Dytter Dependency

[vonSanta 0]

I don't own one of these devices - yet. Have learned on this forum that it's advisable to set it slightly lower than for instance your breakoff altitude - that way the dytter is a backup in case you lose altitude awareness and you avoid becoming dytter dependent.

In all honesty, I'm wondering how many adhere to this rule/suggestion/advice. Talked to some freefliers about it - got various responses. We talked about dytters failing (just broken, battery dead, not on etc.). Some paraphrasing of the answers:

"That's why I have two!"
"You should use your eyes and alti, but in reality you will forget to now and then, so a dytter or two are good for ya. Don't depend on 'em though"
"Alti's fail too - and you ain't looking at the ground in a head down or sit, so get a dytter or two"

Some have admitted to a more dependent approach, where they carry two (or more) audibles and checking them as far as them functioning goes is part of their pre-jump check.

I can relate to the "forgetting to check alti" thing. Last jump I glanced at the alti for the first time at 5000 feet - too busy trying to maintain proximity and level...(level..ity?) with my partner and enjoying myself while sitflying. Big wakeup call and I've been going through over and over htf I could forget about altitude til just above breakoff time. Internal clock helped me there I gather, but what if the jump had been from 10 000 feet instead of 13 000?

My questions are: how common is dytter dependency? And more importantly, any mental exercises (telling yourself "remember to check alti" on the plane seems to be somewhat flawed) that'll ensure you're more heads up altitude wise?

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[TheBachelor 4]

One day when I forgot my wrist-mount altimeter, I realized that I usually only look at it on the plane ride up. Otherwise, yes, I'm pretty much Dytter dependent. That being said, I'm always jumping with groups, and use them as my backup for breakoffs. I also recently realized that just before the "pull" signal of my Dytter goes off, I'm already waving off, and reaching for the pilot chute.

If I were on a solo jump, would I look at my altimeter? Yes.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[champu 1]

I got a protrack about 10 jumps ago or so. I set it at the breakoff altitude, at my pull altitude, and at my hard deck.

So far on each of my jumps I've been turning to start my track as the first alarm goes off, and waving off as the second alarm goes off (haven't needed the third alarm so far ). I know I've only done it a handful of times, but even when set directly at the altitudes you want, I think it can act as a backup.

[headoverheels 291]

I have an ancient one-altitude ditter. I set it at an altitude that I should be well into a track (3k for small loads, where we'll break at 3.5k or 4k). I've never had it go off while I'm still in formation.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

During the Eloy Holiday Boogie, I experience a problem with the chin cup on my camera helmet and was forced to do about six jumps without a helmet and my audible and believe it or not, it was a refereshing experience to jump without it.

Audibles are great tools, especially when freeflying. But don't become dependent on them as they can fail. And do do a jump every once in a while without your audible just to prove to yourself that you are in control.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

it was a refereshing experience to jump without it.

Could you explain what was refreshing? (I am another no-audible-yet jumper.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Quote

it was a refereshing experience to jump without it.

Could you explain what was refreshing? (I am another no-audible-yet jumper.)

The fact that I was in control of my situation. We all develop these internal clocks, but internal clocks don't always work (jumping from different altitudes can mess with your clock, doing different types of jumps like freeflying-RW-birdman can mess with your clock, jumping in different density altitude situations can also mess with your internal clock). So the fact that I was watching the horizon and knew that this looked like the break off altitude and low and behold, I was right. Don't get me wrong, I still jump with my audible, but I was happy to experience jumping without it as well.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[vonSanta 0]

Quote

One day when I forgot my wrist-mount altimeter, I realized that I usually only look at it on the plane ride up. Otherwise, yes, I'm pretty much Dytter dependent. That being said, I'm always jumping with groups, and use them as my backup for breakoffs. I also recently realized that just before the "pull" signal of my Dytter goes off, I'm already waving off, and reaching for the pilot chute.

If I were on a solo jump, would I look at my altimeter? Yes.

Yeah, we discussed the "group" thing too. The caveat with that is you need to be level with your pals for it to work. Or at the very least have a clear visual on 'em.

When I've been sit-flying with some even suckier-than-me freefliers, they've tumbled and ended up a good bit higher than me, and I've been unable to slow down my sit to maintain level(ity? we need a word for that, heh)Had I trusted in them for breakoff, I'd have dumped way lower than intended. So, while it is helpful to jump in a group, I've been told byy much more experienced freefliers to only trust myself. First myself, then alti, then dytter. On the other hand, others have said that that if you use more than one audible and check 'em for functionality, beig dytter dependent isn't that big of a deal. Not sure what I think about that - have my doubts still.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[boxingrrl 0]

I lost my Pro-track and jumped without one for a few weeks last year. No problem, really. I did find myself trying to sneak glances at my Alti while shooting video, though. (The internal clock really does kick in and without the audible to confirm, I wanted to be sure I was on the mark.) I've done some Birdman jumps and used my Alti a lot for those. The speed is so different, I had to keep checking, because I was still at 10 grand-- and now I'm at 9-- and on down the line.

