“Talk to your instructors”

[udder 0]

For once0I completely agree with you

I like the cumulative approach. Ask many and form your own judgement. Like I heard a guy with 500 jumps telling a student about spotting using the 45 degree rule. Also I've been shown how to put on PD slinks and Aerodyne slinks incorrectly by two different instructors. I didnt jump either until I had read the instructions and corrected the slinks.

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[popsjumper 2]

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...On the other hand, no one knows the feelings of a student like another student, and there's no reason not to join the feelings/fears/rejoicing threads, or even to sympathize in the asking-for-advice threads.

Good point Wendy. IMO, one of the signs of a good instructor is the ability to relate to what students are going through emotionally. Students can realte to other students in that regard. Empathy is a good thing.

Too often, sadly, we see instructors that have "forgotten" what it's like to be a student.

I am in total support of the feelings/fears/rejoicing threads. Instructors can learn a lot from those threads.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[hexadecimal 0]

A large number of the people who frequent this forum are morons, and it can be difficult for newer people to figure that out. Best to leave the advice to actual skydivers rather than keyboard jockeys who make 20 skydives a year.

[Fast 0]

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A large number of the people who frequent this forum are morons, and it can be difficult for newer people to figure that out. Best to leave the advice to actual skydivers rather than keyboard jockeys who make 20 skydives a year.

here here! One of the most experienced instructors at my DZ has said something like "Stop posting on the internet about skydiving and just go do it"

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Myrka 0]

Hi guys:
I’m reading this thread, and there are many points that I agree with and some that I do not… I can only say this from the student’s perspective, but getting into the sport can be very overwhelming. Even things that seem basic and common sense (i.e. approach aircraft from the back) have to be “taught” to you. Skydiving is the whole new culture within itself! In many ways this can be intimidating. So, doing some “research” before hand may not be a bad idea.

What kind of research is another issue… I think that the person who’s looking for a “fitting” advice or someone who will tell them what they “want to hear” will eventually find what they’re looking for. Many of us, students I guess are just looking up to experienced jumpers for support more than anything. And I also think it’s important to do your own homework. I’ve had my instructors explain to me how canopies behave like wings of the airplanes, but we certainly weren’t getting into Newton nor Bernoulli’s theories… For those that want to learn about the sport, I don’t think it’s a stretch from other disciplines, and same rules apply: #1 respect and learn from your instructors as a primary source of knowledge (and yes, that requires a great deal of trust). #2 Do research from reputable sources, such as USPA Skydiver's Information Manual and just be patient and willing to learn. #3 Share your knowledge and learn from others. Does anyone agree?

[kallend 1,621]

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A large number of the people who frequent this forum are morons,.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[chrismgtis 0]

I have the attitude that while you should always consult instructors at your DZ about anything you are told here, this is still an Internet forum whose entire purpose is to speak to other skydivers, who you can not speak with otherwise - with this you get a much wider range of experiences and expertises.

As far as expertise goes, people don't realize (or ignore) a simple fact that no matter whether you have 50 jumps or 5000, we all progress differently. We all work on different disciplines and progress in each one quicker or less quickly. There are far too many scenarios that make everyones experience different. I may have learned entirely on my own how to do something which a jumper with 5000 jumps still is not proficient at. That is one of those facts of life that you can't really argue with.

Still, you have to argue that you simply can not believe anything you read online, whether a person's point of view, the news, a Wikipedia article or even a paragraph in an encyclopia. You have to be open minded. It's just a requirement that no matter where you get information from you can never really take it as factual information without analyzing that information, getting other opinions and most importantly using your own mind to determine whether, first off if the information is possible or makes sense at all or second if it's information that you can possibly rely on and use. No matter where you get it, that is true.

So, this is an Internet forum. We are here to discuss. We all have our own expertises. Were each different and are more experienced in different areas. While jump numbers is an indicator of experience it's also not an indicator of expertise. One reason for this is frequency. Another is, no one person has the perfect solution to anything.

I do agree with "speak to your instructor", but I don't agree with "don't give out advice here". That is wrong and makes no sense. It's everyone's responsibility to practice common sense and use their own mind. You wouldn't take someone's advice just because they said so, or you shouldn't. We should be able to give out advice and be able to consider it, not ignore it because "You can't listen to anyone on the Internet or", "Instructors know better than skydivers on the Internet". That isn't true. They may know better in some situations, because they may have been there with you, but not in all situations.

