The FAA grounded a skydive O2 system today

[diverdriver 5]

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>Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC):

Those are numbers for aircrews seated at their stations - not a bigway base trying to muscle a chunk out. I have seen a few cases of floaters who have to float for only 90-120 seconds at 18,000 MSL become impaired.

I've been one of those floaters. Fortunately for me I am in good fit condition and had built up a tollerance flying jumpers unpressurized so much to 14,000. Others might have a more difficult time. However, for someone to just throw out TUC as 30 seconds at 17k with nothing backing up is well...not right either. So instead of 20 minutes at 18k it's 30 seconds? I doubt it's that dramatic unless the person is in less than well health. Remember it's not feeling the effects of hypoxia but useful contiousness we're talking about.

What type of impairment did those floaters you mentioned suffer from? What happened?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[billvon 2,393]

>What type of impairment did those floaters you mentioned suffer from? What happened?

For me it was loss of color vision followed by tunnel vision and great difficulty remembering the dive. Other people reported "feeling dizzy." One had a memory gap. Which is why I now take my own bailout O2 system with me on such jumps, so an early climbout doesn't adversely affect me.

[quade 3]

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What type of impairment did those floaters you mentioned suffer from? What happened?

I recall a National Geographic special about Tom Sanders where he recounted a story of being on a big-way and passing out during the jam up, then waking up in freefall.

My guess is that wasn't the first time that ever happened to a skydiver.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

>Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC):

Those are numbers for aircrews seated at their stations - not a bigway base trying to muscle a chunk out. I have seen a few cases of floaters who have to float for only 90-120 seconds at 18,000 MSL become impaired.

I've been one of those floaters. Fortunately for me I am in good fit condition and had built up a tollerance flying jumpers unpressurized so much to 14,000. Others might have a more difficult time. However, for someone to just throw out TUC as 30 seconds at 17k with nothing backing up is well...not right either. So instead of 20 minutes at 18k it's 30 seconds? I doubt it's that dramatic unless the person is in less than well health. Remember it's not feeling the effects of hypoxia but useful contiousness we're talking about.

What type of impairment did those floaters you mentioned suffer from? What happened?

When we got the climb out call instead of the 2 minute warning, I fell off after 1m15sec hanging on at front float at 18k. It didn't help that the pilot had to throttle up on account of the extra drag of the floaters. The buggers inside didn't have the sense to pull the floaters in.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tombuch 0]

Think about it from the perspective of the FAA.

They have an interest in assuring passengers that when oxygen is needed, it will be delivered. And they need to assure that poorly designed, installed, or operated systems won’t cause the aircraft to catch fire or explode.

I’m not familiar with the system being discussed in this specific case, but a typical skydiving oxygen installation is a mess, with hoses scattered and duct taped everyplace, and oxygen cylinders strapped in a variety of odd places. From an FAA inspectors perspective, that’s a recipe for disaster.

There is a big difference between a small portable system for private use, and a big system to feed 20+ paying members of the general public. In the case of a jump plane, the FAA probably wants to make sure the passenger-skydivers are offered a functional, tested, and safe oxygen system.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 2,393]

>And they need to assure that poorly designed, installed, or
>operated systems won’t cause the aircraft to catch fire or explode.

This is an important consideration often overlooked in oxygen-system installations. A common installation is a pressure-regulated PVC plenum with "calibrated orifices" (i.e. nipples) installed on the plenum. This usually works OK as long as the plenum is wide enough.

When these systems are not needed, they are removed and tossed in the corner of the hangar. Often when they are reinstalled they have picked up dirt and grease from the hangar. In a pure-O2 environment, grease/metal chips that gets inside a nipple can spontaneously combust, resulting in a very hot, intense fire that will rapidly consume the PVC plenum. If the plenum runs near any fabric, that will burn as well, and will burn quite intensely as long as the O2 supply is maintained. The positioning of many O2 systems means it often takes a few moments to find and turn off the O2 flow, during which time the fire could become extremely bad indeed.

[stratostar 5]

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but a typical skydiving oxygen installation is a mess, with hoses scattered and duct taped everyplace, and oxygen cylinders strapped in a variety of odd places. From an FAA inspectors perspective, that’s a recipe for disaster.

