“Talk to your instructors”

[AFFI 0]

"Talk to your instructors" is a piece of advice that is often given and often misunderstood.

It may sometimes seem that this advice is given because someone does not want to take the time to give through advice or perhaps does not care enough about newcomers to the sport enough to give through explanations.

It may seem sometimes difficult to understand why it is important to get advice or guidance from an individual qualified to give it in person where performance can be seen directly, and why it may sometimes be counterproductive to share ones “experiences” concerning a subject that may put ideas into the mind of the person seeking guidance online.

For instance, advice given on how to land.
Landing is one of the more difficult skills to become proficient at, and is often overlooked by many skydivers as one of the most important skills we learn.
There are many variables that can alter the outcome of landing safely from types of canopies being piloted, various conditions that nature can produce, long spots, landing off and hazards not to mention the various methods that can be incorporated in the teaching of this skill.

I do not believe that it is a lack of concern or a desire to teach, I for one most certainly love to teach but receiving input online can be counterproductive to the method being taught not to mention all the other aforementioned variables.

It would be interesting to hear why others may give the advice:
“Talk to your instructors”…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[shermanator 3]

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It would be interesting to hear why others may give the advice:
“Talk to your instructors”…

well stated, and very good point. . I sometimes advise it, because I know that i am not qualified to answer the questions being asked, and I have learned from my role models that the instructers are the best people in those situations to talk to. Thanks AFFI, you are actually one of my role models, even though I have never met you, or even talked to you, I find your post enlightening and helpful to my own learning.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[sraja 0]

I think its more complicated than that - for instance, landing comprises of
1. You have a landable and properly functioning parachute over your head
2. Identifying your current location relative to the desired landing area and other skydivers under canopy or in freefall
3. Locating your pre-determined holding area or atleast calculating your landing pattern quickly
4. Identifying the current landing pattern if other canopies are below you or the wind direction if you are the first one down
5. Locating possible outs in the event you will not be able to make it back to the dropzone
6. Locating possible hazards in the chosen landing area and planning alternatives or plan b
7. Implementing your landing pattern and making your final approach
8. Finally slowing your canopy down to a soft landing

Now, I have written the above from my perspective - that is conservative landing. Swoopers, CRW jumpers will have more items to the above list. As a low time jumper I am always learning new things and / or encountering new things in the sport. For instance, I had my first off-DZ landing on my first jet jump. This was at jump #95. As soon as I was in the saddle I knew I wasnt going to make it back and began looking for outs. My coaching upto that point had been

1. Have a decision altitude - 2000' - look for outs if its clear you wont make it back
2. Identify outs - my option was corn field and more corn fields. My coaching had definitely covered the art of landing in corn and I had plenty of experience doing that

However, I noticed fellow jumpers squeezing into a narrow patch of grass between the road and corn fields. I evaluated it and noticed the power lines next to the road. I decided I would attempt to follow the fellow jumpers down but would error on landing closer to the corn than power lines. As I approached this patch, I noticed that it was a sloping patch as well. This is where a post by Bill Von on DZ.com kicked on. I had read that when landing on a sloping surface land across it rather than up or down - vola!! standup soft landing.

Not everything can be taught on DZ.com - and likewise not everything can be taught in your 25 jump course. Somethings are picked up through discussions with fellow jumpers on DZ.com or at the DZ etc. My point is, how different is the advise you offer on DZ.com to the advise you offer at the dropzone. If someone asked on these forums as to how to identify a landing pattern - the answer is simple - talk to your instructors!!! However if someone asked how can I stop my canopy from dragging me on a no-wind day or how can I improve my depth perception to time my flare - we can definitely give some suggestions.

Let me make it clear, I am not saying I am as qualified as you but I certainly can relate to that challenge the jumper is facing. Hope the above ramble makes some sense.

[Legs 0]

when we write our issues down on a forum it is sometimes not evident what our specific issue is.....such as "when to flare?" is my problem depth perception, flaring early, late, stalling the canopy ect

The only response can be "talk to your instructors" because they can see your landings and diagnose the issues you are having in person.

I believe this piece of advice to be one of the most sensible given on any forum.

With love in Christ

[Broke 0]

I think that the reason I say talk to your instructors is because they are actually there to see what you are doing.

If you are talking about landings if you can get somone to video your landings and either an experianced canopy pilot or instructor to help debrief can be very helpful.

Also I don't have a lot of practical application to go with the knowledge base that I have.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[DSE 3]

My reasoning behind it is multifold;

~instructor can see what they're doing, and respond accordingly.

~Sometimes, a student may disagree with an instructor based on reasons of what may appear to be intuitive, but may still be wrong. As a result, they come here looking for an argument that they can present or at least consider with regard to their instructor.

