Should minimum recommendations apply to you?

[AggieDave 6]

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(addendum) I have seen this pop up elsewhere too... when riding a motorcycle really fast, when wearing a backpack tugging at my shoulders, with the wind roaring in my face, especially when coming home from the dropzone, sometimes I get a really strong urge to stand up, throw my arms wide, arch arch arch... (and go splat...)

Back when I was still in school I found that I would many times check my PC's handle that was non-exsistant on my backpack. Or get a dredful feeling for not feeling my leg straps and chest strap.

On the flip side I've felt that motorcycles have helped me with swooping. Not as much as some people who ride seem to think it helps them, but I feel like it helps me slow things down in my mind during the turn, dive and plane out.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[KEVINLOVE 0]

I think skybitch is pretty smart too!

I'd jump her anytime... oh.... I mean jump with her

he he

K

[marks2065 0]

the bottom line is that if minumums would have been followed and this wasn't a health issue and was a ws issue race would still be alive - i firmly believe that all students and newer jumpers need to be slowed just like i was when i started jumping - not discouraged slowed and these minumums help with that - i never understood most of the resons nor did i like them but slowing me down was needed and apreciated - kept me alive

[DSE 3]

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the bottom line is that if minumums would have been followed and this wasn't a health issue and was a ws issue race would still be alive - i firmly believe that all students and newer jumpers need to be slowed just like i was when i started jumping - not discouraged slowed and these minumums help with that - i never understood most of the resons nor did i like them but slowing me down was needed and apreciated - kept me alive

While I agree with minimums, and have followed them throughout my time in skydiving, I don't feel it's accurate that adhering to minimums keep people alive, or not adhering to minimums cause people to die. Several WS pilots have died in non-health issue skydives, all of whom had more than 1000 jumps. Things happen, skydives are always a risk; minimums merely help minimize a portion of the risk via greater experience, IMO.

[diablopilot 2]

Several?


I know of 4 SKYDIVING wingsuit fatalities.

One was rigging related, i.e. the jumper sewes part of his main to his container.

One was a friend who had the jumps, had a failure of a part of his gear and for whatever reason was not or did not complete any other emergency procedures.

2 were jumpers with too few jumps, one of which barrel rolled through his lines on deployment, and then there is Race.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mbondvegas 0]

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Several?

2 were jumpers with too few jumps, one of which barrel rolled through his lines on deployment, and then there is Race.

When was this barrel roll incident? Got a link to info/discussion on it? Thanks.


Hmm...only 8 more wingsuit jumps until I'm in the clear.

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I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[DSE 3]

Five" is "several" in my vocab (There are five WS-related deaths in the fatality database), not including the Race Price nor Patrick d'Gayardon incidents.
In my mind though, I probably have lumped Jimmy Hall and Stevo Anderton in there as well.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Hmm...only 8 more wingsuit jumps until I'm in the clear.

Nice!You're special, this thread does not apply to you.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[mbondvegas 0]

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Hmm...only 8 more wingsuit jumps until I'm in the clear.

Nice!You're special, this thread does not apply to you.

You're special, sarcasm apparently does not apply to frenchy's.

I mean...isn't it great! I only have to pull off 8 more flights in the dangerzone...and then I will have ....angels singing>200 jumps /angels singing>...and be capable to safely fly a wingsuit.

Ain't that rad!!

