What is a H&P to you?

[lippy 771]

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Some people on this thread talk about getting out at sub-2000' that's crazy. I still got out at a legal jumping alti.

-Michael

If the clouds are low then what else ya gonna do? I've had a handfull of sub-2K jumps. I've got no problem getting out at 1800' with my current gear, assuming that I packed it knowing that my next jump was going to be an 1800' exit. But I had a few hundred jumps before I ever got out of a plane below 2500.

I got nuthin

[Baksteen 84]

B*tch about the weather, and hope the clouds will break later in the day?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[hackish 8]

Just to make a few clarifications. I'd wave off at 5 do the best a student can to track away and pull around 4. The criticism was more that I wasted 5 more seconds of potential freefall time. We have a small DZ and yes everyone is made aware of my pull alti.

The fact of the matter is that I've found altitudes below 3000 are not comfortable for my experience level. If you've got 500-1000 jumps under your belt then fine.

-Michael

[rehmwa 2]

A lot of people are saying - exit, get stable, and pull.

One training point of a hop and pop (or clear and pull, same thing) is to demonstrate that a skydiver can exit stable enough to pull immediately. You don't "get" stable. You are stable on exit.

If a student fails to be stable on exit and has to dink around for a couple seconds or more before opening, then they need be fail that requirement and go do it again until they get it right. (The instructor needs to see that they are stable on exit and didn't just toss it out while unstable)

edit: One other poster noted they like to dive out and was commenting on if this counts. You can exit and pull in any orientation if stable. The relative wind is relative wind so orientation to the ground or the plane doesn't matter as long as one is falling belly first into the relative wind - the canopy will deploy correctly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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he fact of the matter is that I've found altitudes below 3000 are not comfortable for my experience level.

IMO - this is becoming more and more prevalent, and I find it disturbing. Find a static line student and they have no issues in this area. Do a few 3000 and 2500K H&Ps and you'll find confidence quickly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ladyhawke 0]

I agree the goal is to exit stable but I'd rather practice this from 5k and gain confidence then work my way lower.

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[rehmwa 2]

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I agree the goal is to exit stable but I'd rather practice this from 5k and gain confidence then work my way lower.

You bet, but all skydivers should be confident that they can present to the relative wind and be stable the "moment" they leave the airplane. That's the point of signing off on a H&P - instructors that sign off some student exiting at 5000 ft that wobbles and takes a good 10 seconds, is doing a disservice to that student. (3500 ft max, exit stable - immediately do a calm reach and throw - that's a pass. A calm and confident execution of that should take a couple seconds and that's enough to clear any airplane)

A skydiver that is told at 2500 ft by the pilot to "Get Out, Now" shouldn't hesitate or even worry a SINGLE BIT. For that matter, with a good reserve, they should be comfortable at MUCH lower than that. That means a clean exit and confidence in their ability to exit clean every time.

Exiting stable is just as important for being good at RW, freeflying, etc, --- as it is for clear and pulls needing it to be confident of exiting during an aircraft emergency.

Go get your confidence. 5k, to me, is hyper conservative for this exercise, but different strokes for today's skydivers (and some of today's higher performance canopies too) I guess. And if that's what you need to achieve the eventual goal, then more power to you.

All this is just my opinion. But, since I'm right nearly 50% of the time on stuff, then flip a coin and see if you agree.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airtwardo 6]

No coin needed...I definitely agree!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[peckerhead 0]

A "true" hop and pop is 1800-2000 feet.

I once had a cutaway on a hop and pop.

It turned out to be a hop and pop and chop and drop and pop.

No worries.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Quote

he fact of the matter is that I've found altitudes below 3000 are not comfortable for my experience level.

IMO - this is becoming more and more prevalent, and I find it disturbing. Find a static line student and they have no issues in this area. Do a few 3000 and 2500K H&Ps and you'll find confidence quickly.

He's a student - if a USPA one, he has a BSR that says he shouldn't be doing that (@2500).