I like to know where I'm at. If the audible can tell me that, great. If it doesn't-- I'm still going to find out.

The distraction factor will always be there, I suppose. It doesn't hurt to have a back-up-- whether it's an audible or a Cypres. It's still always up to you to pull and having both Dytters dead is no excuse for going in.

[billvon 2,384]

>In all honesty, I'm wondering how many adhere to this rule/suggestion/advice.

I do it most of the time. On dives that are really critical (world records) I set it exactly on the altitudes, but in those cases it's not my primary breakoff key anyway. On normal dives I usually leave it set at 3500 and break off above that altitude.

[gremlin 0]

I find that the problem with setting it at a lower altitude than you want to break off is that you either get fixated by your alti in an attempt to "beat the dytter" or work a bit lower til you hear the dytter go off.
Personally I set mine at break off, pull and PULL but I constantly check my alti and try to not work on the alti not the dytter.

I'm drunk, you're drunk, lets go back to mine....

[billvon 2,384]

>I find that the problem with setting it at a lower altitude than you
> want to break off is that you either get fixated by your alti in an
> attempt to "beat the dytter" or work a bit lower til you hear the
> dytter go off.

That's exactly why I set it lower. If I ever find myself doing one of those two things, I can fix the problem _before_ I end up at 1000 feet with nothing out. Dytters are very easy to get dependent on.

[MajorDad 0]

Quote

Personally I set mine at break off, pull and PULL but I constantly check my alti and try to not work on the alti not the dytter.

I set mine the same way. Between the internal time clock and the Mark I Eyeball, the Protrack is just another backup device that I dont rely on, nor am surprised when it goes off, but it is there.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[rjf98 0]

Well... I can't believe I'm actually saying this... but.

How often did people say not to rely on the alti, but rather on the eyeball when altis as we know them were first becomming popular? How many would now say that your eyeballing technique is superior to the alti on your wrist?

I know I used to be of the school that the audible was back up and not to be trusted. I think I'm changing my mind. While some features may not work as advertised on some of this equipment (speed readings, etc) seems to me that the technology is sophisitcated enough at this point that audibles are as reliable as mechanical altis as long as they are properly maintained.

If you are doing a serious dive then you really don't have time to be glancing at your alti every few seconds like we teach students.

Do I wear both? Yes. Do I trust both equally? Yes. Do I ever go through a jump without glancing at the alti until after we breakoff? All the time. I then focus more on the wrist mount to be honest, and never rely fully on the audible for pull altitude.

Just my .02

[faulknerwn 36]

The problem is that sometimes you don't hear your audible. A failed visual is pretty easy to recognize, a failed audible much harder. I mean - it doesn't even mean mechanical failure - I've been preoccupied on dives and never noticed my audible going off, or maybe my hearing wasn't that good or who knows what. I hear my audble _most_ of the time but certainly not always. And in reality I think the failure hasn't been with the device on most of those.

W

[billvon 2,384]

>How many would now say that your eyeballing technique is
>superior to the alti on your wrist?

A mechanical altimeter is more accurate; your eyes are more reliable. The mechanical altimeter should always be a backup to your eyes.

>I know I used to be of the school that the audible was back up and
> not to be trusted. I think I'm changing my mind.

What sound does your audible make if it fails just after exit?

For a pilot to rely on most aircraft instruments, the instrument both has to be reliable and give an indication of failure when it does fail. That's the good thing about a mechanical altimeter. If you look at it and it's not changing, there's a good chance it's broken and it's time to either look down or pull (if you can't judge altitude with your eyes.) If your audible is making no noise, is it broken or just not at its activation altitude yet?

>While some features may not work as advertised on some of this
> equipment (speed readings, etc) seems to me that the technology
> is sophisitcated enough at this point that audibles are as reliable as
> mechanical altis as long as they are properly maintained.

Don't confuse accuracy and utility with reliability. Any device with a battery is going to have an inherent reliability problem, as is a device that needs software to operate correctly.

>If you are doing a serious dive then you really don't have time to be
> glancing at your alti every few seconds like we teach students.

If you are doing a dive that gives you no time to check your altitude - change the dive. Altitude awareness is critical even if you are doing something complicated. Personally, I've set four state records, a world record, and done over 1000 AFF's without an audible; on many of those dives I never even looked at my mechanical altimeter.

There's nothing wrong with teaching students to use a mechanical altimeter as their primary sense of altitude; it's just plain easier than judging with your eyes. It takes a few hundred jumps to be able to tell 2000 feet from 4000, but once you have that judgement, it is far more reliable than any altimeter. At that point, mechanical/electronic altimeters become backups, and add another layer of reliability to your inherent altitude awareness.

[slotperfect 7]

I don't depend on mine - I never have. I will jump without one, and when I do, altitude awareness is not a problem. When I first started jumping one years ago, I was taught to use it only as a reminder. I trained myself that way and remain that way today.

