AndyMan 7 #1 October 19, 2004 A simple, anonymous poll. Please post if you'll share your story, otherwise just vote. Edited to add: Let's not turn this thread into one where we try to deconstruct whatever errors may have led to the given situation. Let's try to keep this as a place for people to tell their story without being jumped on. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #2 October 19, 2004 I had a main pilot chute in tow on jump 31, pulled the reserve by 2,000ft but the reserve pilot chute entangled with the main pilot chute. Had to go into a head down dive to clear the mess and didn’t have the reserve open until around 500ft. After landing and a few of deep breaths I found the cypress had fired, as it should. It hadn’t cut the reserve loop since I had already pulled my reserve handle. Though I had already pulled the reserve, it was very reassuring to see my Cypress had worked properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #3 October 19, 2004 QuoteYes, main closing pin intact Please give an example, this seems confusing....Unless you ment the Reserve loop, and that only works on a few rigs....A Jav will cut the loop even if you pulled the reserve."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #4 October 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteYes, main closing pin intact Please give an example, this seems confusing....Unless you ment the Reserve loop, and that only works on a few rigs....A Jav will cut the loop even if you pulled the reserve. I took this to mean that they had a cypress fire before they had pulled their main... in other words..it wasn't a main malfunction, but a loss of altitude awareness that caused the fire... (could be wrong, but that was my guess) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #5 October 19, 2004 Quotein other words..it wasn't a main malfunction, but a loss of altitude awareness that caused the fire... That's exactly what I meant. Landing after a cypres fire with the main still properly stowed. A cypres fire that did not result in a two out, a cypres fire that most likely would have resulted in a fatality had the device not functioned, or been installed. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #6 October 19, 2004 QuotePlease post if you'll share your story You missed an option in your poll. Another option should be "Yes, but only your main came out". But because that option didn't exist, I had to vote for the "two out option". Now I just know some of you ######## out there are just dying to judge me (comments not directed at AndyMan) and for those of you who are quick to judge, here's my finger ... and my story. In the Spring of 2003 when I had in the neighborhood of 200 or so jumps I was doing a solo head down freefly jump. For what ever reason I passed through my ProTrack break off altitude of 4500 feet without hearing the warning beep, but I was watching the horizon all the way and had every intention of transitioning to my belly. So when my 3000 foot ProTrack pull altitude warning went off, I transitioned to my belly. But I was hauling ass and it only took about 2 1/2 seconds to go from 3000 feet to 2300 feet. At 2300 feet AGL I can be seen on video waving off and pitching my main canopy and my main (a Sabre2 170 at the time) opened in it's usual snivelly way. But at the very tail end of the snivel I must have passed through 1200 feet and you can hear a click (as if someone snapped their fingers) on the video and I can only assume that this was my Cypres firing while I was deep in the saddle. Unknown to myself at the time, the reserve bridle and PC was dangling out of my container but the reserve did not come out and I proceeded to land my main canopy with this reserve bridle and PC dangling from the container (and yes I know I am lucky that the shit didn't hit the fan as I performed a 180 front riser landing with this configuration). I knew that I had fucked up in that I went lower than I should have been, but I still thought that deploying my main canopy in the 2k region, that I would be fine (once again it is all on video showing me wave off at 2300 feet and likely pitching the main PC in the 1900-2000 foot range). But because of the speed in which I was travelling (coming off of a head down jump) and the fact that this happened in the rarified air of Colorado, my Cypres fired. As to why the reserve never came out of the container, well the answer is two fold. I was deep in the saddle when the Cypres fired and the reserve at the time was considered tight for the container (a new reserve one size smaller was purchased afterwards, plus I no longer own this container anyway). Did I fuck up? Hell ya!!! Techinically I did lose altitude awareness despite the fact that I was watching the horizon the entire way. But at 200 jumps (or whatever I had at the time) I didn't have the experience to recognize what 3000 feet and 45000 feet looked like despite the fact that I thought I did at the time. Did I learn a lesson? Of course I did? Did I get grounded? Technically no, but I was talked to by one of the DZs more experienced freefliers and since this incident happened on a Saturday, the local rigger decided upon themselves to ground me by not repacking my reserve until Monday. So in essence I was grounded by the DZ. Now in my closing thought I have a couple of things to say to all you ######## who are quick to judge me: 1) This incident happened a long time ago (500-600 jumps ago) and I am a different person now than I was back then. Back then I always wanted to jump my AAD turned on. But if you can believe it, nowadays I do jumps (hop n' pops and solo wingsuit dives) where I purposely have the AAD turned off. In fact I didn't jump at all this last weekend with my AAD turned on (9 hop n' pops and one solo wingsuit dive). 2) I'm beginning to like hanging around BASE jumpers more than skydivers. Now I don't want you to get alarmed as I still like to skydive. But if I fuck up in the BASE jumping world (and survive), I know my BASE jumping peers will talk to me. But they won't judge me the way skydivers like to judge people and you know they aren't going to try and ground me, because they know they can't ground me. So to all you higher than holy judgemental skydivers who are uncapable of making mistakes, here's my finger ... I'd like to see what you would do at 2k. And to the rest of the non-judgemental types, if you ever find yourself coming off of a head down jump at 2k in Colorado, go for silver instead of your main PC. The 750 foot Cypres altitude everyone hears of is when you are belly to earth. The Cypres will fire much higher (1000-1200 foot range) if your are feet first, head first or even on your back. AADs are great for saving skydivers lives when free fall collisions occur, but they should not be relied upon for much else. If you have a medical condition where you blacked out and the Cypres saved your life, count yourself lucky. But should you really have been jumping in the first place? And when I'm BASE jumping, my AAD is the ground. I just hope I never use it. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #7 October 19, 2004 Jeez tell us how you really feel! Ah, the people who want to judge you the most are often the same ones who deny making their own mistakes. Screw’em! As for whether you should be grounded or not, I look at it this way… If you realize you had a close call and/or that you screwed up it is better to talk about how to avoid making the same mistake(s) twice and get back up in the air as soon as possible. If you haven’t got a clue what happened and/or you deny making any mistakes then being grounded is proper. Maybe with time and a whole lot of people pestering the jumper they might realize what just happened and how close they came to having a REALLY bad skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKKid35 1 #8 October 19, 2004 QuoteAADs are great for saving skydivers lives when free fall collisions occur, but they should not be relied upon for much else. Bear in mind that I'm a complete novice, but I don't rely on a Cypres, any more than I rely on a seatbelt, but I always wear a seatbelt even though there is a theoretical posibility that I could be trapped in a burning/sinking car. I'm sure the car analogy has it's limitations, and I certainly don't have the experiance to fully understand them, but I won't be relying on an AAD, nor will I jump without one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #9 October 19, 2004 Simple answer, yes and resulted in a two out..... Lesson learned from that and have not had a similar or remotely similar problem in close to 10 years now.. Jumping from 14K all weekend for 4-way traning.. Clouds roll in and decide to go get one more jump. Just run to plane and dont take anythig but rig. Decided to do a two way and ended up exiting at ~2300-2400 ft. After a number of points the other person dumped in front of me and first thought was "SH#T" ground wass BIG and even w/o alti I knew I was low. Moved to side to get out from under other deploying jumper and pitched. Small eliptical 116 Batwing that had a slow opening. Just after main opened something felt funny I looked over my shoulder to see the freebag going to line stretch and my first thought was "shit" so I cut the main away before the reserve was open, thinking canopy transfer. All good right!!! Wrong, a second later found myself looking up at a "Cut Away Main Main/Reserve Bi-Plane" with the cut away handle in my hand and cables dangling. Second thought: "WTF, this is not what I was expecting!" Cant really turn well given a good asymetric load could release a riser that iwas trapped by the reserve risers, Did I mention these wre integrety risers. Additionally I was flying away from a possible landing area on the edge of the airport to wards the woods and I could not turn. Life sucked at this point. The long and short is that I fired my Cypress from a low pull and was cursing myself a good amount. The Integetry risers gave an unexpected twist to the situation and luckely i did the right things to save my arse.. I freely admit I was a lucky camper from the opening low issue all the way through the cut away main biplane to landing under my reserve alone. It all sucked and from that day on I have been a huge proponent for altitude awareness for all of my students and myself... If you dont learn from mistakes and make adjustments in this sport it will bite you back.... Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #10 October 19, 2004 You could have added a "pulled main too low, then canopy transfer upon cypres fire". Posted on the other Cypres thread (slightly edited): At the 2001 Mardi Gras boogie, first jump of the weekend, one of the co-captains for the TSR 150 way event was organizing a 10 way comprised of experienced jumpers. Average experience was well over 1000 jumps apiece. After dirt diving and boarding the plane, I asked the organizer what our break-off altitude is. He looked at me a little sheepishly and hand-signs 3.5K. My eyes widened for a second and I didn't say anything. I thought about getting off the group but didn't. Hindsight is always 20/20. Anyway, we start off great, doing a shit-hot sequential dive, then right around 4000 feet, the formation falls apart and everybody's tumbling and trying to get stable and get each others' bearings, and at the same time our audibles are going off (for me, a LED light) and we're trying to get the hell out of dodge. I start tracking, but notice two others tracking in the same direction, below and off both sides of me. I made the decision to wait for them to pull and clear my airspace so as not to risk a canopy collision. Alas, the last one pulled slightly under 2K and I went screaming past him, then I dumped. My canopy snivels enough that any pull below 1700 feet puts me in Cypres firing range. Sure enough, I'd gotten in the saddle and just about grabbed my toggles when I felt the pop on my back. A quick look to confirm (PC was trailing, but the dbag hadn't come off my back yet), and I quickly chopped my main and had a clean reserve opening. Needless to say, I was pissed off at myself for getting way deep in the beeps. Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #11 October 19, 2004 The standard case of why some are against the AAD; I had about 4000 jumps at the time, and was on the outer ring of flyers on a 64-way. At breakoff, turn and track like hell until 2000 and (according to the organizer's rule) don't dare pull above 2 grand. Well, 2000 turns into 1600 or so very quickly, and with a slow-opening main, ended up with two out. But not just any old bi-plane, an immediate downplane. Chopped and had about a 10 sec. reserve ride. As I used to wear a camera while doing big-ways, the dz got some good video of the ordeal. Now my absolute hard deck for main deployment is 2500, period. If an organizer insists on below that, I'll sit it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FemaleFlyer 0 #12 October 20, 2004 I hear ya, I really don't like to pull low at all, but I really enjoy big ways. At any normal jump my normal pull alt is around 3000 (avg between belly and FF jumps) I could not answer the poll there was not an option for me. I had a cypress fire, but was not a save. I was in the base of a 60+ record way. When you are the last 12 or so to track off it may be a little down and dirty. Well, I tracked off and pulled my chute I uncounted a slight hesitation with a very long snivel. During the snivel you can see the canopy is trying to spin up to the left so I am going with it and so far no line twist, and then as the canopy is fully opening it takes a rapid turn to the right and now I have a full line twist, Yes just one. I know I am low and dirty, but I have had these twist before and they came out in no problem, So I tried about one and half tries. During the second attempt I knew this is way too low, it is time to cut away and fire the reserve. At that moment the canopy is spinning completely on my back. Between deciding to get ride of the canopy and the actual cutting away of the canopy(cables fully release) I heard my 1700 feet go off. Ok I am on my back, falling away from my canopy with my hand already on the reserve handle trying with all my might to flip over and pull the reserve. I had a great opening, and plenty of alt to decide where to land, kept all handles, etc. When I got to the ground, I knew that was low, really low and was wondering if the cypress had fired. I looked at my Pro -Track and it read 700 feet. When I took the rig off, I found out that the cypress has indeed fired. I was mad, scared, glad, every emotion you could imagine. I had video of the whole thing too, which after watching the video it made me feel better about the situation. It showed that I did everything in a very quickly matter. On the video you can see that the shiny little reserve handle was completely out and pulled at 1000 feet. Now, do I like that I was that low, no, but I did save my life and I learned something from this. I learned when I play on big ways I will jump something way more predictable then a Velo and something that opens way quicker. It is just not worth it to have to deal with that kind of situation when you are dumping that low. Also, I will not really give a canopy a second chance before deciding to get ride of it, but it is hard when you know these things sometimes come out of line twist so easy. Good thing I had video, when I got back to my home DZ there was all kinds of rumors around the DZ, but luckily video can prove what really happened and not the rumor of I had a cut-away then did nothing tell the cypress fired, I thought that was the funniest one of them all. ______________________________________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 October 20, 2004 We used to make bets on how many cypres fires there would be at Skydive Lake Tahoe when we had boogies. The Byron and Hollister crowds were used to 14K + of altitude from 15 ASL. When they came to Tahoe they got 12.5K from 5,000 ASL. Those things were poppin' left and right. Oh. And I had one out of the heli years ago in Quincy. Young, dumb and overly excited. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #14 October 20, 2004 No, never tested my cypres. Otherwise I would have grounded myself forever!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #15 October 20, 2004 Nope and I think scaring my Cypres is a bad thing...The closest I have come is at Lost Prarie on some POPS loads.. and there were several Cypres fires on theose. I dont mind takeing it down to 2k out of the base.. but man I wish some of the peeps were staying a tad more altitude aware on some of those loads.. Some of thos people scared me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #16 October 20, 2004 Yep - Not a Cypres fire but FXC - It was jump # 16, (static line course) I lost altitude awareness when tumbling after a poor attempt at tracking - by the time I recovered stability I was going for the main ripcord and WHAM - Instant canopy. I did get back in the air that same day, though. Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #17 October 20, 2004 If you would actually quit skydiving because of a close call, you're in the wrong sport, my friend. Did you never hear the old saying used after getting thrown from a horse when learning to ride? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #18 October 20, 2004 QuoteIf you would actually quit skydiving because of a close call, you're in the wrong sport, my friend. Did you never hear the old saying used after getting thrown from a horse when learning to ride? Actually, I did fall off a horse and break a rib and sprain an ankle once. I was at a friend's horse ranch maybe 5 years ago riding her horses. The one I was on was kinda uppity. It loved to gallop. With my limited experience on horses, I was hanging on for dear life when it bolted all of a sudden and approached a corner of the ranch, then did an abrupt about-face, throwing me off. My head missed the wooden fence by a foot or so. All I could say was "you bitch ass motherfucker, if I owned you, I'd send you to the glue factory!" I managed to get up and get back on the horse but my side was hurting something fierce. I didn't sleep much at all for 3 or 4 nights. Needless to say, horses ain't for me. I trust my rig more than I trust ornery bitch ass horses... I've had plenty of close calls in this sport, but I'm still going... Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #19 October 20, 2004 Nope...and if I ever did and it wasn't because I was unconscious or seriously hurt and unable to pull myself, I'd ground myself for a bit.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #20 October 20, 2004 QuoteNo, never tested my cypres. Otherwise I would have grounded myself forever!! How do you know that unless you have been there? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #21 October 20, 2004 Not a cypres, but an FXC12000... Had my very own personal downplane too (Something I've posted before) At jump 50 I ended up under 2 canopies, don't know my exact pull-hight but after canopy check I was at 2100 ft. A bit too low because since the FXC at our DZ is set at 1000 ft you should be open by 2500 ft. It may have been the FXC was 'sharp' already in which case it could have fired at any altitude after opening shock, or that I was in the 1500 ft-above-firing-height-window. Had removed the brakes on the main (front canopy) because I didn't know yet I had 2 out. Flew very very gently with main toggles after I found out. Main was 230 sqft, reserve 256 sqft. Ended up with a personal downplane at 1000 ft so chopped the main. Got grounded for a couple weeks, not really because of the too-low pull, but because I chopped the main Explanation: another skydiver was under his reserve, my instructor was watching HIM after seeing me 'safely' in a bi-plane. He didn't see the downplane. My coach did though... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #22 October 20, 2004 I had an FXC fire on about my 50th jump, and it wasn't a low pull. BUT, when I did my gear check I think I set it for just barely above 1000' instead of just barely below 1000', thinking a little higher was better, not even thinking about the large "margin for error" associated with an FXC. I guess maybe I didn't realize. I deployed by 3000', had unstowed my brakes and was flying my main towards the landing area when suddenly the canopy surged forward and down, then righted itself. Freaky, I thought, then looked up and looked again. Two canopies! My first thought was "Oh Shit! This can't be good!" but then I thought back to my ground school, looked up again and said to myself, "Ronco says I can land this!" (Ron Nowak, skydiving instructor extrordinairre!) and so I did. Nicest, softest landing I've ever had! Then I had a discussion with one of the tandem masters about my deployment altitude (he really didn't believe me) and with the S&TA about how to safely fly and land a bi-plane, just in case I found myself in that situation in the future. And then I trudged through some snowy fields looking for a white freebag and reserve pilot chute, with absolutely no luck! At some point I think I talked briefly with the DZO too, who told me he was glad I was OK and thought I dealt with the situation just fine. I wasn't grounded and didn't have to pay for the repack either. And luckily, even though I didn't find the freebag, one of the neighboring farmers did and brought it in. I was still jumping student gear at the time and found out months later that that exact same rig had at least 3 other FXC fires on it. Talk about a cursed rig! Since there were enough rental rigs my size that were cypres equipped, and my own gear was already on order, that was my LAST jump with an FXC! So there's my 2 out story! And to this day, I appreciate the fact that the instructors and DZO took the time to talk to me and listen to me without making any snap judgements or penalizing me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRules 0 #23 October 21, 2004 does a vigil fire count in this thread?? ~ * Life Has No Rules * ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #24 October 21, 2004 QuoteIf you would actually quit skydiving because of a close call, you're in the wrong sport, my friend. Did you never hear the old saying used after getting thrown from a horse when learning to ride? Having a cypres fire means you failed to open a parachute yourself. You missed the most important issue of the sport Altitude awareness. Only an electronic device (some kind of skydiver airbag) prevented an accident. This is a very good reason to reconcider your continuation in the sport. A cypres opening is something else than falling from a horse (which will not happen to me because I hate horses) A vigil opening will not happen to me because I do not jump this device ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #25 October 21, 2004 Ya know, for those that are nervious to post your story for feer of being yelled at....Or judged. If you want, you can PM them to me, and I will post them...No one will know who sent me the PM, and I will not judge you. If you don't trust me, please send them to someone else, and have them post it. These stories and experiences are THE best tools for learning, and I would hate to have someone miss the lesson."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
