Time to do away with the "coach" rating

[Airman1270 0]

Really, what exactly is a "coach" rating and what does it prove?

During a recent DZ trip I was standing at manifest, trying to find people to jump with. Most of the load included instructor/student groups and head-down flyers. The only people left to jump with were recent graduates. "No problem" said I, as I've always enjoyed jumping with the newbies. "Wait a minute, not so fast..." was the approximate nature of the response.

Do I have a coach rating?

"No" answered I. I don't need one. I have been jumping for many years and have hundreds of jumps. I've jumped many times over the years with recent graduates. I'm more than qualified. "But" said the nice manifest lady "...these new jumpers don't have licenses yet. USPA says you'll end up killing each other if you jump together."

My question - If they are not safe to jump unsupervised, why were they permitted to graduate from the student program? And if they are in fact safe and are qualified to have graduated, why can't they jump with me?

In other words, what the hell damn difference does it make whether they are licensed or not? It's only a
two-way! If jumping with me is so fucking risky, how is it I've been jumping with these people for over 20 years without incident?

There are people who have far less experience than I do who have played the game, submitted a check, and have seen their names listed as "coaches" in the back pages of the magazine. Meanwhile, the DZO is required to treat me like a disease so as not to run afoul of divine USPA "recommendations."

I did another solo.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[dharma1976 0]

cause it legally covers the schools arse...

also if they are not licensed you need an instructional rating to jump with them period...

licensed means a licensed then you can do whatever you want with em...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[crotalus01 0]

I don't get it myself, but surely you qualify for a D license? D licensed jumpers were recently granted approval from USPA to jump with those off student status but not yet licensed...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[Airman1270 0]

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I don't get it myself, but surely you qualify for a D license? D licensed jumpers were recently granted approval from USPA to jump with those off student status but not yet licensed...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

True. Except for jumping into a swimming pool with a canopy over my head I qualified for the "D" years ago. The DZO knows my capabilities. My point is that I'm being told that I'm suddenly no longer qualified to do something I've been doing safely since the mid-1980's.

Whether the new jumpers are licensed or not is irrelevant. They've been taught the basics and have proven they can jump without an instructor's supervision. Hence, they are "qualified." If not, they should still be students.

1) Students.
2) Graduates.

Why are we trying so hard to invent an "in between" category? Who benefits?

Cheers,
Jon

[skinnyshrek 0]

I have seen your air skills john they suck NO seriously, i think the coach rating is bullshit. You can obtain this rating at 100 jumps Just another way for the uspa and dropzone to make some money i guess

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[PhreeZone 14]

D licenced jumpers still need to be signed off by the S&TA to jump with unlicenced jumpers.

In terms of what a coach is there for, mainly they are there to do the later stages of the ISP (Cat G and H) so the instructors can do the A-F jumps and so the Coaches can teach most the ground school. Until the jumper is licenced they are still a student.

Some of the items that a coach should be able to cover in detail include the ability to correctly cover the briefing hitting the right points in an order that maximises the students ability to learn. They should also be able to correctly debrief a student and ensure that they are recieving the right type of feedback to progress their skill levels. This involves using positive language "Next time extend your legs more" vs " You didn't have your legs out enough", being able to maintain the flow of a briefing and a debriefing. The Coach should also know where to set break off at no matter what the student wants to pull at and how many points they should try to cover in the briefing to allow the student to really progress. A coach usually also goes over the canopy flight plan prior to the jump.

I don't see many experienced jumpers that do not have a rating already using any of those skills on a typical "newbie jump", they typically are thrown together at the 20 with only the freefall planned. One of the other items that I constantly see well meaning jumpers trying to "help" newbies on and only hurting them is the "You pull in place, I'll track" mindset. The coach rating makes sure that all jumpers nationwide that are working with students at least all have the same starting level of knowledge and skills.

I've recently had to start using some of the same skills on a group of jumpers that have been jumping 3 times as long as me but have half the jumps. This is working out nicely since their skills are improving and I am getting better at debriefing groups.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

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I have seen your air skills john they suck NO seriously, i think the coach rating is bullshit. You can obtain this rating at 100 jumps Just another way for the uspa and dropzone to make some money i guess

That's correct. You can obtain this rating if you pay your money, take the course, and pass the exams both aerial and written. If you don't have the rating, then it doesn't affect you. If you do have the rating, it paves the way for AFF and Tandem instruction. Believe it or not, some folks like having ratings, certifications, lambskin on their walls, if for no other reason than demonstrating that they've taken an active effort to improve themselves and their knowledge. Is it really so worthy of your disdain?