True many systems look like shit, even to skydivers, let alone to some office fresh FED. One thing that you & others may not have though of, is, today we see many videos getting posted to so many sites like youtube, skydiving movies, and DZ.com. I know we have a few jumping FAA peeps here, but if we (skydivers) think we're the only ones taking a look at the stupid stuff people post, like the video of the dude staggering out of a KA on a civilian HALO jump (I've seen it posted here at least twice) then we need to take more care in how we operate #1 and what "we" post for all to see #2. Videos of people allowing a person to stagger and fall down, flail around on the floor and then fall out some 30 to 45 seconds after trying to get to the door, after clearly showing signs of being hypoxic before they even tried to get to the door, is pretty fucked up, even more so that not one person on the load took action, other then yelling at the person to hurry up and get out.

In a way I'm not surprised the FAA is taking this action, even if they are wrong.

With images like this floating around in cyber space you can bet the FED's can and will see it, sooner or later.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

Awsome post. Right on the money.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

Thanks, every now and again I get to hit the ball.

Just telling it the way I see it, I have a very close immediate family member who has worked for the FED's & U.S. Army for the last 25 yrs. with in a strong aviation field & background (former jump pilot too 17 yrs) and I know those videos get around for a fact, after awhile, cuz they get sent to me. It might take sometime before the clips get sent to me from them, with a note that says WTF are these people stupid!

There are a lot of DZO's & aircraft operators who allow staff & fun jumpers to film stupid human tricks and then the stupid skydivers allow incriminating clips to find there way to cyber space, so they can look cool, but funny thing is too many don't stop to think of the bigger picture before uploading.

Hay ya'll watch this & hold my !

(Golf Clapping)So keep up the good work peep's ya all bring the shit on yourselfs and then get pissed off when the authorit-aaaay's show up. Or another skydiver calls you on your bullshit!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[kallend 1,623]

Any more news on this? Is it just one FSDO that's affected, or is it a nationwide ruling?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[headoverheels 291]

Maybe the possibility of fire should be part of the briefing for the person responsible for turning on/off the oxygen. I've done that before, but not been told about fire hazard.

[billvon 2,393]

>Maybe the possibility of fire should be part of the briefing for the person
>responsible for turning on/off the oxygen.

Indeed it should. Most O2 briefings are woefully inadeqate, and consist primarily of telling the operator which way to turn which valve.

[Royd 0]

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My "guess" is that a lot of garden hose and PVC pipe doesn't come with a TSO. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I sure as hell have seen a LOT of "skydiver" oxygen systems made out of it.

I've never had cause to use O2 on a jump plane, but I've always looked slightly askance at that piece of pvc with small tubes hanging out. It definately doesn't say ' professional.'

[billvon 2,393]

>after clearly showing signs of being hypoxic before they even tried to get
> to the door, is pretty fucked up, even more so that not one person on the
>load took action, other then yelling at the person to hurry up and get out.

I would add that in cases like this, you are generally dealing with several hypoxic people, none of whom has good judgment. If an oxygen system fails, that's what you are going to get. The idea that another skydiver can take control and stop a dangerous situation from getting worse isn't too realistic in such a scenario. Everyone is affected.

In most systems one hose (normally the pilot's) has a flow indicator that indicates 2lpm. (There are other types of indicators that indicate different flow rates, but 2lpm is common, and is good for up to 20,000 feet per the FAA.) When the O2 runs out or the system fails, there aren't really any good options that involve remaining at altitude. You can't "fix" an empty bottle, and hypoxic people are notoriously bad at fixing things anyway. If you can get everyone out of the plane right when the system fails, that might work out. If not, the pilot should ensure no one is going to exit then start an immediate descent to below 12,500 feet MSL.

I've seen what happens when people try to jump after their O2 systems fail, and it's not pretty.

A second option is to bring your own oxygen; there are systems that range from fat-cigar size to liter-bottle-of-coke size. That way when the O2 does go out:

1) you will still be able to exit safely
2) you will still be functional enough to try to fix the system, close the door and/or tell the pilot it's time to descend

[chrismgtis 0]

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Videos of people allowing a person to stagger and fall down, flail around on the floor and then fall out some 30 to 45 seconds after trying to get to the door, after clearly showing signs of being hypoxic before they even tried to get to the door, is pretty fucked up, even more so that not one person on the load took action, other then yelling at the person to hurry up and get out.

I said the same thing a while back about those incidents and got all but chewed out.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I would add that in cases like this, you are generally dealing with several hypoxic people, none of whom has good judgment. If an oxygen system fails, that's what you are going to get. The idea that another skydiver can take control and stop a dangerous situation from getting worse isn't too realistic in such a scenario. Everyone is affected.

