emergency scenario

[justaflygirl 0]

say on a heavily loaded plane, somebody fainted from unseen medical problem and didnt immediately regain conciousness. What would most like be the chain of events to take place? I know this may seem to be a stupid question, but as I was pondering I came up with several different scenarios and possibilities of what may happen. One of my major questions is related to this; while I was coming thru AFF, I was taught that if I was going to ride the plane down, then my cypres should be turned off.... IF the plane was heavily loaded what would be quicker, a mass emergency exit (depending on altitude, of course) or everyone turnng their cypres off or is turning it off even necesary? I have miliion "what if's" pertained to this, so I hope to get some answers, as stupid as it may seem to some, I just like to be prepared for any situation on the jump plane.

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, you don't *have* to turn your cypres off when decending in a plane, infact on a lot of rigs that would be damned near impossible due to where the unit is. Nevermind it uses a lot of battery power to turn it off.

As long as the pilot knows about it, they can fly correctly to not pop your reserve.

Now, why were you told that as a student?

Do the student rigs have student cypres? If so, that's why, they pop higher with a much slower speed. That's another reason why a lot of DZs use "experienced" cypres in their student rigs.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[justaflygirl 0]

I dont know whyt I was told that as a student and cant recall which instructor told me, its just something that I recall really sticking out in my mind.

[speedy 0]

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That's another reason why a lot of DZs use "experienced" cypres in their student rigs.

Maybe such dropzones should put a bit of thought into why there are student cypres's out there. Even the new vigil has a student mode.

Cypres in student mode may pop the reserve higher than an expert cypres, or it may not. If the student is at terminal, it will fire at the same height as an expert.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[davelepka 4]

Here's the thing with the Cypres, if you never exit, the unit should not be prepared to fire.

What if the pilot pulls a wingover, and reaches a high decent rate, you say? That would be unlikey given that there are jumpers still on board, and one of them is passed out.

Lets say your Cypres for some reason thinks you are jumping, and is ready to fire. By the time you are low enough for your Cyress to fire, the pilot should have slown the decent rate considerably, and would be in the landing pattern (planes use a pattern too). I know or a fact that I burn though the last 800 ft. of my canopy ride in about 5 seconds, much quicker than the plane, and my Cypres hasn't fired so far.

[Ron 7]

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Here's the thing with the Cypres, if you never exit, the unit should not be prepared to fire.

It arms at 1500 feet. Below that it will not fire even if you jump...Above that it will.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

One reason to turn AADs of when decending with the aircraft is to prevent AAD fire in a situation where a reserve pilot chute could exit the aircraft (aircraft with no door). The pilot would be aware of AAD operation in desent and fly accordingly. IF he had to decent quickly then it is up to everyone in the aircraft to 'guard' the reserve PC of the jumper in front of him/her if there is not time/not posible to turn off the devices & this is VITAL where there is a risk of a PC going out of the harcraft or hitting the pilot/interferring with the aircraft controls.
Life is one big 'what if' and you can't train for them all (no one knows everything,those that are still learning are improving, those that have learned everything they can are dead, those that won't learn - well just DON'T jump with). Do what you think is best in the situation, do it quickly & hope it's works out right. It's all anyone can do.

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[Ron 7]

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I know this may seem to be a stupid question, but as I was pondering I came up with several different scenarios and possibilities of what may happen.

Not a stupid question...I'd rather you ask these questions than not.

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say on a heavily loaded plane, somebody fainted from unseen medical problem and didnt immediately regain conciousness. What would most like be the chain of events to take place?

1st...It's a MEDICAL EMERGENCY...Fuck the AAD's. If I have someone passed out, I want the plane down NOW so we can do something about it.

Whats more important; A person or a repack?

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I was taught that if I was going to ride the plane down, then my cypres should be turned off.... IF the plane was heavily loaded what would be quicker, a mass emergency exit (depending on altitude, of course) or everyone turnng their cypres off or is turning it off even necesary?

Turning off the AAD is not needed. Several pro models were tested in Mike Mullins KA....He will beat you to the ground. They didn't fire.

Now some of the student models *might* fire, and the Tandem models *might* fire.