The issue here isn't whether one has to be coach-rated or not to jump with unlicensed skydivers, it's a question of whether a D rating should be required.

[skinnyshrek 0]

Actually, i have the rating. I gave it up because at some dzs they feel the need to charge students for jumps with a coach. I got the rating because i like jumping with newbies, teaching them shit. In order for me to do this i have to have a rating.
I was brought up at the ranch where peeps with 10,000 jumps would jump with you with no rating. Just because they had the skill. I just like to give back in my own way. If getting a coach rating enables this then fine. As far as i have seen.People who have no business being in the air with students obtain this rating. Yes they got the rating but oh well. I believe i got the rating around 600 jumps. I believe a was lucky. One i passed no problem. The other was done in lake wales by a very qualified instuctor. She may of felt sorry for me either way, just because you have a coach rating does not mean you are a better skydiver than someone with 1000's of jumps and it works both ways. Some very skilled people out there with a couple of hundred jumps....
So, at what point do you go well, this person doesn't have a d license or coach rating but they are qualified to jump with this graduated student....Only the DZO and Sn TA can deceie that one

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[DSE 3]

I don't disagree that there are bad coaches out there.
Guy in my class had 200 jumps, passed the written, passed the air evals no sweat. He's very current. 'Nother guy with 700+ jumps had to cheat on the written test, didn't do so hot on his first evals. Then his friend passed him off. One is a great instructor, one isn't. Who knows...I might suck too, and just don't know it.
But...
IMO, the coach rating is more about the rating holder than anything else. He/she chased knowledge, and I feel that's much of what the rating is about; becoming better and prepping for the next steps. Being a coach forces one to either observe and communicate or go home when it comes to jumping with students.
At the end of the day, does the student learn more from the coach or the 10K experienced guy? Maybe as much or more from the coach, simply because (assuming the coach *really* passed the course), the coach has a better set of tools with which to teach. That doesn't mean he/she can fly better than the 10K jumper, it only means he/she has been given tools to help them teach better. There again, there may be (and likely is) that 10K experienced guy that naturally possesses these same teaching skills. Not every DZ has the 10K jumpers that will jump with the newbies. Many (and I'd wager most) don't.
My first trip to Perris? Nightmarish, even though I asked manifest to help me out. Similar story at a couple other DZ's.

Of course, I'll likely change my opinion when I reach 10K jumps.

[skinnyshrek 0]

The coach rating is intense ground school no doubt. Teaches you a lot with dealing with students. If the air skills were a little stricter then it would be awesome. Now that brings me to another point. It is hard to find some of the really great skydivers with thousands of jumps helping out the really young jumpers. Unless a fee is paid! I love going up shooting video for them and getting a great skydiver to debrief the jumpers. This happened at The Redemption Boogie. Thanks Sandy and jim(justchutemenow) I wish more people were like this. I don't know if they had a coach rating but i do know they are shit hot skydivers.. Debriefing the students gave them a smile much greater than any money. Even when i had the rating and jumped with students i never wanted to take a dime. Beer yes but the money was no big deal

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[kelpdiver 2]

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My point is that I'm being told that I'm suddenly no longer qualified to do something I've been doing safely since the mid-1980's.

Nothing has changed with the regulations recently with respects to you. If you're not a coach now a D license with whatever criteria, students aren't supposed to be jumping with out. Been that way for at least several years.

I view the AFF (or SL) supervised portion as the part where the jumper proves he probably won't kill himself.

The remainder of the jumps to get to the A he proves that he probably won't kill others. He does that doing some of the jumps with the rated people.

After that, he can jump with the rest of the licensed jumpers.

[popsjumper 2]

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Really, what exactly is a "coach" rating and what does it prove?

It proves that the holder went through the training and passed the course.

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Do I have a coach rating?
"No" answered I. I don't need one.

Ahhh...but you do. Rules, like 'em or hate 'em, apply to everyone.

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My question - If they are not safe to jump unsupervised,

They are "safe" to jump self-supervised.

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why can't they jump with me?

Because you have no rating or D-license...as per current rules (that apply to everyone).

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There are people who have far less experience than I do who have played the game...

Not a game.

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Meanwhile, the DZO is required to treat me like a disease...

Sorry you choose to see it that way.

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...so as not to run afoul of divine USPA "recommendations."

Some DZOs take the Group Membership pledge seriously and are to be commended.

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I did another solo.

Solos are fun!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tdog 0]

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I did another solo.

And you probably should have.

You are unwilling to get a "D" or a "Coach Rating", so why should anyone assume you will spend the time required to work with a student?

A student just off AFF is still "fragile". They have not learned how to track (well), they are not used to less formal dive flows where altitude awareness is not built in, etc.

The coach rating simply proves you can teach the fundamentals, track like hell when they don't, and understand their limits. By your post, you seem to assume they know everything they need to jump with others, but if you have jumped with so many you can see how poorly they can track until they are taught.

It is not about jump numbers, but attitude, willingness to teach, core knowledge, and proving a mindset that promotes learning for all involved.

I could argue that your 800 jumps is a lot. I could also argue that the 34 on average you do a year keeps you very uncurrent as I have jumped with 34 students in the last month, and I know full time AFFIs who jump with hundreds more a year than I do. See how jump numbers lie? The only truth is a fair evaluation. If you think the evaluators suck, then work to get rid of them.

Why not just get your D licence, work with the DZO to prove you are a damn fine example to the students, and jump with them, instead of bitching here.

(Ok, I admit I am a bit feisty tonight, search my posts, not my normal style, but I am fed up with the old farts who bitch, and the new blood that bitches, and everyone else who just can't find a win-win solution instead of finding excuses for why the current system is broken.)

BTW. I love jumping with newbies too, and I refuse to charge money to jump with them on coach jumps, and I gladly paid to do the coach course because my evaluators and instructors taught me a lot, and remain my mentors a few years after getting the rating and my AFFI.

If you think the coach rating or AFFI rating course suck, then you chose the wrong teacher. Back to your (not necessarily Airman1270, but skydivers in general) own fault.

[MarkM 0]

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A student just off AFF is still "fragile". They have not learned how to track (well), they are not used to less formal dive flows where altitude awareness is not built in, etc.

So they're better off jumping alone than with someone who has years of experience?

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(Ok, I admit I am a bit feisty tonight, search my posts, not my normal style, but I am fed up with the old farts who bitch, and the new blood that bitches, and everyone else who just can't find a win-win solution instead of finding excuses for why the current system is broken.)

Considering fewer people are entering/staying in the sport, maybe something in the current system is broken.

How about anyone with a C license, under instructor supervision, can jump with AFF/SL grads. Every "coach" jump like this can be signed off by the instructor and would then count towards earning a coach rating, which requires X many of these jumps.

That earns you your coach rating, which would be required for other instructor ratings or helping an instructor with ground courses.

[Jumpah 0]

Two posts in this thread so far summed up my experience in the course right...its about how to communicate to new skydivers, how to keep yourself and the student from getting you both into trouble, and some techniques you can use to help the student learn what you are teaching them.

Coaches fill a gap that students fall into a couple jumps after they are cleared for solos...they are too new to fly with the big boys and girls, and too old for the AFF-I's to work with constantly.

[DSE 3]

or maybe USPA develops a "coach lite" program that doesn't involve air-work, and only involves teaching briefing/debriefing, and how to speak to a student.
I didn't have coach jumps, just jumps with a guy that was "what the hell were you doing? Didn't you see me doing XXX(insert hand motion here)?

Maybe it's time to lobby the USPA to change the rules. But for the time being, the rules are what they are.
That said, everyone who has paid for coach jumps when they were a non-licensed student, raise your hands. I haven't ever charged for a coach jump, have had a very few jump tickets paid for by two people in particular that repeatedly requested I jump with them, and have never recieved a dime as a coach. At this rate, my rating expenses might pay themselves off (financially) around the year 2075. Spiritually, emotionally, and socially...it paid for itself the day I jumped with my first student.

[tdog 0]

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A student just off AFF is still "fragile". They have not learned how to track (well), they are not used to less formal dive flows where altitude awareness is not built in, etc.

So they're better off jumping alone than with someone who has years of experience?

Yes, because the person with years of experience might be a complete moron (I have jumped with a few, they are fun to jump with once you know they are a moron), and pose hazards to the student that the student is not aware are hazards.

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That earns you your coach rating, which would be required for other instructor ratings or helping an instructor with ground courses.

So many people argue the coach rating is too easy to get. Yet you appear to be arguing to make it easier by allowing someone to jump without being evaluated, and if they have enough of these unevaluated jumps, they get a rating?

Technically evaluators are higher than instructors...

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Considering fewer people are entering/staying in the sport, maybe something in the current system is broken.

Here is my list:

1) DZOs make $95 gross per slot on a tandem. They make $23 gross on a fun jumper. No motivation to keep fun jumpers.

2) Tandem instructors can make 18 jumps in a day, at $30 each. $540. Video guys can make 18 jumps in a day at $40 each. $720. AFF instructors can make 6 jumps in a day at $30 each. $180. If you are at all motivated by money:

-----a) Will you work as an AFFI?
-----b) If you have an AFFI and Tandem rating, which one are you going to promote?

3) The sport is so front end loaded. Gear + AFF jumps = a crap load of dough. DZOs who wanted fun jumpers would do the higher level AFF levels at cost - or maybe at cost if a book of 100 tickets was purchased - or something. $1 more a slot if you got your rating at the DZ, but next to free instruction. Kind of a finance program...

4) "Professional" instructors are too "professional". They don't go out of their way to make friends, instead they see revenue.

5) Instructors are not taught how to sell or motivated to sell.

6) The SIM does not have "have fun" as a TLO for each category, so instructors don't require it.

7) Tunnels are too far apart - and they further separate the good from the bad. "The richer get richer while..." Example, the worlds best freefliers got better because they worked in the tunnel, were given crap loads of time, or purchased crap loads of time. Now the novices are less likely to be invited on the exclusive highly challenging dives unless they can pony up the non-sponsored retail (skydiver) rates.

8) There are no rewards for skydivers (often) to refer friends or promote the sport.

Ok, ok, ok - before you flame... I expressed the furthest end of the spectrum in each example above. There is no black and white, yes or no - each DZ will excel at their own thing... But, I don't think the coach rating is the problem in retention... It is the conversion rate from tandem to AFF level 1, and retention rate thru AFF level 7 - where I see the most students quit...

If anything, the fresh, young, 100 jump wonders, who are so excited to use their new rating, are the ones who will do anything to see their student succeed, where the old time instructors and skydivers rather just make money to pay the bills and/or jump with their own clan of experienced skydivers where they find pleasure and rewards from the challenges that newbies invited on the dive could not handle...

[PhreeZone 14]

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So they're better off jumping alone than with someone who has years of experience?

Depending on the jumper and the student in question? Yes. Its been many years since I was a student but when I had about 28 jumps I was invited on a skydive with a experienced jumper and they made it into a 6 way. They failed to take into account that I was still pulling at 4000-3500 on every skydive and I didn't know better then to argue when they said break off was at 4000. I figured 500 feet was a ton of time to track from a skydive. The jump went to hell and I never made it into the formation. At break off I tracked for about 2 seconds and threw. I pulled as low as I was willing to go at that time and scared everyone else on the jump since there was no seperation when I threw since the were all taking it to 2500 or lower. As soon as I got to the ground the experienced jumper started saying things like "You screwed up this by doing that" or "you completely did this wrong" and things like that. There was never any pointers about how to improve, just a list of things I did wrong on. I was terrorfied after that skydive and just about quit jumping all together since my confidence in skydiving was completely destroyed in the matter of about 5 minutes. In this case it would have been better for me to have done a solo rather then then to do a jump with someone who at the time had more then 3000 jumps simply since the experienced jumper just was not equiped to deal with the knowledge and anxiety level of a student or someone just past student status.

Second aspect to this question is what is the jumpers experience? Have they just been burning holes in the sky or have they actually learned something? Its one thing if you are out advancing your skills from season to season and are staying up to date with the newer techniques like mantis flying and head switches but there is also a large crowd out there that consider it a successful skydive if they just see someone else in freefall let alone actually work with them to learn anything. At 15 jumps would you rather go with someone that flys in and takes a dock on you then spends the rest of the skydive geeking each other or would you rather have someone teach you how to do a floater exit and centerpoint turns? Both are fun and have their place but when should the geeking be done?

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How about anyone with a C license, under instructor supervision, can jump with AFF/SL grads. Every "coach" jump like this can be signed off by the instructor and would then count towards earning a coach rating, which requires X many of these jumps.

The issue with the sign off is that at at the beginning the instructor is going to have to come along to make sure that you are able to actually monitor and correctly debrief the student. Would you really just blindly sign someone off as having the air skills to work with and teach skills? Where does the "coach-lite" learn the skills to teach the FJC and to do the briefings and debrifings? Its not enough just to sign them off for air skills, the ground skills are needed too. At that point you are back to the whole coach course design again.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,380]

> Really, what exactly is a "coach" rating and what does it prove?