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I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[diablopilot 2]

I think he's probably getting your sarcsam and hoping you could maybe keep your mouth shut about it since you set a pretty poor example for other low time jumpers that those of us who have spent more than tem minutes in the sport have to teach, council, coach, and attemp to guide safely through this sport.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NWFlyer 2]

Or we could just phone the front desk and complain. Looks like he missed his wake up call.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Millstone 4]

It seems everyone will agree reasonably set minimum requirements are a useful tool in guiding people through the sport. However, is 500 jumps a reasonable requirement to fly a wingsuit? Reasonable people may disagree.
Afterall, it's just a jumpsuit. At any point it is an easy matter to release the wings and return to a normal skydive. Ball up, release the wings if you want to, and deploy. While it deosn't hurt to set a very high standard I think very few skydivers actually need 500 jumps to grasp the basics of wingsuit flight. Those who do must be having a lot of trouble learning to skydive and maybe should NEVER fly a wingsuit.
Wingsuits are new and it makes sense for manufacturers to proceed cautiously in their reccomendations. Especially when a large number of very experienced skydivers are very scared and uneducated about the complexity or lack thereof in flying one. There is no reason why anyone with thousands of jumps should be scared to jump a wingsuit but many are. The result is these people strongly urge new jumpers not do it, and cloak their advice as coming from someone with experience.
It is clear that manufacturerers and instructors recognize this. This is why the 200 jump in a year reccomendation is put forth. In this way, it gives instructors an avenue for teaching those who do not have 500 jumps, but who we know are perfectly able and competent to jump one.
It's my belief, that the majority of skydivers who wish to jump a wingsuit, will be ready to do it safely way before 500 jumps. In terms of athletes, while I agree their is no direct corssover in skills, I do not think I have ever seen a world class athlete start skydiving who was not far ahead of his student counterparts. That is, in my experience, good athletes are ALWAYS better students.
All that being said, I will follow the requirements in teaching students. There are far too many people in this sport who would rather play the blame game than actually have to think and evaluate for themselves. My 2 cents.

[dragon2 0]

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However, is 500 jumps a reasonable requirement to fly a wingsuit? Reasonable people may disagree.
Afterall, it's just a jumpsuit. At any point it is an easy matter to release the wings and return to a normal skydive. Ball up, release the wings if you want to, and deploy.

WTF?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Millstone 4]

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However, is 500 jumps a reasonable requirement to fly a wingsuit? Reasonable people may disagree.
Afterall, it's just a jumpsuit. At any point it is an easy matter to release the wings and return to a normal skydive. Ball up, release the wings if you want to, and deploy.

WTF?

For those who do not understand, I was referring to being in a flat spin. i.e. one of the worst case scenarios of wingsuit flight.

[mbondvegas 0]

So is there any info/discussions/etc on this fatality you mentioned where the WS-Pilot did a barrel-roll through his lines on opening? I would like to read more about this.

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"Being a bad example since 1976!"

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I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[diablopilot 2]

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"Being a bad example since 1976!"

That's funny!
I ain't mad at ya, and I ain't trying to be a jerk.....I'll see what I can look up on that fatailty for ya.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,380]

>I don't feel it's accurate that adhering to minimums keep people alive,
>or not adhering to minimums cause people to die.

Well, adhering to minimums would have prevented the Utah fatality. In many specific cases adhering to minimums prevents incidents (or would have, had they been followed.)

No rule/guideline/suggestion is perfect. Heck, you can tell someone that smoking is dangerous, and watch the smoking couple live to be 80 and their non-smoking son die of lung cancer at age 50. I've seen that happen.

But a lot of guidelines are based in valid statistics. In _general_ if you smoke you are more likely to die early. In _general_ if you wingsuit before you have 200 jumps you are more likely to be injured or killed. Does that mean everyone who wingsuits at jump 199 is going to die, and everyone who does it one jump later is going to be fine? Not at all - but on _average_ you're more likely to survive with the additional experience.

>Things happen, skydives are always a risk; minimums merely
>help minimize a portion of the risk via greater experience, IMO.

And that's all any guideline can really do.

[DSE 3]

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Well, adhering to minimums would have prevented the Utah fatality. In many specific cases adhering to minimums prevents incidents (or would have, had they been followed.)