Arrive Safely

John

[karlm 0]

Get one as soon as you can .... you'll never regret the purchase. I have mine set for break off (4000ft), deplyment (3200ft), and my hard deck (1500ft). When I did alot of 4-Way training, I became very dependent on my audible as mu focus was based on the dive and not altitude, we also had a break off person, who would leave on 4000ft, but then we all wore a audible.

In South Africa, you cannot Freefly without one, it's part of or MOPS (Manual of Procedures) or BSR's. With the higher speeds generated altitude awarenes is vital.

They are also neat to log jumps with (ProTrack) and download to your PC if you get the extra software and stuff.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[Jumpmunki 0]

guilty as charged.. i use to for breakoff (when freeflying) then watch the ground and my alti.. it beeps at 3500 to remind me to keep watching my alti then i pull at 3 grand

everything can fail i've only got 109 jumps right.. and i've already had my alti jam twice in that time (sent it for a service).. i didn't have an audible either so i watched around me for others pulling checked above me and did the same...

it's not rocket science, gadgets are great you just have to have confidence in yourself if things don't beep when they should ...

[EricaH 0]

Quote

It takes a few hundred jumps to be able to tell 2000 feet from 4000, but once you have that judgement, it is far more reliable than any altimeter.

This is very good to hear. I was starting to feel inept for not being able to tell visually w/ only 180 jumps
As far a being ditter dependant... I have a story. Mid/late last season a friend lent me his older (1 warning) ditter to help me on break off since I was doing more sit flying. Well, I totally, unknowingly became dependant on it. At the end of season, the red "it's still working" lite was still on, but unbeknownst to me, it was not working.... I had a very low pull (for me anyway)... where the cypress was about to fire. and got a good yelling at from my b/f & others on the dive.

Internally, wilst traking, I was thinking, gosh, those houses & cars shure do look big, looked @ my wrist alti & sure enough, they were big, cause they were so close.

Well, that gave me a huge scare!! Now, I'm almost paranoid about checking my alti, then looking @ the horizon & the trees, trying to ingrain in my mind what they look like @ each check point.

Went to FL a few weeks ago w/ my new protrack. I noticed that I was breaking off & then pulling just befroe my ditter went off. Turns out, since I have it set @ the "do it" altitude, that I was doing these things early, but better a second early than a few seconds late.

End result - yea, I broke my ditter dependency. Wonder if there should be a 12 step support group for this?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Dave1216 0]

Last Sunday I launched a 3-way but after around 10 seconds lost formation. Then fell into a thick cloud (snow). I lost visual contact with the other two jumpers. My goggles 'fogged' so badly that I couldn't see my alti. I wanted to focus on where I last saw the other two to try and maintain heading. Otherwise I would have removed my goggles, in snow this would have been fun!

Break-off was planned at 4500 and dump at 3000.

Obviously I didn’t want to dump high (in cloud) as there may have been people after me. I couldn’t dump low as the other two were below me.

I didn’t know when the cloud would end so I was forced to rely on my ProTrack. I wouldn’t have left it too long before dumping. At 4500 I turned 180 and tracked until the bleep. I was under canopy at 2500. Cloud base was at 2300-2400. On exit the winds were around 15 and little cloud, as we fell winds picked up to 30knots(or so) and brought cloud with it. It was so freak that only half the loud exited.

Now to the point, without my Dytter, I don’t know how I would have handled this. Maybe I would have dumped higher. In any case I was happy to have it on that dive.

Although i should add, i don't condier myself dependent. On a normal dive i always pre-empt my audible.

[rjf98 0]

All valid points, and I thank you for bringing them up.

Not one of the dives you describes as serious mentioned competition 4 way.

What are your feelings about internal clock etc on those kind of skydives?

[fudd 0]

I think dytters are a little like a cypres.
If my dytter takes me by suprise and starts beeping I've screwed up and the little electronic wonder saved my butt.
When I know my altitude and think: "now it's time for my dytter to start", I'm OK.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[jbrasher 0]

You can be dependent upon anything, audible, visual, other jumpers, etc.

What you want is a way to crosscheck each one.
Multiple points of reference will usually show a discrepency and hopefully then you pay more attention.

Red, White and Blue Skies,

John T. Brasher D-5166

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

The problem is that sometimes you don't hear your audible. ....
- I've been preoccupied on dives and never noticed my audible going off, or maybe my hearing wasn't that good or who knows what. I hear my audble _most_ of the time but certainly not always. And in reality I think the failure hasn't been with the device on most of those.

I jump with 2 audibles; a Pro-Track on the left, and an older Dytter on the right...I could have sworn to you that they both failed on jumps, only to see that my Pro-Track recorded everything the whole time...

I wish there was a way to make them louder. But the GREAT part about that is that I have never relied upon them. They're fun for me to have, and a 'just in case'...but my mechanical on my wrist is what I use, and I'm doing as Bill said earlier, developing my eye through more jumps.

-Dytter dependency is one habit that thankfully I have not fallen into, and I don't expect I ever will.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.