The FAA grounded a skydive O2 system today

[Zing 2]

My rant for the day.
Well boys and girls, it appears the repercussions from a recent bounce in the Southwest may have begun. A lot of us have sucked on a tube hooked to a portable oxygen bottle, temporarily installed in a jump plane for high-altitude loads.
As of today, one dropzone in the southwestern United States will no longer be able to fly their airplanes with the exact same O2 rigs in use throughout the US, and I’d guess, a number of foreign dropzones too. The dropzone owner was informed by an FAA representative that oxygen tanks used for supplemental O2 for the pilot and/or jumpers must be installed in the airframe behind a rear bulkhead along with approved plumbing for air lines to the passengers and pilot terminating in a canula or mask.
This particular FSDO’s arbitrary ruling on one dropzone’s O2 system sets a precedent for grounding the systems currently in use for skydiving. In effect, one FSDO is now interpreting the regulations to say that a portable O2 system is not legal for use in flight when supplemental oxygen is required.
The O2 systems used by the dropzones I’ve flown at are nothing more than a scaled up version of the portable systems sold to General Aviation pilots by a dozen, or so, manufacturers. This FSDO’s ruling implies these systems are illegal.
As a pilot and a jumper, I’ve been present when FAA reps looked over the aircraft and pilots at several dropzones and boogies. This is the first time I’m aware of that the feds took a close look at a skydiving operation’s O2 systems, other than to confirm that oxygen was provided for pilots and passengers. I flew in a formation load once with an FAA rep in the right seat, sucking on the end of a tube at 20,000 feet, just like the 21 jumpers in the back. No problem with it then, so why is there a problem now?
One part of the rational for this FSDO’s arbitrary ruling is attributed to a statement made following a recent bounce which implied that at 17,000 feet msl, skydivers have only 30 seconds before they become incapacitated.
I don’t need to identify the dropzone this happened at, it’s irrelevant, unless they want to comment. What is relevant is that years of cooperation between the FAA, DZOs and USPA to provide supplemental oxygen for skydiving utilizing practical systems has just taken a major hit that could reverberate through the jumping industry.
Might not be a bad time for the USPA and Group Member Dropzones, and the General membership to circle the wagons and head this one off at the pass. If the oversight of skydiving operations is going to be under the auspices of a federal authority, then the same rules should apply uniformly across the geographic area being regulated under that authority. The FAA should be required to present the regulation this FSDO is citing to ground an O2 system that is of a type that will be in, if not in use, in skydiving airplanes across the United States this weekend.

Zing Lurks

[DSE 3]

It wasn't just your dropzone that was visited.

[AggieDave 6]

Have you forwarded this to your RD and ND and also your local AOPA rep?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Zing 2]

Nope, my lifetime membership to USPA expired 33 years ago and I don't fly airplanes anymore. The ball's in your court ... tag, you're it!

Zing Lurks

[AggieDave 6]

Send me some details via PM or e-mail and I can atleast forward them along.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[quade 3]

You're tossing around the word "arbitrary" a lot.

Very little the FAA does could ever be considered arbitrary.

My guess is that it's a very strict, word for word, interpretation of existing regulations. Probably something having to do with the letters TSO.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

One part of the rational for this FSDO’s arbitrary ruling is attributed to a statement made following a recent bounce which implied that at 17,000 feet msl, skydivers have only 30 seconds before they become incapacitated.

From Wikepedia but it's what I also remember from my Flight Physiology class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Useful_Consciousness

Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC):

Altitude in Flight level Time of Useful Consciousness Altitude in meters Altitude in feet
FL 180 20 to 30 Min 5,486 m 18,000
FL 220 10 Min 6,706 m 22,000
FL 250 3 to 5 Min 7,620 m 25,000
FL 280 2.5 to 3 Min 8,534 m 28,000
FL 300 1 to 2 Min 9,144 m 30,000
FL 350 0.5 to 1 Min 10,668 m 35,000
FL 400 15 to 20 Sec 12,192 m 40,000
FL 430 9 to 12 Sec 13,106 m 43,000
FL 500 and above 9 to 12 Sec 15,240 m 50,000

FL = Flight Level. ie FL 180 approximately 18,000 ft above mean sea level.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[DSE 3]

USPA was already contacted today, FWIW.

