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anyone ever parasail?

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Like with your skydiving rig?

This should work right? if you got drag on a boat should propel some lift with your with brakes set.. obviously the winds would have to be relatively low?

anyones have experience? thoughts?
you want me to do what???

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I saw a video at skydivingmovies.com of some people who opened their chutes and ran down a slope to get into the air.

I am guessing it would be bad though to put a regular chute under tow. I would think the shape and how the air moves through would need to be different for powered flight.

If you have a really fast boat You might get away with flying a wing suit from a tow rope. Then when you get high enough just let go of the rope and pop your chute.;) (that's a joke, but don't let Jeb C read this):D

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Lots of people have been hurt and even killed doing this. So far I know of at least 5 such events that have been posted on the forums. Go to a paragliding website and look up the term "lockout" and you'll see how dangerous this type of activity can be under even correctly configured gear.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Have you seen in those pictures how high is the angle of attack? That wing looks stalled. How does that powered parachute/para-glider works anyway? In a way it's like towing but with an engine&propeller in the back. Is there a way to control the angle of attack and the airspeed independently?
Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

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And, trying paraascend with "square" skydiving equipment is STILL deadly. At least two fatalities that I remember off hand and many injuries have resulted from static paraascending with a ram air tied off to a tree or vehicle. This doesn't include the dynamic injuries and fatailites trying to tow skydiving squares.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Good question ... and I dont know all of the answers but from what I've learnt...


Powered parachutes and paragliders work in the same was as a normal wing (and out skydive canopies), the shape, created in the fabric by the cut of the cloth and internal air pressure is your standard wing shape, so as air flows over the top surface faster that the bottom surface, it's pressure drops and lift is created.

I do know that when you tow a paraglider it sits behind the pilot as it climbs. I guess that it finds it's own state of equilibrean based upon airspeed (caused by the tow speed and dynamic prevailing wind)..... but you'd need a low speed arodynamics prof' to fully answer you questions (sorry).... It works tho':P


(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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<>

Yes it can be if done incorrectly.

Tieing a line off from your canopy to a tree is not normal parascending - it's an accident waiting to happen..... thro a Lock-Out situation - bad Karma this way lies!!

Proper Parascending and winched Paragliding if done correctly uses a line with a weak link, a proper line relese mechanism (3 ring circus works well for this!!), trained personnel and well developed codes of practise and procedures.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Maybe you can use the AB lines (front riser/speed bar) to control the angle of attack as you increase the air speed. Would that work?
Or maybe the wings for powered flights have a different rigger-angle-of-incidence and maybe a different profile as well.

Can you just grab any DHV1 wing from MacPara, for instance, and just fly it with an engine? If so my previous profile/angle-of-incidence theory falls down;)

I'm still intrigued by those things. Being able to cancel you landing because you feel so it's awesome power!!B|

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

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I use my speed bar to change the AOA of my glider a lot to increase my air speed between thermals (typically).... On extreme speedbar a high performance wing will be more susceptible to a full frontal collapse

I'm not sure if the towing folks would do the same, under power (after release, it's the same as flying mine).

Again these are great questions, that I'm not sure enough about to answer.. Try asking them at www.paraglidingForum.com clicky

Blues,

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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I have been towed up over 60 times on a paraglider, sometimes as high as 2000 feet to catch some thermals over a field, after cutting away from the tow.

A paraglider is not too much different than my current skydiving canopy, if anything, it is harder to fly because of the twitchy nature of a lightly loaded fabric, especially in turbulence.

I know I could tow my skydiving main as my canopy loves to kite better than my paraglider did, I can keep it overhead for minutes with just a small breeze. I have tried to kite other brand fully elliptical canopies, and found the kite-ability is definitely different for every canopy, some just hated to kite, some loved it.

The skydiving canopy would be very challenging because it flies so much faster, so, everything would have to happen real quick, including any recovery.

I would do it over water, launching from the beach, with say, 10 MPH breeze into the wind, because I don't like running faster than humans can run. :P The payout winch would be in a boat. The water would provide the necessary "crash mat" at the crucial period where the canopy wants to start to fly, but you are still too close to the ground to recover.

(BTW - this is a proven system as paragliders use this technique)

Now, this being said, I spent many hours and many days learning how to do this. I am not going to tell you the details as I feel a qualified instructor should. A skydiver attempting a tow without training, without proper tow equipment, and without the knowledge of how to keep the canopy flying (when to apply inputs to risers and toggles), would certainly run the risk of getting hurt real bad.