However for a Student one to fire you have to be moving pretty fast below 1500 feet for them to fire...And the Tandem one it's like 1800 feet.

Most pilots I know that descend fast stop diving like hell around 2 grand AGL. Normal patter altitude is around 500-1000 feet AGL, and you need to get set up.

So the chances of an AAD fire is small, and most skilled pilots will know this.

So if someone passes out...Land the plane, don't waste time turning things off, or getting out...Just land.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Reginald 0]

Interesting question. Your question would best be answered by reading the cypress manual. http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf I know I was educated by reading it. Honestly, I did not read it until I got my own gear. However, I am constantly shocked by the amount of misinformation about the units propagated by even experienced skydivers. The manual is a must read for all skydivers, even ones that don’t have a AAD on their rig for they are in a plane with people that do have them!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"So if someone passes out...Land the plane, don't waste time turning things off, or getting out...Just land."

Absolutely

"Turning off the AAD is not needed."

I'm pretty sure Cypres will be okay, probably most other 'modern' AADs (vigil etc) will be as well. Maybe the confusion has arisen over older AADs like the FXC?
I'm sure I was told that the J/M would disarm the FXCs we used to use in te event of landing with the A/C, but this was 10 years ago.
Can anyone clear this up for me please?

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 7]

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I'm pretty sure Cypres will be okay, probably most other 'modern' AADs (vigil etc) will be as well. Maybe the confusion has arisen over older AADs like the FXC?
I'm sure I was told that the J/M would disarm the FXCs we used to use in te event of landing with the A/C, but this was 10 years ago.
Can anyone clear this up for me please?

Even the Sentinals and FXC's to my memory will not fire unless you are going at certain speeds.

Some really old AAD's did fire at any speed at any atitude and had to be turned off, but when I started 11 years ago I had never seen one in use.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

> say on a heavily loaded plane, somebody fainted from unseen medical
> problem and didnt immediately regain conciousness. What would most
> like be the chain of events to take place?

1. Ensure they have an airway and are breathing. If you are 100% sure that there was no trauma involved (i.e. they were sitting there fine and just fainted for no apparent reason) you can remove their helmet if they're wearing one to help ensure an airway.

2. Tell the pilot that you have to descend and land immediately due to a medical emergency.

3. If it's on a high altitude load, up the O2 flow and make sure they are getting good flow. Use either a cannula or a mask; this may require borrowing one from someone else.

4. Get people to move around so that the person can lie down. This may be tough in a packed or small plane. Support their head so it doesn't loll around (a problem if they have a rig on.) Loosen legstraps and chest strap.

5. Never mind turning off cypreses. If someone else wants to do that, great. If not, the worst that can happen is someone's cypres will fire, and that's not a safety issue if the door is closed.

I didn't mention some issues above that should be common sense (i.e. get the most medically experienced person on board to take care of the person, don't pile everyone in the back of the plane to make room.)

[freakflyer9999 1]

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"Turning off the AAD is not needed."

I'm pretty sure Cypres will be okay, probably most other 'modern' AADs (vigil etc) will be as well. Maybe the confusion has arisen over older AADs like the FXC?
I'm sure I was told that the J/M would disarm the FXCs we used to use in te event of landing with the A/C, but this was 10 years ago.
Can anyone clear this up for me please?

The old FXC's can fire as high as 2500'. I watched in amazement one day as a whole load of students got off of the Porter at Skydive Texas, with their reserve pilot chutes in their hands. The pilot and the jumpmaster didn't properly communicate prior to the airplane descending.

Old FXC's are easy to turn off though. The control was mounted externally and just required a turn of the knob to disarm.

[BIGUN 1,053]

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Nevermind it uses a lot of battery power to turn it off.

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There are a number of interesting rumors floating around theorizing that it takes less energy to just let CYPRES turn off by itself after 14 hours. Actually, it doesn't make that much difference.

What can affect battery life is leaving CYPRES turned on, putting the rig in your car, driving off, and taking CYPRES through a 50 ft. or so change in elevation. CYPRES can interpret this as a take off in a slow-climbing aircraft, and go into a higher power mode of operation. This will put an additional drain on the battery.

