no standards for currency, just do at least 15 AFF jumps/year and you are good to go. Doesn't matter if the next time you saw the student after exit was on the ground for those 15 AFF jumps. 6) As long as USPA continues to represent DZO's and not skydivers and skydive Instructors, there are jumpers willing to work for cheap in lousy conditions, and Instructor turn-over remains high, nothing will change. 6) Students always think their Instructor(s) are 'awesome'/'the best', because they are much better than the student and the student has no experience base to determine the quality of the skydiving instruction they receive. 7) An AFFI with 500 AFF jumps and that is really good, makes the same as an inexperienced, poor AFFI. 8) It is much easier for a DZO to influence/pressure a brand new AFFI into pushing safety limits in the interest of profit than an experienced AFFI. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #22 July 31, 2007 Hook, Why don't you post some of your experiences working for Skyventure franchise tunnels where instructors have continuing education and pay for performance. I know you shouldn't and can't post compensation related things, but maybe some of the stuff you have told me in person about the continuing education would inspire DZOs and AFFIs reading this to do some "continuing education drills." Sharing how it works on the other side of the fence will help others see what I believe is a good training system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #23 July 31, 2007 QuoteWhy don't you post some of your experiences working for Skyventure franchise tunnels where instructors have continuing education and pay for performance. Because DZO's don't want to do that. Why pay an experienced AFFI more when you can fire them and hire 2 new ones if they complain about pay? In the tunnel, it is just you and the student. If something happens, it is the Instructor's fault, they cannot blame the student or another Instructor. It pays to have quality Instructors in the tunnel, it doesn't pay to have quality Instructors at the DZ. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #24 July 31, 2007 You're assuming all DZO's think this way; I don't believe that's a fair assessment. It's understood that in the tunnel it's different, more personal, and in some ways more valuable, but don't you think there are DZO's out there that would like to know what others are doing? I'd surely like to know. I'd love it if I (and our other AFFI's) could fly in the air anywhere near as well as most of the tunnel coaches I've seen in the tunnel. And be compensated for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 July 31, 2007 Quote You're assuming all DZO's think this way Not at all. Some actually do care. But how can they afford to pay their AFFI's more and still compete with the DZ down the road? QuoteIt's understood that in the tunnel it's different, more personal, and in some ways more valuable, but don't you think there are DZO's out there that would like to know what others are doing? If you know a DZO that is interested in how our training, currency, etc program works, I would be more than happy to explain everything to them. QuoteI'd surely like to know. I'd love it if I (and our other AFFI's) could fly in the air anywhere near as well as most of the tunnel coaches I've seen in the tunnel. I think the tunnel is a very valuable tool for AFFI's. Imagine doing AFF, but having to keep the student within a 12-foot tube and control their fall rate. QuoteAnd be compensated for it. Maybe you could approach your DZO with a request for them to pay for tunnel time with the condition that the time be used to improve your AFF skills only. The DZO gets better AFFI's, you get free tunnel time. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