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

---
The 5000ft exits won't demonstrate the ability to handle the stress, but does allow the practice in exiting and deploying quickly, plus gives them time to work on their canopy skills.

[hackish 8]

Rules differ according to country. I have earned my solo certificate. Here are the CSPA BSRs that apply.

2.5 The minimum altitudes (AGL) at which the main parachute must be activated are:
a. 1220 metres (4000’) for all Tandem jumps
b. 760 metres (2500’) for all Solo & A CoP holders
c. 670 metres (2200’) for all other CoP holders

In my case I did not feel that I had enough time to dive out and turn into the relative wind before pulling so I opted for a strut exit so I could pull immediately in a stable position which I did. I believe the AAD is set to fire at 1050' in a stable belly to earth configuration and I feel that a few more seconds would have been coming uncomfortably close to that limit. Even though I was flying a student rig it still takes a few hundred feet to fully inflate.

I would not blame training methods or say that I'm unable to exit in a stable configuration. Indeed I had to repeat a number of jumps in order to pass my solo certificate because of stability problems on the C&P levels.

The sum and short of it is that this jump was too low, was uncomfortable for me and therefore not that much fun. I wanted to know what was typical for a hop & pop because if the typical H&P is at 2500 then I'll wait for a load to the top.

-Michael

[kelpdiver 2]

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Rules differ according to country.
b. 760 metres (2500’) for all Solo & A CoP holders

The sum and short of it is that this jump was too low, was uncomfortable for me and therefore not that much fun. I wanted to know what was typical for a hop & pop because if the typical H&P is at 2500 then I'll wait for a load to the top.

Please do fill out your profile, the country does matter, as you point out here. In the US the min height is 500 higher then.

If the cloud cover is in, the typical height will be whatever the plane can manage and jumpers are willing to accept. When Elsinore is overcast, it seems like 2800ft is typical. Might be related to the height of the nearby mountains. Unfortunately, you won't know till one run goes, and there's no guarantee that the clouds will dip a bit lower on your run.

[jcecil 0]

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A "true" hop and pop is 1800-2000 feet.

I once had a cutaway on a hop and pop.

It turned out to be a hop and pop and chop and drop and pop.

No worries.

You too? I was fortunate enough to be raised on a static-line at a small reciprocating DZ, so I laugh a little at the children of turbine AFF when they mention the fear of getting out "low" (5000' and below). Anyway, a visiting recent AFF grad was amazed that the price list in manifest had a listing for 2000' ($9), and said they'd never seen anybody get out that low before, didn't think it was safe, blah blah blah. I was planning on just a H&P from 3 on the next load, so I told them I'd get out at 2000 instead to show them it wasn't really any different, aside from a little less available freefall time. So off we go in the plane, pilot lines up on jumprun, we get over the DZ right at 2000', and out I go. Take just a second to clear the plane, open the parachute, and BAM! . . . a nice slow speed malf that my best explanation is tension knots in the left A lines (slider passed down over it and was at risers, but the entire left side of the canopy would not fully inflate, and the left A lines looked tangled up. Had the exact same identical malfunction just 2 weeks prior to this on a terminal deployment, also resulting in a reserve ride. This prompted me to finally put new lines on the Sabre2. They only had about 800+ logged jumps on them at this point :-D,it behaves and flies much nicer now) It wasn't square, it was only partially steerable, and I wasn't planning on letting it lose its questionable stability 15' off the ground. I tried a few seconds to clear the tangle, shaking and pulling and un-tensioning said lines, sweet talking them, promising I'd call, kicking, all to no success. When after 5 or 10 seconds of this and no progress (it looked like it would clear itself at any time, what a tease!), I cutaway and deployed the reserve, had a fully landable canopy even with the malf and trying to clear it by about 1200'.

AFF grad does their jump, lands, walks over and says "If you'd got out at 3 or even 5, the same thing would've likely happened. I still don't plan on intentionally getting out real low, but I don't think I'd be afraid to anymore after watching you just now".