~Perhaps the specific DZ has unique landing situations, common winds, obstacles, or other exclusionary situations that can only be addressed by someone who is aware of the possibilities surrounding the "true" reason for the questioning.

~And sometimes I'm lazy and don't want to type the answer to a question that has been probably asked a hundred times. Remember, I used to ask really dumb questions, now I just ask the not-quite-as-dumb questions.

[sraja 0]

You make a good point. However, without blatantly generalizing it could be considered that sometimes people do come online and ask for pointers even after consulting with their instructors. Case in point - spinning on AFF level 4. Several students have a problem with spinning on their release dives and sometimes no matter how much their instructor tells them to relax or raise an arm or a leg (or whatever) it just so happens that it doesnt click. I was one such student (failed level 4 four times).

Someone on DZ.com mentioned that I should hit the tunnel - I did - and aced 6 levels the next weekend. Even now, I learn from non-instructor qualified experienced fun jumpers at my DZ. They have the experience and more importantly the time to help me out with my problems and questions.

DZ.com is a tool - it can be used to educate within its own limits. Just like sometimes people use a DVD to learn about free flying or whatever - like any other instructional medium DZ.com has its limitations. Nothing, I repeat nothing, is better than personal coaching and instruction but one could gather useful pointers here.

When a student (or anyone else for that matter) asks a question on these forums, we could evaluate the question for a moment before putting out the blanket - "ask your instructor" statement. If there is a possibility of sharing a personal experience or pointer that may prove to be useful (without being harmful) why not? If on the other hand, it is blatantly obvious that the question requires deeper attention than these forums can afford by all means make that blanket statement.

[Scoop 0]

I agree. I personally like to seek advice from a lot of people and gain a number of opinions then see what seems the most sensible route leaning towards those with the most experience. If its something technical or potentially dangerous then I will always seek advice from an instructor.

[Legs 0]

but you didn't just get in a tunnel....you saw an instructor...exactly the advice given.

but I understand that it is good to compare experiences with peers, but this cannot be compared to instruction.

With love in Christ

[Baksteen 84]

I've got 76 jumps.
There is a lot of stuff that I don't know I don't know, so maybe I'm putting an individual on a dangerous course when giving uninformed well meant advice.

So what i usually do is relate anecdotal stuff which worked for me on that single occasion in those specific circumstances, or just not react at all.
However I agree with Sraja that DZ.com is a tool to be used within it's context, and that a lot of useful advice is hidden among the debris.

But I'd like to add another standard response to the discussion, if I may.

[rant]
"Talk to your instructors" is always worth repeating/emphasising, for the reasons AFFI stated, However, sometimes you see people responding with "do a search, that question has been asked many times before."
What good does that answer do the person who asked the question?

How are you, being a Noob, going to be able to find the useful advice among the spam? Sort the sound advice from the possibly fatal advice? It's different when someone references a specific thread/post which answers the question, but just telling someone to do a search is a waste of bandwith, and more so than re-asking any question.
[/rant]

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

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I've got 76 jumps.
There is a lot of stuff that I don't know I don't know, so maybe I'm putting an individual on a dangerous course when giving uninformed, well meant advice.

And therin lies the basis for the reference back to instuctors...always good advice, IMHO.

A good point has already been made that sometimes a young jumper can get a good pointer that will eventually help. However, those pointers, and indeed ALL pointers, should be taken back to your instructors for validation and approval - they know you best.

Another good point for the reference back to your instructor is (note I use "techniques" in a very general sense):
Students are taught very basic techniques that will help save their butts until they gain some experience and skills. As you learn, those techniques will change, hopefully gradually, to more advanced techniques.

Who knows you and your skills best? Your instructors. Only those who know you and your skills can justifyably alter your techniques based on your current skill level.

Now, one of my fears for the young jumper is getting advice on a technique that he is not ready for and goes out and blindly tries it...with disastrous results. Hence, the reference.

Side note: "Advisors" have to consider the question being asked and "Questioners" have to consider the advice given. Things like "go to the tunnel" are not potentially dangerous. Things like "do front riser 180s" are. Sometimes it's best to not guess at the questioners' skill levels and simply say, "Talk to your Instructors."

One other point:
Instructors instruct differently from one to the next. I am reluctant to advise things that may conflict with your instructor's advice. Why? He knows you better than I and very possibly may have a different training plan for you than I would. I don't want you taking MY advice and using it as a point of argument with your instructor. It happens all the time:
Student: Well, so and so with 1000 jumps told me I should be doing XXX.
Instuctor: You still need some more work on YYY before you do that.
Student: Well, so and so said I should be doing it anyway because ZZZ.

Bad....very bad.

Hence, the reference.