[skyberdyber 0]

This is total BS(not the post) and if true, would never hold up in arbitration or court. GA has been using portable oxygen in non-pressurized, turbocharged aircraft for over 50 years successfully. Does the FAA really mean to say that a Cessna 182 is no longer allowed to cross the Rockies unless the owner spends a quarter of the aircraft's value to install an STC'd oxygen system?
That being said, the FAA may have temporarily halted the high altitude operations using that O2 system until they could investigate further.

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[quade 3]

Again, and I might be way off base here, but my guess is that it doesn't have to be STCed, just TSOed.

My "guess" is that a lot of garden hose and PVC pipe doesn't come with a TSO. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I sure as hell have seen a LOT of "skydiver" oxygen systems made out of it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[2fat2fly 0]

Shoot me the details before 8 am eastern tomorrow and I'll try to hit up Phil Boyer before I leave the show.

added-I'm at the AOPA show this weekend

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[tdog 0]

Assuming we are thinking about the same fatality - I can say I was on the load, and will vouch the system works, and can give details about who was and was not using it, when it was turned on, and how effective it was.

I will also say - with skydiving helmets being full face, the ONLY WAY TO DELIVER O2 to the user is thru a tube that can be inserted into the openings in the full face helmet. Cannulas and masks would not work for skydiving as just when you approach the altitude in which O2 is needed, you put on your helmet.

[n23x 0]

Nasal cannulas would work just fine with a full face helmet on.

(I'm in no way complaining about current O2 delivery systems, I'm just saying that not all cannulas wouldn't work.)

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[tdog 0]

Quote

Nasal cannulas would work just fine with a full face helmet on.

(I'm in no way complaining about current O2 delivery systems, I'm just saying that not all cannulas wouldn't work.)

.jim

I know many skydivers who "lock" their visor down so it won't blow open.

Hence, the only way to have the nasal cannula would be to have the jumper jump with it, or remove it before the helmet is put on. I think the risk of another tube/thing in my face is bigger than the (lack of) risks of a tube being used...

[n23x 0]

I guess I'm still having a hard time imagining how you can snake the hose to breath through your mouth in there, but not the same hose, and a tiny little nasal piece. Different' Strokes.

http://www.glasgowfirstaid.org/images/cannula.jpg

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[tdog 0]

I could be sarcastic and ask how many jumps you have been on with the little "aquarium tube" (such as the cannula tube you posted without the things to put in your nose) you have been on. Because, almost every load I have been on, the skydivers figured out that the little slits in the chin of a full face helmet allows passage of the tube to right in front of your mouth.

You can actually fill your whole helmet with O2 if it seals tight and you get the tube in there.

With the cannula, you have to get both into your nose, hope your nose is clear and not stuffed up, pass germs to the next person or have your own system, etc...

I believe, if required, less skydivers will use it, and thus the whole purpose of having it is lost.

And, with a wingsuit, try to manage the cannula. With a wingsuit you can hold the hose 1 foot below the end and use the stiffness to hold it right in front of your mouth. Once you zip up your wings and are sitting tightly in an aircraft, managing things on your head, like cannula systems, become awkward...

[n23x 0]

That's well and fine, I'm just proposing what I see to be a compromise with the least affect on skydivers (if indeed a change was required). The nasal cannula I posted has the smallest form factor that I know of and would probably be the least prohibitive (given all other options, outside of a straight tube).

The answer to your sarcastic (and a little snotty) question would be zero. I've been no higher than a 12.5k jump starting at 5050 MSL, as far as I know.

And if you want to use germs as an excuse, I think I might be personally more concerned with shared oral contact, rather than nasal.

But once again, this post (and all prior ones) hasn't been about what's comfortable, it's been about alternate possibilities that could be fairly cheaply implemented if that change was required, without grossly detering jumpers from using O2.