Think of a two out downplane. That is what you get with the tow system as the "second canopy" should you misconfigure the angle of flight.

The worst I have ever been hurt in aviation was on a paraglider tow launch that went real south real quick. Think a toggle whip into the ground landing.

In 2004 I posted on dz.com about another tow malfunction, including a picture of how the equipment failed, as it is an adaptation of the skydiving three rings. Note, with the three or four years of skydiving knowledge since I posted the paragliding story, I now know how to redesign the paragldier tow so the malfunction would be impossible:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1311922;search_string=tow;#1311922


Here is a sales propoganda for one company I know of that offers water training on a tow:

Quote

Towing is a method of launching a paraglider (or other unpowered hang glider, ultralight, etc) where the glider is pulled up through the air by a line. When the glider reaches altitude (somewhere between 200 and 3000 feet) the pilot releases the towline and glides away normally.

Why tow?
Towing has the advantage of eliminating the need for a slope to launch from. Altitudes from a few hundred feet to a few thousand feet above ground level (AGL) can be achieved in moderate, light or even no-wind conditions. It also allows the glider pilot to immediately take advantage of lift by circling (doing 360's) and drifting with the thermal, without the usual concern of flying behind launch and encountering rotor.

What We'll Learn:
In this clinic, we will cover terminology, the types of towing, all about the tow site and tow forces. We will talk about launching on tow, staying on line, the climbout, releasing from tow and possible complications. We'll also discuss emergency procedures including escaping lockout, release failures, landing with the line, line breaks and tension control failures.
You will learn a series of visual signs that work well, even if the radio fails.
At the end of the clinic, there will be an exam that, upon successful completion, awards the pilot with a tow pilot rating.




And here is a picture from a site of a tow:

http://www.flyaboveall.com/havasu82.htm


Here is some text about how to tow:

http://www.paragliding.org/book/el/9-4.htm

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Yes.....
up to a dozen different club members flew either a 5 cell stratostar or a 7 cell cloud, behind boats mostly. back in the late 70's...
A cessna club from the western NY area...
the squares were getting established in jumping and we had them,,, so might as well launch them..... and if the launch went well.. it worked out ok.. we stayed over water mostly, DID have a 3 ring release and were using boat Pilots,, who had some experience with towing water skiers and with awareness on the water...In some cases the boat captain owned it,, and was a jumper...
We were able to launch from a beach in some cases, when we were on one of the "finger lakes"... or as was the case when launching over lake Ontario.. One of the guys had a yard which .. was a nice lawn,, flat and soft, which ran toward the water and then dropped Off... literally 25 or 30 feet to the water surface, below... it was a perfect aircraft carrier type launch...
The boat was wellll out into the water. each side/chord, of the canopy was held by a pair of launchers the taller one, towards the nose of the canopy....The parasailor would hold some brakes an prepare to run , then throttle UP, everybody start moving,,,,, and generally the canopy would inflate and lift!!!! just about the time we'd run outta lawn!!!:oB|;)
It took a good sized boat with some people in it, to keep the back end from getting lifted up, by the canopy..... it was always edgy at best...
anyway i remember doing it 3 times myself, twice at one place and once at another..on that last flight....
I did get into a sliding sort of trajectory as the boat was making a turn,,,,, [:/] and could sense the horizon coming UP on me,,, B|
I tried to counter with toggle input... but it became real evident, real fast that i was gonna get wet...and so i tucked my knees up into my chest, layed back in the harness and spanked the water with the back side of my right thigh!!!i was wearing cut off jeans...
[:/].. people on shore later told me that they could SEE me hit the water,,, and then about 2 or 3 seconds later,,, they HEARD... the loudest slap.. you could imagine!!!! hahahaha
the boat had stopped. i was fine,, we always wore a ski vest under the rig, and insisted that all parasailors knew how to swim, and had already made a few conventional water jumps.....The next day the purple bruise was the size of a football!!!!!! hahahah

Unbelievably,,,,, we managed not have ANY serious problems or injuries
during those times of adventures!! despite some real good attempts!!!!! just the usual bumps and bruises, aches and pains...

maybe Luck, maybe decent plannng and rigging, maybe the right boat, maybe Luck :P

Only one other time did i personally witness:|
a jumper in a harness, :D
being tethered to a TRUCK!!!:o this huge 4 wheeler.....
(The plan was Not to drive the truck, but let it serve like a big anchor..:S[:/]
..i dunno..:P;) " I wasn't in Charge" B|..)
with maybe 150 feet of line.... [:/]
on a damn fine windy day :P;)B|;)
No jumping>:(:(
The rest of the usual cast of idiots then assisted in getting the canopy inflated,,, and then ( the poor bastard) Fred,,, was ON His Own B|[:/]
It started out ok... he could stay relatively square, could work toggles, and get some results.... but he started sliding left and right,, and kinda was conteracting everything that was happening with semi- wild toggle inputs....
man... it scared the hell outta me....

and poor "Fred" is up there going " get me down !!!!!..... Three or four of us got on the rope,, near the truck, and started moving towards the canopy,, puilling the tether towards the ground.... it took some work, but in 20 or 30 seconds we had him on the ground,, man he was shaking!!!! hahahaha..
They say "flying is the second greatest thing, Landing is the first"...for sure that guy was the poster boy for that saying...

it seems one or two others may have braved it, later on that day. but not me...

be careful

jmy:)

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If you try to "tow" a skydiving canopy, please get video.

Ask JC Colclasure about it, he may share a story about how unsafe he found it.



How big of a canopy? I could see anything sub 170/190 square feet to be a handful. When I think of JC, I think of a real small crossbraced swoop monster canopy, which would be, just as you described.

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THere is properly designed equipment for that sort of thing, why test fate?



Hey if someone want's to be a crash test dummy, let um go ahead, just make sure you get good video so you can sell it to real tv and the like if they fuck up, that way it's a win win for everyone and we have one less dumbass in the sky.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Like with your skydiving rig?

This should work right? if you got drag on a boat should propel some lift with your with brakes set.. obviously the winds would have to be relatively low?

anyones have experience? thoughts?




[B]THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS OFFERED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. ANYONE ATTEMPTING TO FOLLOW THIS ADVICE ASSUMES ALL RESPONSIBILITY/LIABILITY FOR HIS OR HER ACTIONS.[/B]


There are reasonably safe ways to do it, but there are no completely safe ways to do it. Parasailing with a square canopy is much more involved and dangerous than parasailing with a round canopy.

Don't use your sport canopy--You want a canopy with very light wing loading. I used to use a HALO canopy connected to an old, empty (no reserve) student rig.

If you're going to do parasail with a ram-air canopy, you MUST rig a cutaway system to the rope so that if you go into a downplane, or a "lockout," as someone else in this thread called it, the pilot can cutaway the tow rope and allow his or her wing to level out before landing.

Also, I don't advise allowing anyone who's not an experienced canopy pilot to fly your ram-air parasail. I used to let my friends and family fly mine--after subjecting them to about thirty minutes of instruction--until we had a couple of close calls.

A few people, like my cousin, got really good at it. She could fly it up to about 700', cut away the rope, and do a slow 360 on the way down. But I had a few people who basically just froze up or brain farted in the air. And I had trouble with people not taking the instruction seriously because they couldn't differentiate between the type of parasailing we were doing and the relatively safe parsailing offered at most beach resorts.

You need a boat driver who can gauge the line tension to determine if he needs to pull you faster or slower. If he's pulling you at the right speed, you should be able to use your breaks to ascend or descend. If he pulls you too slow, you'll drop into the water. If he pulls you too fast, you may lose control and go into a downplane/lockout. The boat driver should know to throttle all the way back if you get too far to one side or the other and start into a downplane. Taking the tension off the line will allow your wing to level out. Also, keep in mind that you're pretty much limited to going into the wind, so flights are usually one straight shot from the beach to wherever you decide to land. And make sure you use a rope that will float, or you'll snag something on the bottom of the lake after you cut away.

You should also be aware that landing in the water presents its own set of obstacles. It usually takes two grown men to pull a partially submerged canopy out of the water. I had small floats attached to some of the lines and a life jacket packed inside the reserve container, to make retrieval a little easier.

It can be fun, if you have the right setup, a good head on your shoulders, and a boat driver who knows what he's doing, but you have to be really smart about it. Be sure to wear a helmet (preferably a Protec, because the water doesn't hurt them and they float) and a life jacket.


[B]THE PRECEDING INFORMATION IS OFFERED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. ANYONE ATTEMPTING TO FOLLOW THIS ADVICE ASSUMES ALL RESPONSIBILITY/LIABILITY FOR HIS OR HER ACTIONS.[/B]
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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