(Source - http://www.cypres-usa.com/cyp16.htm)

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tombuch 0]

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1. Ensure they have an airway and are breathing. If you are 100% sure that there was no trauma involved (i.e. they were sitting there fine and just fainted for no apparent reason) you can remove their helmet if they're wearing one to help ensure an airway.

2. Tell the pilot that you have to descend and land immediately due to a medical emergency.

3. If it's on a high altitude load, up the O2 flow and make sure they are getting good flow. Use either a cannula or a mask; this may require borrowing one from someone else.

4. Get people to move around so that the person can lie down. This may be tough in a packed or small plane. Support their head so it doesn't loll around (a problem if they have a rig on.) Loosen legstraps and chest strap.

5. Never mind turning off cypreses. If someone else wants to do that, great. If not, the worst that can happen is someone's cypres will fire, and that's not a safety issue if the door is closed.

I didn't mention some issues above that should be common sense (i.e. get the most medically experienced person on board to take care of the person, don't pile

Bill nailed most of my thoughts pretty well. I'd add a few things.

One of the possible causes may be a cardiac or stroke issue. Descending at max speed might not be the best bet. Consider where and when you will be able to get a trained and equipped medical response.

At my drop zone an emergency call is handled by the local rescue squad, and they have about a 10 minute response time. Landing any sooner than that won't get the jumper any specialized help. Another option may be to divert to a better equipped airport. At my drop zone, we can get to Dutchess County Airport and have an on site CFR with an AED in the same time it would take to get the local volunteers to the DZ. We would also have an ALS unit close by for transport, probably as fast as the volunteer BLS group. On top of that, definitive hospital care is only about a five minute drive, rather than a 20 minute drive from the drop zone. So, if I was on the plane I would ask for a divert to Dutchess, declare an emergency, and request an ALS response.

As for descent speed, my objective would be to get to a lower altitude quickly, but without over stressing the patient. A rapid descent will improve ambient oxygen levels, but won't get definitive care any faster. So, I would ask for about 8,000 MSL as a quick descent, then a reduced descent rate en route to the alternate.

Every DZ is different, and every case is different. If you have a good emergency response program with oxygen on the field, a rapid descent to the DZ might be the best thing to do. If you are at a rural DZ without a trained responder, a diversion might be best. It's an interesting topic to consider and discuss with the skydiving staff and flight crews.

We actually had such a problem on jump run with a student this summer. The JM called down, landed as normal, and was met by a DZ representative for evaluation. The local rescue squad wasn't even called. The student turned out to be fine after a few minutes on the ground. Of course if it was a cardiac issue, the outcome wouldn't have been so great. My preference would have been a more aggressive response as listed above.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[flyangel2 2]

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There are a number of interesting rumors floating around theorizing that it takes less energy to just let CYPRES turn off by itself after 14 hours. Actually, it doesn't make that much difference.

Oh Keith, thank you so much for pointing that out. I've been saying that for some time now. I'll be sure to keep that link handy.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[sundevil777 93]

The straight poop on cypres power consumption:

http://www.pcprg.com/cyprespc.htm

So, consider that the unit uses about/at most around 100 times less power at 'rest' compared to when the LED is on/calibrating. Turning off the unit takes, say 10 seconds or so. So if the unit were on for 100*10=1000 seconds or about 16 minutes, then you are better to turn it off. Even with the assumptions that I haven't listed, or even if it is 1000 times less power, then it would be about 2.5 hours for the break even point. So I think it is fairly safe to make the obvious conclusion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[BIGUN 1,053]

Hi Mar,

You're more than welcome. Sorry we haven't been able to jump topgether this year. It's been an interesting year. Next Year though, definately.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[riggerrob 558]

I watched in amazement one day as a whole load of students got off of the Porter at Skydive Texas, with their reserve pilot chutes in their hands. The pilot and the jumpmaster didn't properly communicate prior to the airplane descending.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why did they need to communicate?