Obviously, this is true, my intent was that some posters suggest not adhering to minimums is a guarantee of failure at some point, whereas people that have adhered to the minimums have failed anyway.
As mentioned previously, I do believe in minimums, and have followed them as a personal behavior, but there will always be the guys like MBondVegas flaunts his 50 WS skydives before he's hit 200, and others will mistakenly think that the minimums don't apply to them. It seems many skydivers don't realize the minimums and BSRs are written in blood.

[billvon 2,380]

>Afterall, it's just a jumpsuit.

And a tandem is just another skydive. And a BASE jump is just a hop and pop. And AFF is just a three-way.

People who teach wingsuit flight, do tandems and AFF, and do BASE jumps know that the above statements are nonsense, and indeed such attitudes get people killed with depressing regularity. However, for someone with no knowledge of tandem, such a statement might make sense - and might lead tandem masters and potential lurkers to make very foolish decisions.

>While it deosn't hurt to set a very high standard I think very few
>skydivers actually need 500 jumps to grasp the basics of wingsuit flight.
>Those who do must be having a lot of trouble learning to skydive and
>maybe should NEVER fly a wingsuit.

This is a load of crap. Sorry, no other way to put that. The experience that your average skydiver gets in terms of judging altitude, tracking, and deploying in a stable body position are the very skills that allow someone with 500 jumps to attempt a wingsuit jump with minimal instruction. Abandoning all skill and experience requirements because someone "has mad skillz" causes incidents like the one we saw in Utah.

>There are far too many people in this sport who would rather play the
>blame game than actually have to think and evaluate for themselves.

And I think there are far too many jumpers who prefer to disregard the lessons others have paid for with their blood to be "extreme" and "cutting edge." It's tempting for a jumper to think that he is exceptional, and that the rules, recommendations and guidelines that others have created don't apply to them due to their superior skills. We read about them in the Incidents forum all the time.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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However, is 500 jumps a reasonable requirement to fly a wingsuit? Reasonable people may disagree.
Afterall, it's just a jumpsuit. At any point it is an easy matter to release the wings and return to a normal skydive. Ball up, release the wings if you want to, and deploy.

WTF?

AFAIK he is not a wing suit instructor.

I should be a very lame WS flier who cant even have the legendary flat spin. I have tried really hard, can it be about the suit?

[andm31 0]

To answer the question: Yes I think minimums should apply to me and reasonably to all others to, mostly because I jump with them and don't want some idiot crashing into me because he decided that wing suits are cool way before he knew how to handle them!

As a newbie (which I am and will be for a long time and maybe even forever, you know the more I learn the less I know I know thing) I feel that minimums are there to protect us from doing stupid things, I do stupid things sometimes, I make mistakes even though I really try not to... and so do all of you others too.

I wish I had the experience to know in which circumstances not to jump but that won't always be true... I ask my fellow skydivers to check my gear before I go on a jump, not because I feel uncomfortable with the way I checked it but because I just figure four eyes are better than two! (I'm going to try my best not to kick that habit).

In the end I'm only human, I can get stressed out, I make mistakes... even though some of the minimums over here in Sweden are a bit odd... why do you need 200 jumps to jump off a hot air balloon? I don't know but I guess it's set to that number of jumps for a reason other than just to piss off jumpers! I trust the people with more know-how to make better decisions than I'm able to.

With that said I went to another dz than my home one, talked to a danish instructor that was visiting the same dz, he had a bit over 400 jumps and seemed to be a nice guy... later that day he got grounded for landing downwind twice in a row... I saw the second one, he just barely avoided slamming into the hangar... scarry.

My point is that even people how seem to be experienced aren't always that, I mean you could be experienced at doing stupid things too. And even the guys with thousands of jumps have bad days right! So conservatively set minimums I feel is the way to go.

(but I do recognise the fact that reality is much more complexed)

Blue skies!

Anders Samuelsson
www.anderssamuelsson.se

[phoenixlpr 0]

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To answer the question: Yes I think minimums should apply to me and reasonably to all others to, mostly because I jump with them and don't want some idiot crashing into me because he decided that wing suits are cool way before he knew how to handle them!