In MY perfect little world, nobody would be allowed to teach a student anything except his/her instructors until A-license, and even then, the perfect student would still be asking instructors for clearance and approval on changing techniques before the attempts. But, I'm a conservative hard-ass, I guess.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Baksteen 84]

My reality and yours are pretty much the same

Thank you for explaining my post so well.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[millertime24 8]

Because my instructors have thousands of jumps. I have 6. Chances are they know far more than me. Instructor communication=(usually) Safe skydives. Also "anyone" online can "claim" to be an instructor. I know what your thinking...Its hard to fake a license number, but it isnt hard to copy one out of someones log book into your own profile. Point is you know who your instructors are you see them face to face and they usually provide quality input when it comes to your safety and the safety of others.

Muff #5048

[wmw999 2,116]

Your instructors are more likely to know what the question is that you should have asked, instead of the one that you actually did ask.

Sometimes there's a difference between the two, and the instructor who's familiar with the student is far more likely to understand the context.

On the other hand, no one knows the feelings of a student like another student, and there's no reason not to join the feelings/fears/rejoicing threads, or even to sympathize in the asking-for-advice threads.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,621]

What about instructors that still teach "The 45 degree rule"?

The primary means by which this "rule" was debunked was online discussion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jellob 0]

Being a student of a pretty hard-nosed instructor, I can appreciate both sides of this thread. I use these Forums for social reasons, but also have used them to ask questions (either for clarification or for more information). I get to my DZ two to three times a month and between my AFF jumps I always come up with questions or concerns. I was recently PMing someone about pilot chutes and stowed sliders and while we did go over it in ground school now that I see it all in action I have even more questions. My last jump was scrubbed due to weather, so I sent my questions along via PM. This is not to say that I will not also discuss them with my instructor, though.

Other former students of my AFFI will talk to me, but once he walks up, they will immediately stop talking. I asked about this once and was told that my AFFI gets upset when he hears other students or recent grads 'teaching.'

I like the Forums being a newbie because it allows me to see what other people are experiencing at different levels. They also allow me to ask questions and to take that information, hold onto it, and ask my instructor when I jump again. Ultimately, however, it is whatever my instructor says that I do.

[Butters 0]

Forum, a place to read ideas. Instructor, a person to learn ideas and ask about ideas read on the forum. I attempt to read multiple ideas about a subject from the forum before asking my instructor about the subject. If the advice of my instructor differs from the advice on the forum then I ask my instructor about the ideas from the forum. I believe it is better to know all the ideas, not just the good ideas.

PS: I am guilty of stating both good and bad ideas, I would rather have not stated the bad ideas, but I'm learning.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kallend 1,621]

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Forum, a place to read ideas. Instructor, a person to learn ideas and ask about ideas read on the forum. I attempt to read multiple ideas about a subject from the forum before asking my instructor about the subject. If the advice of my instructor differs from the advice on the forum then I ask my instructor about the ideas from the forum. I believe it is better to know all the ideas, not just the good ideas.

PS: I am guilty of stating both good and bad ideas, I would rather have not stated the bad ideas, but I'm learning.

The "45 degree rule" is not just a bad idea, it's dangerous, and according to many posts over the years, is still being taught by some instructors.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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Forum, a place to read ideas. Instructor, a person to learn ideas and ask about ideas read on the forum. I attempt to read multiple ideas about a subject from the forum before asking my instructor about the subject. If the advice of my instructor differs from the advice on the forum then I ask my instructor about the ideas from the forum. I believe it is better to know all the ideas, not just the good ideas.

PS: I am guilty of stating both good and bad ideas, I would rather have not stated the bad ideas, but I'm learning.

The "45 degree rule" is not just a bad idea, it's dangerous, and according to many posts over the years, is still being taught by some instructors.

Agreed. That is why I believe it is important for students to know many ideas (good and bad). So that they can question what their instructor is teaching them (because no one is perfect and new ideas are replacing old ideas all the time).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Fast 0]

When I was a coach, the students that I saw kinda had an idea what they were doing and sometimes had some idea of what they were doing wrong. Most of the time they needed me to explain to them what and why they were having the problem or show it to them on video.

Going through the AFF course and now being an AFFI (I have jumped with a huge total of 2 students) I see it even more clearly that they have no idea what the hell is going on. They make stuff up from one end of the skydive to the next. New skydivers in most cases don't have any idea what they are doing wrong or why they are having the problems that they are. How can that person take advice that they get from here on the forums and put it into action with any effectiveness. I don't think they can but even if they do it might just be the case that they are trying to fix the wrong problem.

The other thing is that, I don't like surprises. I don't want one of my students to come on here and get some advice about something to try on their repeat level 3 that causes them to get hurt or to not complete their TLOs. I don't want to have to be the one who says, "why the hell did you do that?" Only to find out someone suggested it on here.