Point in conclusion, this is a forum - if you have advice give it. Just practice some common sense and try not to give out ridiculous advice if you can. If you're reading it, use your brain. You're the one making the decisions. It's your life and you're the only one that can decide what is the best solution for you.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[AFFI 0]

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I do agree with "speak to your instructor", but I don't agree with "don't give out advice here". That is wrong and makes no sense. It's everyone's responsibility to practice common sense and use their own mind.
It's your life and you're the only one that can decide what is the best solution for you.

In general, I agree - but when it comes to students I do not believe this applies.
When I am training a student in the particular method with the particular gear I am training them on and they get "advice" from another source (online, the packing room) then I must erase any information that may be counterproductive to the training being put forth in the system I am training in. There is only one place for a solo freefall student to receive advice, and that is in person, one on one between the student and their instructor. I believed this when I was an experienced jumper before I began training students and I believe it even more now.

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I may have learned entirely on my own how to do something which a jumper with 5000 jumps still is not proficient at.

Like what specifically?
It is mind numbing to consider the experience that someone with decades of current jumping and many thousands of jump has acquired.
It would be more accurate to say that someone with that amount of experience has forgotten many times over more about skydiving then a newbie with 100 jumps has even learned yet.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[kallend 1,621]

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I may have learned entirely on my own how to do something which a jumper with 5000 jumps still is not proficient at.

Like what specifically?

Not trying to answer for him, but there are lots of newbies who can sit-fly far better than I can - and better than some of my friends with thousands more jumps than I have. Just one example, there are others.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[docdialtone 0]

Even now, I learn from non-instructor qualified experienced fun jumpers at my DZ. They have the experience and time to help me out with my problems and questions.

The instructors at San Marcos are AWESOME but... they are also very very busy so trying to catch one of them, unless it's a simple yes or no question is almost impossible, even after the beer light is on they are usually tired and not wanting to talk about work and I can't say I blame them.

I failed my hop n pop twice with lots of advice from the instructors (ARCH,relax, look at the plane, straighten your legs, ARCH LOOK, REACH PULL) and then I read somewhere on here to make sure that you touch the back of your head to the top of your rig!!! WOW what a simple concept? It worked for me.

Bottom line for me is that I listen to a little bit of what I hear everywere and try to sift out what makes more sense to me and try to use it during a jump.

[CrazyL 0]

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For once0I completely agree with you

I like the cumulative approach. Ask many and form your own judgement. Like I heard a guy with 500 jumps telling a student about spotting using the 45 degree rule. Also I've been shown how to put on PD slinks and Aerodyne slinks incorrectly by two different instructors. I didnt jump either until I had read the instructions and corrected the slinks.

Are you saying instructors were giving rigging instruction on how to install soft links? If the instructors were not riggers then why would'nt they consult a rigger? Good going reading the instructions. Reading instructions and understanding the instructions, materials, and construction is what riggers do, it's part of the duties.

[d123 1]

Hehehe , This is going on like a bad movie that I once saw as a kid. For real!! It was a movie about plane pilots vs. geeky radar guys and the drama in between. Can't remember the name. It was bad. Ever wonder how do people keep finding funds for making bad movies. I swear it's happening every year.

Life is really strange. There's a lot to weight.

Does good piloting stands for good understanding of the phenomenon?
Can understanding the phenomenon help you land safely?
Should an instructor teach methods and make jump decisions based on obsolete and unrealistic models?
Designing a wing that could fly means understanding all there is about flying?
Should an instructor be responsible for the exceptions (cracks) of his teaching methods?
Should we change a "working" system because few people might die?
Is it worth few people dying because of lack of knowledge?

Accepting cracks in the system implies that life has no value.
Fixing the cracks might kill the sport. Hard to find instructors that are curios and second guess themselves.

Mykel: We just don't click. Thank you for the offers it was a nice gesture.
CrazyL: This post was not directed to you. Keep up the good work!

To anyone else: every post in any forum, every document or letter you write, every sentence you say represents a slice in time of your opinions. Time deforms everything.

Mods: this thread and the one in safety and training are worthless nothing will be changed and nothing will be learnt. Is like rotating the shit to see on which side smells worse.

Before I go to smoke a joint here is a good bye present: The wind.
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~aselle/fluid/
Download fluid.exe and play with it, If it open a few minds I'm happy.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[strop45 0]

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this thread and the one in safety and training are worthless nothing will be changed and nothing will be learnt. Is like rotating the shit to see on which side smells worse.

So who or what is forcing you to read or post here..I've learnt something from this thread and the other you refer to and will continue to read. Learning isn't about finding people who agree with you, its about finding new information, thinking about alternative points of view, and making your own mind up.

Blue skies.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[ROK 0]

The 45 degree rule is a good example. The first time I heard it I looked out the door and decided that it really didn't make good sense.