Any decent jump pilot should have learned about AADs when he first started flying jumpers.
Any jump pilot should know to reduce his rate of descent below 2500 feet to reduce the risk of AADs firing in the cabin.
Besides, descending rapidly below 1,000 feet means that he is descending rapidly in the traffic pattern, a recipe for collisions with other airplanes already in the pattern. Polite pilots slow down and fly boring, predictable patterns.
The minute or two you might save during a panic descent will create far more problems than it solves. Besides, if - as another poster mentioned - it takes EMTs 5 minutes to reach the airport, what is the advantage to a panic descent?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Old FXC's are easy to turn off though. The control was mounted externally and just required a turn of the knob to disarm."

Yes, those were the ones I was referring to, in fact, the page here
http://www.pia.com/fxc/2B1M12000.htm
recommends switching them off if the jump is aborted.

For what its worth, I've one misfire with these units at about 11,500, which put me under a round reserve.

I was lucky, winds were non existent and I hit the peas.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[upndownshop 0]

I watched in amazement one day as a whole load of students got off of the Porter at Skydive Texas, with their reserve pilot chutes in their hands. The pilot and the jumpmaster didn't properly communicate prior to the airplane descending.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
All of those are true except the part of communication. The Instructor (a CFI himself) tried to slow the pilot down, but no luck.
I wont post it here but what happened after on the ground is why the instructor never returned to that DZ again.
Not that it makes any difference to this thread just had to defend my father (the instructor).
I'll PM you.

Great topic for discussion, good question.

[bob.dino 0]

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By the time you are low enough for your Cyress to fire, the pilot should have slown the decent rate considerably

Ever seen a skyvan land? They do not glide well, so the pilot pretty much dive-bombs the runway to ensure that if there's an engine-out, there's enough airspeed to land safely.

I've known a student Cypres to fire on a Skyvan emergency landing. All the experienced skydivers got out, and the JMs stayed with the AFF student.

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah but a cypres fire in an empty skyvan with the door closed isn't exactly an emergency. There's enough room back there to repack the reserve after landing.

Dave

[davelepka 4]

***I've known a student Cypres to fire on a Skyvan emergency landing. All the experienced skydivers got out, and the JMs stayed with the AFF student
==================================

That sounds fishy. So there was enough of a problem that they evacuated the jumpers, then proceeded to wing over the crippled Skyvan, with student and JM's on board, to a sufficent decent rate to acitvate the Cypres? I would check your facts.

Furthermore, if there was an engine out, the plane coule AT LEAST maintain altutude, if not continue to climb (at a dimal rate). Any excessive diving in the pattern or near the airport is at the pilots discretion, not an operation requirement.

Any Skyvan pilots out ther with the single engine performace numbers handy? Or landing SOP's?

[btucker 0]

I think I was on a that load or a similar one! A battery boiled over and there was a heavy burning smell + some smoke. There was also battery acid blowing back in through the tailgate – enough to ruin several jumpsuits. I don't think many people wanted to hang about. Exit was about 5000AGL (with ac in step dive) over rough terian - rear riser 101. Most landed [just] off the DZ. Student and JMs landed in the van.

I think the student rigs have mechanical FFC AAD on the main and student CYPRES on reserve. The rumor was that both fired. I've noticed that FFC regularly if not always fire on decents.

On several occasions I've seen an empty* skyvan land with one engine and the landing was [more] conservative, rather than the "stukah" approach one sees at boogies. I've also seen an empty* skyvan on one engine do a go around on a short strip with no problem at all (pilot earns pay).

Out in cyberland there is site (by a dzcomer) where he mentions that skyvan @ max weight has marginal performance on one engine (model of engine ??) . Loss of engine during take off with full load and a heap of fuel on a hot day = pilot really earn pay!


* > 0 pilots where on board!


Blues Benno

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I've known a student Cypres to fire on a Skyvan emergency landing. All the experienced skydivers got out, and the JMs stayed with the AFF student

==================================

That sounds fishy. So there was enough of a problem that they evacuated the jumpers, then proceeded to wing over the crippled Skyvan, with student and JM's on board, to a sufficent decent rate to acitvate the Cypres? I would check your facts.

Furthermore, if there was an engine out, the plane coule AT LEAST maintain altutude, if not continue to climb (at a dimal rate). Any excessive diving in the pattern or near the airport is at the pilots discretion, not an operation requirement.

Any Skyvan pilots out ther with the single engine performace numbers handy? Or landing SOP's?