That is why I suggest that a person speak with their instructor. I think this forum is great, I have learned a lot from on here. I just don't think people should be taking advice till they have enough experience to sift through the crap. Getting your A license doesn't automatically mean this, but at least it is a good starting point.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[AFFI 0]

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The "45 degree rule" is not just a bad idea, it's dangerous, and according to many posts over the years, is still being taught by some instructors.

So it is apparent that skydiving instructors do not have all the answers, it has been suggested many times before that as in any profession, there are some that are better able to teach and some more knowledgeable than others.

So we can assume that there are some issues that we can take to instructors and some that are best learned from other sources?
Question is how do we ascertain which is which?
How can a student determine of they have a capable instructor?

Perhaps instruction in skydiving is just a means to keep students alive and minimize the occurrence of injuries while they climb the learning curve?

Here is a link to a great discussion on the "45 degree rule":
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1971076#1971076

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Forum, a place to read ideas. Instructor, a person to learn ideas and ask about ideas read on the forum. I attempt to read multiple ideas about a subject from the forum before asking my instructor about the subject. If the advice of my instructor differs from the advice on the forum then I ask my instructor about the ideas from the forum. I believe it is better to know all the ideas, not just the good ideas.

PS: I am guilty of stating both good and bad ideas, I would rather have not stated the bad ideas, but I'm learning.

The "45 degree rule" is not just a bad idea, it's dangerous, and according to many posts over the years, is still being taught by some instructors.

A student should have 100% trust in his/her instructors. I think it is very important.

Everyone should make up his/her mind later on. A licensed skydiver should not remain on student level.

[billvon 2,381]

A smart woman once told me "all advice is bad." And there's some truth to that. Advice you take without thinking is bad, because you are replacing your own judgment with someone else's, and that's almost never a good thing.

However, advice that makes you think is in many ways the best kind. The best advice I got after a nasty breakup some years back was also the worst - "get back together with her." That made me think. Did I really want to do that? Why not? And if not, why was I so upset over it? After I thought about it for a while I realized that the conflict was entirely within me, and wasn't anyone else's fault. Helped me get over it.

Same thing here. Advice that makes you think is good advice, advice you take blindly is bad advice - and that's true no matter what your level.

This is true in person as well. When I talk to someone and tell them "the 45 degree rule is bad!" the two replies I hope I DON'T get are "OK, then I won't use it ever again" and "It works fine for me, and I'm not changing." I am actually more hoping for a reply along the lines of "well, if that doesn't work, what does? How do you know it doesn't work? Doesn't it work for Joe Famous Skydiver?" Because once I get that sort of reply, I know he's thinking for himself - and that's the goal.

That being said, the problem arises when a newer jumper (and especially a student) takes other people's advice as gospel. If they use good judgment, then it doesn't matter if they have one jump or 100 - they will likely put advice received here to good use. If they have poor judgment, they may well misuse that advice. Hence the incessant warnings to "listen to your instructors." Doesn't mean that their instructors are any better or worse than the advice given here, but it does allow one person to act as a 'surrogate' for the student's judgment. And until he's off student status, that's an important position to maintain.

[Ether 0]

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Not everything can be taught on DZ.com - and likewise not everything can be taught in your 25 jump course. Somethings are picked up through discussions with fellow jumpers on DZ.com or at the DZ etc.

I learned a lot of things very early on by reading DZ.com threads. I also read a lot of things that I didn't understand, so I asked my instructors about these things at first opportunity. I also learned a lot of things that I thought I did understand, but I didn't.. as soon as this happened the first time, I started describing to my instructors all the things I was reading about, to compare my understanding of them with the actual truth. I do feel it helped my learning curve a great deal, and my instructors started introducing more advanced topics to me as I demonstrated that I was capable of understanding them.

As for low-number jumpers offering advice -- I feel the best commentary I can offer is to provide anecdotes of things I tried that didn't work, or feedback on instruction that I misunderstood. It's easy for instructors or very experienced jumpers to assume that a n00b understands something in the same way they do, but without a frame of reference it's easy for misunderstandings to happen.

Edit to add: Another example: I learned that the advice that a 100-jump-wonder at the local dropzone was trying to give me was something I should be ignoring, or at least discussing with an instructor before following. If I hadn't known any better, I would have taken advice from all sources as being of equivalent quality.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[VideoFly 0]

Although I have a coach rating and have filmed hundreds of AFF students, when asked questions about skydiving by students, my answer is always "let’s go ask your instructor." The AFF program is well thought out and planned. Additionally, instructors are taught and practice special skills in education. Instructors also have intuition with vast experience in working with students that I simply do not have. Sometimes instructors purposely wait to teach certain objectives and skills. Therefore, there is no room for me to circumvent the instructional plan. If in fact, I feel that I want to advise students, I feel that it would be appropriate for me to work hard and seek another rating. Until then, I will leave the job of advising students to instructors.