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[scdrnr 0]

Oxygen systems are not TSO'd. They are certified with the aircraft under FAR Part 23 (23.1441) requirements. Part 23 DOES ALLOW portable oxygen systems to be used in lieu of original equipment as long as the portable systems meet the applicable requirements and are properly secured in the cabin (in accordance with 23.561). It doesn't require the O2 system to be installed in any particular place.

Currently only cannulas or masks are approved as dispensing devices, with cannulas being limited to 18000 MSL and requiring certain placards about their use. I believe the system in question here does not meet that requirement, even though it is probably more practical for the type of use.

As long as the distribution lines are made of medical or gas industry standard parts then they are approved in accordance with 21.303. Nonmetallic tubing may only be used from outlets to the dispensing units. I believe the system in question does comply here.

Here's the big get out of jail free card. These specific requirements only apply to aircraft certified with supplemental oxygen or approved for operations above supplemental oxygen altitudes.

So if the aircraft never had an oxygen system, or it was properly removed, and has no "approved" altitude - by this I mean an actual FAA Approved max altitude in its Limitations Section, or TCDS, (mostly only applicable to pressurised aircraft) then the only requirements are (paraphrased):

1. That the system not pose a hazard in itself or upon other components.

2. That the pilot can determine the quantity in flight

3. That the pilot can turn off the supply at the high pressure source (tank)

I do believe that this is typical arbitrary FAA bullshit. Going out of their way to nitpick over the letter of the law when there is no safety issue, even when practicality and common sense would dicate otherwise.

Exactly how did they ground the system? What paperwork did they issue? The FAA has very limited authority here when it comes to part 91 ops. Even a Condition Notice is not really a grounding. Until they have actually succesfully processed a violation on this, which takes time and resources, they don't have anything. I have dealt with inspectors who have attempted to "ground" aircraft and it turns out they were full of shit.

[tdog 0]

Quote

The answer to your sarcastic (and a little snotty) question would be zero.

Sorry about that.... I knew it was when I posted it, but I was feeling the urge...

Snotty is a good word, because when you are snotty, nasal cannulas don't work so well. I for one have allergies. I would need to find an alternative anyway. (like put the nasal cannula in front of my mouth).

Sorry if I offended ya...

[n23x 0]

No, I was being a little cranky too, it's all good in the neighborhood.

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[billvon 2,396]

>Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC):

Those are numbers for aircrews seated at their stations - not a bigway base trying to muscle a chunk out. I have seen a few cases of floaters who have to float for only 90-120 seconds at 18,000 MSL become impaired.

[billvon 2,396]

>I know many skydivers who "lock" their visor down so it won't blow open.

Right - and you can still use a nasal cannula. I have a helmet designed for just that. It has the cannula integrated with a port intended for a two-female-ended O2 hose.

[Zing 2]

Well, some can argue semantics of whether a portable system in use for quite sometime at a lot of dropzones, including the one who's system got grounded, was previously okay to use, but the exact same system became unapproved overnight is an arbitrary decision or not ... and you all can discuss until you're blue in the face whether a canula or a tube works best in your spiffy helmets ... but it isn't going to matter a whit if this one FSDO's decision becomes the precedent used for prohibiting the use of portable O2 systems on jump planes in the U.S. Don't lose sight of the forest just because there's a few trees in your view.

A bunch of people ask for more details. Sorry, all the details I know about this instance are contained in the original post.

Zing Lurks

[DSE 3]

At the end of the day, isn't this precisely what USPA is supposed to manage for us? I'd expect that USPA can approach the FAA with this ruling and force clarification or a statement from the FAA.

[quade 3]

Quote

At the end of the day, isn't this precisely what USPA is supposed to manage for us? I'd expect that USPA can approach the FAA with this ruling and force clarification or a statement from the FAA.

Hopefully!

My guess is that the DZ in question has dealt with the local FSDO before about several issues, but this is something that goes to an entirely different level and I would think that the USPA would want to get an Interp from the FAA's Office of Legal Council.

THIS is the sort of thing that we belong to the USPA for. Not the pretty magazines or funny competitions, but rather the dealings with the boys in DC.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver