Cessna Caravan

[riggerrob 558]

Bench/toboggan seats will spoil you in any airplane.

[billvon 2,380]

> and they don't have FOD separators.

While I agree they're not great short-field aircraft, they do indeed have inertial separators; these are used more for icing than for FOD rejection though.

[Unstable 8]

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While I agree they're not great short-field aircraft, they do indeed have inertial separators; these are used more for icing than for FOD rejection though.

I'm sorry for sounding ignorant, but coud someone please explain to me what a FOD seperator and a inertial serarator does and how they function?

=========Shaun ==========

[billvon 2,380]

>but coud someone please explain to me what a FOD seperator and
>a inertial serarator does and how they function?

Some turbines are straight-through - air comes in the front, is compressed, is combined with fuel and burned, then exits through the rear. The PT6 engine, however, works the opposite way - air enters from the BACK and exhaust exits through the front. That's one reason King Airs and Otters have their exhausts towards the front of the engine instead of straight out the rear of the nacelle.

This means the air has to make a 180 degree turn at some point. The air comes in the intake scoop, then turns 180 to get into the compressor.

Now on to the inertial separator.

When stuff other than air enters a turbine engine it can cause problems. Water (rain/spray) causes temperature/mixture problems, dust causes erosion of blades, ice/gravel can cause mechanical damage. Since those engines suck a lot of air they can suck that stuff into the compressor and bad things can ensue.

Inertial separators take advantage of that 180 degree turn. In normal operation the duct is closed so all the air it takes in goes to the engine. When the separator is enabled, the air goes in two directions - it goes straight out the back (usually through a door you can open) _and_ into the engine. Air has low mass so doesn't have much trouble making the 180. Things with mass (ice, gravel, raindrops) tend to keep going in a straight line right out the back of the duct, instead of making the 180 turn. This helps protect the engine from ice particles/rain etc.

[Unstable 8]

Thank you - that explains a lot. I See a LOT of PT-6's at work, but I've never considered how they operate. I'm going downstairs to see for myself!

=========Shaun ==========

[diablopilot 2]

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Hopefully the new otter production will put downward pressure on old Otter pricing.

I seriously doubt it. Look at what happened to the price os older light Cessnas when Cessna started building light GA aircraft again. They went UP!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[davelepka 4]

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Hopefully the new otter production will put downward pressure on old Otter pricing.

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I seriously doubt it. Look at what happened to the price os older light Cessnas when Cessna started building light GA aircraft again. They went UP!

I agree. With new parts available, as well as updated components and systems ( the glass panel for example), an updated old Otter becomes a more attractive option for operators with deeper pockets than most DZO's.

I still think bigger DZ's will keep flying Otters, but as the fleet ages, the operational costs will push the smaller DZ's into other AC.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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The numbers I keep running tell me that in a few years, the Cessna Caravan will be one of the most economical jumpships out there on the market. Relativly new, (Production started in mid-80's) right now Cessna is producing one roughly every 18 working hours minus parts shortages (I know because I am posting this directly above the main production line)

What limitations does the Cessna Caravan have when compared to an Otter, the standard jumpship?

Otters are going back into production... not in big numbers for now, but I imagine lots of spare parts may also be made, since a market for new planes should mean a strong after-market also. This, to me, means that the otter will remain the large-DZ plane of choice for awhile.

Limitations of the Caravan:

- slower climb rate! it's the same engine, but you've only got 1... find me a caravan that climbs in 15 minutes full.
- Prop-blast. For us 4-way nerds, bad propblast sucks. That said, I have plenty of jumps out of both, and can say that a good, courteous caravan pilot will provide a more comfortable exit than an otter pilot who doesn't give a shit and gives the green light at 110 knots in a left-hand bank.

there's other small disadvantages... smaller door, less ability to climb around outside. I doubt you'd want to train 8-way out of one. But overall that stuff is no big deal and wouldn't work into a DZO's radar.

Limitations of the Otter:

- You've got to fill it. High fuel prices & more maintenace mean needing 12 or more people to fly. No problem in Eloy or Deland, but a caravan is a much better fit at many smaller DZ's.

- By the same token, if you're on the edge you might have to shut down an otter between every load whereas you could fly back-to-backs on a caravan. This nullifies much of the climb rate advantage of the otter and means more cost (engine cycles drive more maintenance than flight hours), especially with 2 engines.

Personally, I've flown both and they're both good planes. Ideally I want an otter, but I'd rather have a caravan if it means the DZ stays in buisiness and/or they can keep jump prices from skyrocketing. It's not worth a $25 otter ticket if I can get an $18 caravan ticket (current rate for 25 ticket blocks at my DZ!) Plus, the pilot makes all the difference.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Michael Mullins flew his King Air in and out of his grass runway for years without a problem. Even then, he got it paved. Not many pilots can fly a King Air like he can.

Does the King Air have higher pressure tires than the Caravan or Twin Otter? Higher weight per square inch of tire footprint causes problems on soft runways. High performance retractables tend to have high pressure, small footprint tires.

[bob.dino 0]

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You can get a new XL for the price of a 2nd hand Caravan.

Ummm, maybe a new XL for the price of two 2nd hand caravans? At least in the US...

It's been a couple of years since I looked at prices and the USD has nosedived versus pretty much every other currency (including the NZD), so you may well be right.

I should've checked before spouting old data. Sorry .