As a newbie (which I am and will be for a long time and maybe even forever, you know the more I learn the less I know I know thing) I feel that minimums are there to protect us from doing stupid things, I do stupid things sometimes, I make mistakes even though I really try not to... and so do all of you others too.

I wish I had the experience to know in which circumstances not to jump but that won't always be true... I ask my fellow skydivers to check my gear before I go on a jump, not because I feel uncomfortable with the way I checked it but because I just figure four eyes are better than two! (I'm going to try my best not to kick that habit).

In the end I'm only human, I can get stressed out, I make mistakes... even though some of the minimums over here in Sweden are a bit odd... why do you need 200 jumps to jump off a hot air balloon? I don't know but I guess it's set to that number of jumps for a reason other than just to piss off jumpers! I trust the people with more know-how to make better decisions than I'm able to.

With that said I went to another dz than my home one, talked to a danish instructor that was visiting the same dz, he had a bit over 400 jumps and seemed to be a nice guy... later that day he got grounded for landing downwind twice in a row... I saw the second one, he just barely avoided slamming into the hangar... scarry.

My point is that even people how seem to be experienced aren't always that, I mean you could be experienced at doing stupid things too. And even the guys with thousands of jumps have bad days right! So conservatively set minimums I feel is the way to go.

(but I do recognise the fact that reality is much more complexed)

Answer what question? You did not answered mine.

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As a newbie (which I am and will be for a long time and maybe even forever, you know the more I learn the less I know I know thing) I feel that minimums are there to protect us from doing stupid things, I do stupid things sometimes, I make mistakes even though I really try not to... and so do all of you others too.

I believe a competent instructor may grant extra rights if he/she feel so.

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... later that day he got grounded for landing downwind twice in a row...

Landing downwind is not necerely a crime.

[Millstone 4]

"This is a load of crap. Sorry, no other way to put that." Ok, I am not offended, but it begs the question, how many wingsuit jumps do I need before I am allowed to have an opinion? 500? 1000? Debating what the min should be is a far cry from "Abandoning all skill and experience requirements", I never suggested that, so why do you stifle healthy discussion with such hyperbole?
"And a tandem is just another skydive." Certainly a tandem is a more complicated skydive, with serious responsibility and consequences. But, since you like your cookie cutter quotes, are you also one of those who say "every tandem passenger is trying to kill you". Because I would call that irresponsible. Such attitudes are self fulfilling and create a dangerous environment. But that's just one opinion. Do I have enough tandems to be allowed an opinion? You're the moderator of a DISCUSSION board, you tell me.

[Tonto 1]

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even though some of the minimums over here in Sweden are a bit odd... why do you need 200 jumps to jump off a hot air balloon?

The fact that you can't see the reason for this is part of the reason it's there. In South Africa, you need a PRO rating to jump a balloon... because...

You can't steer a balloon.

So when you get out at 6000ft (or whatever) and you're over a forrest, or a mountain, or a village, or a freeway etc.. you have the skill to deal with those situations. Your alti is set to where you took off, not where you are. If you can't judge the difference, you're in a bit of trouble.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[andm31 0]

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even though some of the minimums over here in Sweden are a bit odd... why do you need 200 jumps to jump off a hot air balloon?

The fact that you can't see the reason for this is part of the reason it's there. In South Africa, you need a PRO rating to jump a balloon... because...

You can't steer a balloon.

So when you get out at 6000ft (or whatever) and you're over a forrest, or a mountain, or a village, or a freeway etc.. you have the skill to deal with those situations. Your alti is set to where you took off, not where you are. If you can't judge the difference, you're in a bit of trouble.

t

Ah, good i do understand it now! But I just want to clarify that I did not in anyway doubt that there is a good reason for it being that way, my point was that as a newbie I don't know the reason behind the rule. :)

Blue skies!

Anders Samuelsson
www.anderssamuelsson.se