Bill,
I whole heartedly agree... to the point even that on many "normal" (12.5) jump runs its rare, if ever, another skydiver can "take control" and diffuse a situation going bad. I think we have all been on enough jump runs where right around the time the green light is getting ready to go on or has just gone on and what starts as"confusion" or "a difference of opinion" over the spot... who should spot... the exit order... its cold, don't open the door yet... etc.... spirals out of control, resulting in not-so-nice words being exchanged. Much to my embarasment, shame and sorrow, I've been on the "wrong" side of this more times then I care to think about.

I'd pose, the key is to have a plan, have a good plan, have good equipment and stick to the plan. Changing plans mear moments before exit, unless it is truely a matter of life or death, rarely works out well.

[stratostar 5]

Very good point and from someone who would know, meaning a guy who takes his own bottle to the dance. Dispite this, my point was this kind of stuff is great to show people to educate them, but not a good idea for youtube or other outlets where it could be known that is was in the states, the AC, the DZ etc.

But you bring up a damn good point.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[scdrnr 0]

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A common installation is a pressure-regulated PVC plenum with "calibrated orifices" (i.e. nipples) installed on the plenum. This usually works OK as long as the plenum is wide enough.

PVC is not an approved material under FAR 23 for distribution plenum's.

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In a pure-O2 environment, grease/metal chips that gets inside a nipple can spontaneously combust, resulting in a very hot, intense fire that will rapidly consume the PVC plenum. If the plenum runs near any fabric, that will burn as well, and will burn quite intensely as long as the O2 supply is maintained.

This is why PVC is probably not a good material for this purpose.

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The positioning of many O2 systems means it often takes a few moments to find and turn off the O2 flow, during which time the fire could become extremely bad indeed.

FAR 23 is very clear that whether approved or not, the pilot must be able to readily turn off the high pressure source. This means either the bottle is within his reach or he can activate a remote valve.

[billvon 2,393]

>PVC is not an approved material under FAR 23 for distribution plenum's.

Well, no shit! Right now most DZO's are installing systems that just work OK, not systems that meet any sort of standard.

[diablopilot 2]

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PVC is not an approved material under FAR 23 for distribution plenum's.

AFAIR SDAZ used copper pipe. The only PVC set up I've seen was Perris.

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FAR 23 is very clear that whether approved or not, the pilot must be able to readily turn off the high pressure source. This means either the bottle is within his reach or he can activate a remote valve.

I know that SDAZ system allowed for that.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,393]

>AFAIR SDAZ used copper pipe. The only PVC set up I've seen was Perris.

The SDAZ system is likely safer, but I worry about the distribution. For a manifold/fixed orifice system the manifold has to be MUCH thicker than the nozzles - and I don't think 1/2 inch copper pipe gives you enough area. When it's not thick enough you get a pressure drop from one end of the system to the other, and even when the indicator by the pilot shows sufficient O2 the people at the end may not be getting enough. (Although they do feed the manifold from the center which helps.)

The biggest collection of oxygen systems I've seen in the US was at Eloy for the 300-way. About half were PVC, 1/3 were copper and the rest were things like flexible tubing to a chain of splitters.

The one on our aircraft was rather flakey. It had a flexible hose connection from the tank to the regulator, then clear vinyl tubing to a PVC manifold. (I think it was set up that way so the pilot could control it.) The PVC tubing was easily kinked, and at one point the pilot got sick of trying to get it to work, gave it to me and said "you fix it!"

[diablopilot 2]

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The SDAZ system is likely safer, but I worry about the distribution. For a manifold/fixed orifice system the manifold has to be MUCH thicker than the nozzles - and I don't think 1/2 inch copper pipe gives you enough area.

Agreed.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I think you just gave a fine indication of why the FAA would be looking into this. I can say that I have seen way more Mickey Mouse systems then I have systems done right. Which is one reason I have done only one high altitude jump.

The best ones I have seen are one Fayards Casas but that would be expected as he does military contract work. Of course those are not portable but they also didn't come with the airplane.

[billvon 2,393]

>I can say that I have seen way more Mickey Mouse systems then I have
>systems done right. Which is one reason I have done only one high altitude jump.

Getting your own system can solve that particular problem. That way you're not dependent on the aircraft system.

[kallend 1,623]

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>I can say that I have seen way more Mickey Mouse systems then I have
>systems done right. Which is one reason I have done only one high altitude jump.

Getting your own system can solve that particular problem. That way you're not dependent on the aircraft system.

Can you describe your system?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.