Edit for spelling

[shropshire 0]

> - Nope.

> - then you'd be wrong


Leave aircraft and deploy main as soon as clear... no need to mention altitude because it's not part of the definition.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[hackish 8]

It's too cold now but the guys were talking about a cross country jump they did last year where they popped at 11k and glided about 10km to the DZ. That sounds like a really really fun hop & pop to me.

-Michael

[shropshire 0]

As a paraglider pilot... I'd say "Pah!!!" to a 10k glide

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[slotperfect 7]

To me a hop and pop is deploying nearly immediately after exiting the aircraft: exit, relax, deploy. Anything beyond that is a "X-second delay." Altitude doesn't matter.

Arrive Safely

John

[lippy 771]

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It's too cold now but the guys were talking about a cross country jump they did last year where they popped at 11k and glided about 10km to the DZ. That sounds like a really really fun hop & pop to me.

-Michael

You'd need a lot of wind to cover 10KM, but it is a fun skydive for sure, no matter how far you're going. There's nothing like watching the sun go down while you're under canopy at 9K drinkin a 'soda pop'

I got nuthin

[billvon 2,396]

>"So, doesn't anybody do a four-way from 5K and turn points anymore?"

Well, yes. But then you get in trouble and people write songs about you.

[lippy 771]

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>"So, doesn't anybody do a four-way from 5K and turn points anymore?"

Well, yes. But then you get in trouble and people write songs about you.

Wasn't that fatefull jump from just a little lower?

I got nuthin

[tbrown 26]

What people call a hop & pop nowadays is just about anything from 6 grand or less.

Back at the dawn of time, when the static line progression was the ONLY way to go, a student would make their first freefall with a "clear & pull" from 3200 ft. The count was "arch, look (for a chest mounted ripcord handle), reach, pull". That was a hop & pop. If they did two or three clean hop & pops, they were allowed to make a 5 second delay, usually from the same 3200 ft. If a few of those went well, they'd go up to 3500 ft for the glorious 10 second delay. At that point you really KNEW you were getting somewhere.

So whatever anybody else thinks, I consider a hop & pop to be 5 seconds or less and usually on the hill. I've made them from as low as 2 grand and as high as 5 grand.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[billvon 2,396]

>Wasn't that fatefull jump from just a little lower?

A little. We purposely weren't looking too carefully.

[murps2000 86]

I don't recall your wonderful contribution to skydiving of a freefall program illustrating airspeeds, but still I know you're just the man to ask: Does a skydiver's airspeed decrease for a few seconds after exit before increasing to terminal? And the practically applied version of this question: Will your canopy likely open more softly 2-3 seconds out the door than right off the step? Assuming a belly exit, not freefly?

[billvon 2,396]

> Does a skydiver's airspeed decrease for a few seconds after exit before
>increasing to terminal?

From the numbers I have run:

If exit speed is less than terminal, and jump run is level, and the jumper does not track up or down - then his vector speed (airspeed basically) gradually increases to terminal.

If exit speed is greater than terminal, then he slows down a bit before speeding up to terminal.

>Will your canopy likely open more softly 2-3 seconds out the door
>than right off the step?

Yes. It is always better to get some separation from the aircraft before deploying due to the prop blast. However, if you give even a split second (say, half a second) you're at least 4-5 feet below the plane, and that's plenty to get out of the prop blast.

If you are exiting from a C-130 or DC-9, it's better to wait a few seconds to slow down a bit.

[murps2000 86]

...right off the step?***

Sorry that was a poor choice of words. I meant as soon as your clear of the aircraft, not deploying off the step. I wasn't really thinking prop blast. I was just curious as to whether the drag on a belly flying skydiver might slow them down a bit after exit before they accelerated downward appreciably, even at airspeeds slower than terminal, because it seemed like it did. But you've answered that. The jet, or a high speed pass, yes. king air, casa, maybe. twin otter, cessna, probably not.