Instructors should always be the conduit you filter what you "think" through before actually acting when you're a student, but to close one self off to the ideas of thousands would be pretty limiting.

It comes down to each of us individually and our ability to take others ideas and break them down into useful information. Bad ideas, as well as good are a important learning tool.

Besides...there are so many advice police on here that one doesn't have to wait long to be told just how far one's head is up one's own ass.

I have learned a lot from postings on this forum. From the most idiotic, to the most intelligent.

[jerryzflies 0]

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The 45 degree rule is a good example. The first time I heard it I looked out the door and decided that it really didn't make good sense.

.

The very fact that it gained widespread acceptance and is still perpetuated suggests that not everyone is capable of figuring out for themselves that it is nonsense.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[DSE 3]

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A large number of the people who frequent this forum are morons, and it can be difficult for newer people to figure that out. .

"I'm a moron, this is my wife,
She's frosting a cake with a paper knife,
All that we've got here so nicely displayed,
it's a little bit cheesy, but American made....
DZ's got the Flakes!"

[morten 0]

I may be a slow reader, but nobody seems to discuss the merits of your instructors as opposed to somebody else's instructors.
The thing that make my instructors way better than other instructors is that they know me and my abilities.
So for me "Talk to your instructors" means "Remember to discuss this with somebody who knows your abilities"
This doesn't keep me from trying to get all the advice I can lay my ears on, especially on things that I think I know already.

btw: the 45 degree rule works well for me:
If the exit temperature is below 45 degrees F, I wear gloves

[VideoFly 0]

"I'm a moron, this is my wife,
She's frosting a cake with a paper knife,
All that we've got here so nicely displayed,
it's a little bit cheesy, but American made....
DZ's got the Flakes!"

DSE
Thanks for Frank's wisdom.

[denete 2]

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For instance, advice given on how to land.
Landing is one of the more difficult skills to become proficient at, and is often overlooked by many skydivers as one of the most important skills we learn.
There are many variables that can alter the outcome of landing safely from types of canopies being piloted, various conditions that nature can produce, long spots, landing off and hazards not to mention the various methods that can be incorporated in the teaching of this skill.

I do not believe that it is a lack of concern or a desire to teach, I for one most certainly love to teach but receiving input online can be counterproductive to the method being taught not to mention all the other aforementioned variables.

I'm not hijacking, I promise.

My instructors have taught me one method for landing. Probably the same method that most of the people here learned. "Hands all the way up, feet and knees together, twelve to fifteen feet off the ground pull toggles all the way down, chin to your chest, and prepare to PLF."

So, during the time between my FJC and my AFF one jump I studied all that I could find. I read the BPA's Canopy Handling Manual. That is where I first encountered the two-stage flare. Sure, I used the instructed landing method and PLF'd my first 6 landings. On 7 I did the two-stage and stood it up.

I learned a method to land safely from my instructors (PLF is all about survival and safety to me)...and I learned a method to get my A-license card signed off for Canopy Skills #2 online.

- David

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[AFFI 0]

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My instructors have taught me one method for landing. Probably the same method that most of the people here learned. "Hands all the way up, feet and knees together, twelve to fifteen feet off the ground pull toggles all the way down, chin to your chest, and prepare to PLF."

What type of canopy were you learning on?

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That is where I first encountered the two-stage flare. Sure, I used the instructed landing method and PLF'd my first 6 landings. On 7 I did the two-stage and stood it up.
I learned a method to land safely from my instructors (PLF is all about survival and safety to me)...and I learned a method to get my A-license card signed off for Canopy Skills #2 online.

Great point, but if there was no such thing as the internet you would have learned the two stage flare at your DZ.

We learn to crawl before we walk or run. First you learned the basic fundamental of making a stand up, more importantly how to do a PLF - good place to start...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[denete 2]

Now you're hijacking...

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My instructors have taught me one method for landing. Probably the same method that most of the people here learned. "Hands all the way up, feet and knees together, twelve to fifteen feet off the ground pull toggles all the way down, chin to your chest, and prepare to PLF."

What type of canopy were you learning on?

"The Battlestar Galactica" of canopies (HMS Navigator 260)...and a couple of jumps with a Manta 260.

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Great point, but if there was no such thing as the internet you would have learned the two stage flare at your DZ.

Eventually perhaps. But my experience is that I would have to ask about it before anyone offered it. Of course I videotaped about 60 landings including a full day of Scott Miller's Essential Skills Course landings, and studied the problems that were pointed out there. The information that I collected just reinforced what I had discovered about the two-stage.

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We learn to crawl before we walk or run. First you learned the basic fundamental of making a stand up, more importantly how to do a PLF - good place to start...

- David

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)