That you can teach very basic RW and probably not kill the student in the process.

>"No" answered I. I don't need one.

Actually, you do.

>I have been jumping for many years and have hundreds of jumps.

Hundreds of jumps over many years? That doesn't sound all that current. That would set off alarms if you wanted to jump with one of my recent grads.

Now, if I knew you, I'd probably be OK with it. But just to have someone unknown walk up with (say) 200 jumps over 6 years, and have them jump with a recent grad, could be a problem. The coach rating is one way to help ensure it's not a problem.

>My question - If they are not safe to jump unsupervised, why were they
>permitted to graduate from the student program?

Because saving your own life when you are alone in the sky is easier than saving your life on an N-way. For one thing, you have to track in a N-way. For another thing, there are people to collide with.

>And if they are in fact safe and are qualified to have graduated, why
>can't they jump with me?

See above.

>In other words, what the hell damn difference does it make whether
>they are licensed or not? It's only a two-way!

An AFF level 4 is "only a two-way." Still takes some skill.

>There are people who have far less experience than I do who have
>played the game, submitted a check, and have seen their names listed
>as "coaches" in the back pages of the magazine.

And, of course, demonstrated the skill needed to get their rating. Good for them.

>Meanwhile, the DZO is required to treat me like a disease so as not to
>run afoul of divine USPA "recommendations."

"Treated like a disease?" I have friends who are world record holders. I wouldn't let them jump with me when I was doing a level 7, even if they just wanted to do a "simple, safe 3-way." Does that mean I am treating them like a disease? (Answer - no, and they wouldn't feel that way.)

>I did another solo.

Nothing wrong with that!

[anewempire 0]

when i had about 30 jumps and no A license yet me and a TI/AFF instructor from my dz were at another dz and they wouldn't let me jump with him because i didn't have my A and they treated us like we were crazy and irresponsible. we didn't get it but i guess they just really wanted me to pay $100 for a jump with one of their coaches

[DSE 3]

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when i had about 30 jumps and no A license ....
....we didn't get it but i guess they just really wanted me to pay $100 for a jump with one of their coaches

Or;
a-maybe they preferred you to jump solo because you're an unknown quantity at their DZ.

b-perhaps they didn't have anyone free with a D license to jump with you.

If you have a current AFF instructor with you that they wouldn't allow you to jump with, then something sounds very strange.
Which DZ wouldn't allow a nonlicensed skydiver to jump with a current AFFI?
$100.00 for a coach jump?? Where? I wanna live there.

[PostWhorse 0]

Stop beating me.

Post Whorse was here.
The semi-official dropzone.com mascot.

[Tonto 1]

I think you need to change the title of your thread to "Time to get a coach rating."

800 jumps since the mid 1980's is 35 jumps a year. 24 years in the sport and no D licence. Jumping with students is a serious business. You don't sound very serious to me.

I'm pretty sure some of those 100 jump coaches you have so little respect for could fly circles around you. Some may even have a positive, progressive attitude and may add more value to a 2 way with a student than someone who hasn't worked on a new skill since last century.

Why do you want to jump with students? And if you do, why do you think a coach rating is a bad idea? I'm on another continent, but I'm a USPA member as well as being a member of our own governing body. The cost of a coach rating, or USPA membership is NOTHING compared to the cost of skydiving.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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D licenced jumpers still need to be signed off by the S&TA to jump with unlicenced jumpers.

Not according to the 2007 SIM. The requirement for a coach (under an instructor's supervision) or D-license holder (no supervision requirement, 4-way maximum, at least one D-license holder per student) is waiverable by the S&TA though.

Obviously, DZs are free to impose whatever additional restrictions they want.

[marks2065 0]

i was taught safety and fun from the first jump - the fun seems to have been dropped from the training program - who cares if the student can do 15 points at 20 jumps - they will be around alot longer if they are having fun - safety and fun let the precision come later - lets just get them in the air with a smile on thier face and land safetly - we can teach them how to turn points after they are hooked on the sport - the retention after aff is horrible because it is large amounts of expensive coach jumps with no fun - i like the training for the caoch rating but i think the coach jumps should cost no more than the slots - if you want to make money become an instructor otherwise teach safety and fun for free - jmo