[Beerlight 0]

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Michael Mullins flew his King Air in and out of his grass runway for years without a problem. Even then, he got it paved. Not many pilots can fly a King Air like he can.

Does the King Air have higher pressure tires than the Caravan or Twin Otter? Higher weight per square inch of tire footprint causes problems on soft runways. High performance retractables tend to have high pressure, small footprint tires.

Mullins flew his KA off our bumpy ass grass/dirt 2600ft strip in San Antonio for a 3-day boogie during warm weather. No issues that I'm aware of.

[mnealtx 0]

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bumpy ass grass/dirt 2600ft strip in San Antonio

Huh? There's a DZ in San Antonio??

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Beerlight 0]

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bumpy ass grass/dirt 2600ft strip in San Antonio

Huh? There's a DZ in San Antonio??

WAS a dz... guess I should have stated that... It closed sometime around 2000-2002.

AKA, Midlake. 25 SE of San Antonio.

[mnealtx 0]

Ah, ok....thanks for the info.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skytash 0]

I'm amazed CofG only came up once so far. From my perspective that is the biggest problem with the Grand Caravan. The standard one fits fewer people and the Grand doesn't allow a chunk out .

Mind you, here in the UK where we haven't had an Otter flying skydivers in the last 10 years, Grand Caravans are the favoured plane. As for 4-way and 8-way, our 8-way teams manage just fine, although point is a fund spot with good upper body strength and an understanding of climbing principles! One girl who flies point on one of the 8-way teams showed me her way of climbing out on the front step and getting back behind the line, which is the way that 8-way plus camera need to launch. Works fine once you get the hang of it, and it makes front float on a Otter feel like a piece of cake.

I'd have a skyvan any day, an Otter if necessary () and will drive to get to a Grand Caravan. My nearest DZ has a G92 (the one that only operates a day a week from a piston Islander doesn't count) but still tend to drive further to jump from the Grand Caravans at Langar or Nethers.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[diablopilot 2]

The Grand is nice with the extra room, but I prefer how much faster the Standard climbs.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rushmc 18]

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The Grand is nice with the extra room, but I prefer how much faster the Standard climbs.

It will be fun to see the new Caravan at my home DZ in about 3 weeks.. It is a grand with freight doors (no windows yet) Howevery the turbine is in for an overhaul and has been upgraded to 675 ponies (up from 600) and has a brand new prop..

I will keep you posted

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[diablopilot 2]

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The Grand is nice with the extra room, but I prefer how much faster the Standard climbs.

It will be fun to see the new Caravan at my home DZ in about 3 weeks.. It is a grand with freight doors (no windows yet) Howevery the turbine is in for an overhaul and has been upgraded to 675 ponies (up from 600) and has a brand new prop..

I will keep you posted

That should be a nice ship! If it's got the benches in it, even better. One thing I don't like about the freight version is the lack of windows. I think it can contribute to first timers queasiness.

Have fun.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rushmc 18]

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The Grand is nice with the extra room, but I prefer how much faster the Standard climbs.

It will be fun to see the new Caravan at my home DZ in about 3 weeks.. It is a grand with freight doors (no windows yet) Howevery the turbine is in for an overhaul and has been upgraded to 675 ponies (up from 600) and has a brand new prop..

I will keep you posted

That should be a nice ship! If it's got the benches in it, even better. One thing I don't like about the freight version is the lack of windows. I think it can contribute to first timers queasiness.

Have fun.

He plans windows in the future (there is an STC) (I think STC is the correct letters)but the money he has spent so far must be a staggering amount so I think they will have to wait awhile.

The benches are being built as we type and I will be sewing the covers for him once we can measure them.

Should be fun

It already has about 6' of bars above the door and the door is about 4' wide. Good for tandems and larger chunks.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[bclark 0]

We got a Grand Caravan last year. Before the Caravan if we didn't have 10 for the Otter it was a 182 load. The Caravan is the perfect in between airplane for us. So good the 182 got SOLD. (YES!) The door is a little shorter and it is a little slower. Jumpers who are used to a Super Otter sometimes need to be reminded that the Caravan is not as forgiving of aft CG. The belly flyers (8 and 16 way teams) don't like it, but for 4 way, freeflyers, tandems, etc it is great. And I for one am ecstatic that as long as I am here I will never have to do another tandem out of a 182! Woo Hoo!

[mbondvegas 0]

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I can tell you there are 15 people that will agree with you. Dead Stick from 4k from about 10 miles out back to the airport. I was just glad I wasn't on that load. Our Pilot's a STUD. Hope the new engine is put in soon I miss that plane but the TO from eloy has been rather nice

What happened to the engine, exactly?

- - -
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[taron 0]

Our nice Caravan in Normandy, I think it's the only one in France.

[rushmc 18]

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We got a Grand Caravan last year. Before the Caravan if we didn't have 10 for the Otter it was a 182 load. The Caravan is the perfect in between airplane for us. So good the 182 got SOLD. (YES!) The door is a little shorter and it is a little slower. Jumpers who are used to a Super Otter sometimes need to be reminded that the Caravan is not as forgiving of aft CG. The belly flyers (8 and 16 way teams) don't like it, but for 4 way, freeflyers, tandems, etc it is great. And I for one am ecstatic that as long as I am here I will never have to do another tandem out of a 182! Woo Hoo!

Big doors and tandems. Good mix

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln