What can we do about Skyride?

[wuffo 1]

Dude, you're really the pot calling the kettle black. You sit there saying that dzo's are a bunch of whiners when they complain about skyride... and if I remember right not long ago YOU were the big whiner all bent out of shape about those mean people at Space Center.

Get over yourself

[jraf 0]

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I bet there are enough misguided skydivers to start a class action suit

You would never find a Lawyer willing to take on the case. There just isnt enough money involved.

A lawsuit (Any Lawsuit) at the federal level will take years and cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.



SDA (Arizona) filed a Suit against them over a year ago and they still are not even through the discovery phase.

I cant even imagine how much they have spent in legal fees already.

Please read this post to see what has been going on. And if nothing else, Read the Attached deposition to that post. It explains in detail exactly why people Hate Skyride.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2454579#2454579

Regarding the said deposition:

1. Interesting language: I see nothing wrong in a businessperson closely supervising his staff. Seems reasonable actually
2. The Yellow Pages issue is unclear to me. If he placed adds for his business nationwide, then kudos to him. If he has not paid for the adds, well excuse me but that seems to be a legal matter between Yellow Pages and the dude.
3. With regards to using a fictitious name: most of the outsourced call centers for Fortune 500 companies instruct their employees to use fictitious names. After all we don’t want to talk to Rajeev, Jagdesh or Preebanka. It’s their atrocious accents that tell us where we called.
4. As to the customers driving for hours and hours…please how daft can you be?
5. Misrepresentation to callers about the location of the Skydiving Center based on caller ID identification is false advertisement and can be prosecuted.
6. As to the weather…show me one DZ that says that the weather sucks when you call… .
7. The girls working at the Phone Bank apparently complained about lying to customers but did nothing about it. Hence, they really were accomplices. If they knew it was morally wrong and yet kept doing it…, please!
8. Lisa Pugh… vide above. I am pretty sure the persuasion that kept her in the job despite her moral torture had a was in form of a few delightful pieces of paper with the picture of Benjamin Franklin in the center.
9. Being a booking agent requires the consent of the service providing party. If they in fact were booking skydiving services for a certain region, then there must have been consent from local DZOs.
10. Point 21 is especially humorous: the dude complains he was only paid $30 for a jump. With all due respect, it’s a free country. If he knew that skyride was raking the hay in and he felt underpaid he should have re-negotiated.
11. All in all Jim seems to be a funny guy, but this deposition is in my opinion of little value. A disgruntled employee who has beef with former employer. My point is that if you want to do something against SkyRide…do it profesionally

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jraf 0]

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Dude, you're really the pot calling the kettle black. You sit there saying that dzo's are a bunch of whiners when they complain about skyride... and if I remember right not long ago YOU were the big whiner all bent out of shape about those mean people at Space Center.

Get over yourself

Hey you must be a lawyer for one of the DZOs. Otherwise you are just a good samaritan, and I suggest you apply for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Besides... you will notice that I have said: "don't whine unless you have done something about it. If you have done something then by all means whine!"

Then a question...

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[pilotdave 0]

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9. Being a booking agent requires the consent of the service providing party. If they in fact were booking skydiving services for a certain region, then there must have been consent from local DZOs.

They claim to be a booking agent for regions that don't have ANY dropzones, let alone participating ones. If you read up on skyride a little bit, you'll see that they have a long history of sending people to DZs that don't accept their certificates. What do they care if the customer actually gets to jump? They have their money (and don't like to give refunds).

I think I'd probably agree with you if you're thinking that their general business model, aside from the illegal parts, isn't bad. The problem is how they chose to execute it. They lie, steal, and cheat. I think they should go to prison, but what am I supposed to do? Call 911 and report them?

There's a somewhat similar type of company called 1-800-skydive. You don't see people complaining about them. I personally don't like them much either, but they have a good business model and don't use deceptive business practices to make money. It's not the idea of a skydiving booking agency that favors certain dropzones that bothers people, it's the way they actually do business.

Dave

[teason 0]

You are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

point #4 was arrogant and #9 was just plain specious.

"If they did it, they must have permission"

What's wrong with you.

I believe that the only people worth listening to are those who have an opposing view because you can learn from them.

All I've learned from your posts is that if you have a weak point of view based on assumptions and poor logic then throw in condescention and you can feel superior.

Just because you like to throw in snarky remarks to try and make others feel small does not give your arguement weight. It also makes people not want to listen to you when you do make sense.

If you're not sure what you are saying that can be interperated as arrogant, I'll point them out for you in your responses that are sure to come.

I was like you in the forums until someone pointed out how it negatively affected my side of the debate.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[wuffo 1]

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...There's a somewhat similar type of company called 1-800-skydive...

Actually there really is not anything even similar about the two. 800 skydive is a telephone network that, based on the location of the originating call, is directed straight to the closest member drop zone. So there is no "booking agent" or service involved. The founders of the 800 skydive network invited all drop zones to join, but only takes one affiliate in each geographic region. I actually think the idea behind that was brilliant.

[Remster 24]

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You are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

He is.

I's just plain ignore him.

Remster

[jraf 0]

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You are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

He is.

I's just plain ignore him.

Actually I am trying to find out what the hell is going on. The thread is 2 years old, everybody is spilling tears and there seems to be very little tangible action. Now forgive me but I fell very little remorse for whining that has not been supported by cruel, immediate and serious action.

As to being arrogant - yes I am. Arrogant but aware of what is going on and making points that are valid. I argue for sake of corrective action. Then again what do I care, whine on and this thread will be active in another 2 years with no other effect.

So far I have heard many funny stories here, from behavioral theories to weak, meaningless depositions. Not one DZO has come forth to say that a DZ is in fact a business that sustains them and their families. They want me and all others to believe they do it out of the goodness of their hearts. Now I realize that a DZ is not an oil well, but obviously you can make a half decent living out of it. And if in fact DZs are a hobby for the independently wealthy, please tell me how can I become so wealthy that my generosity will support the skydiving world.

You should listen more to people like lawrocket who is a legal professional and may bring true value to the discussion. I am a businessperson, if anyone did this to my business I would not pretend to be Mother Theresa, I would be pissed off and in pursuit of legal retribution.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[BillyVance 34]

Like someone said, 2 years into a long drawn out court case is nothing. I have seen cases involving school systems get drawn out to 25 years. It's ridiculous, but it's the way the justice system works sometimes. There are lawsuits in progress. We just have to be patient and let the system work.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[teason 0]

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Actually I am trying to find out what the hell is going on.

Your not doing a god job if you can't figure it out after almost 2000 posts.

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The thread is 2 years old, everybody is spilling tears and there seems to be very little tangible action.

The inferance "spilling tears" is designed to illicit the image that we, who talk about Skyride injustice, are mere children. An attemp to reduce the significance of our points.

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Now forgive me but I fell very little remorse for whining that has not been supported by cruel, immediate and serious action.

If you actually knew anything about the law system, you would know that it is not swift. It is obvious that your main exposure to the law has been 60 minute episodes of Matlock where southern lawer outsmarts the big city folk. (that's condescention for ya, how do you like it? pretty useless isn't it?)

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As to being arrogant - yes I am. Arrogant but aware of what is going on and making points that are valid.

Even if they are way off the rails!

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I argue for sake of corrective action.

Well that doesn't even make any sense. Critisizing what you don't know about, being confrontation and attempting to be superior does not lead to corrective action. If you think it does then that is a funny story!

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Then again what do I care, whine on and this thread will be active in another 2 years with no other effect.

Once again, you know not of what you speak. Actions have been taken in the past and actions continue to happen. But hey, if it contradict what you think, I gues it aint valid huh?

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So far I have heard many funny stories here, from behavioral theories to weak, meaningless depositions.

Oh I love that one, the first part was directed a meI actually thought you were a real businessman and attempted to have a conversation that someone in business would understand and there fore create an actual dialogue. I should've known when you didn't respond that you could understand the concepts. By calling a business stradegy a "funny story" the attempt is made to infer that my business is run with no real accumin but on some fantastic whimsy.
But critcizing the Behavioural approach, you have just shown that you know little about business management. The Hawthorne Studies, by the way, are some of the most well known. I put that in because you implied you knew something about business and even a first year management student would know about the Hawthorne studies.
Clearly shows you don't know as much as you claim.

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Not one DZO has come forth to say that a DZ is in fact a business that sustains them and their families.

Ok, I make my living off of skydiving happy now? I thought that went with out saying. I apologize for thinking that you "got it". The post talking about this "behavioural theory" talk about organizational goals.
Do you know what organizational goals are?
hmmmm? businessman? hmmmm?
A non-profit company's goal are generally to be financially viable.
maybe you should talk to business consultant. you seem to need one. And if you are one, I weep for the companies you work for.
If you can't figure out why a business benifits from having staff and why a DZ benifits from regulars, then you have major problems grasping elementary concepts.

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They want me and all others to believe they do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Like I said before, your observations are right off the rails. Do you have any idea how dumb you sound?

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Now I realize that a DZ is not an oil well, but obviously you can make a half decent living out of it. And if in fact DZs are a hobby for the independently wealthy, please tell me how can I become so wealthy that my generosity will support the skydiving world.

Once again, wonderful, wonderful sarcasm, the last refuge of a weak view point.. By the way, the US has 33000 skydivers. Canada was less than 3000. You might want to get someone to explain the term economies of scale to you. It's what makes DZs thrive in some regions and struggle in others. Your posts assuming that all DZs have turbines and scores of regulars throwing money at them demonstrates a very clear lack of understanding. The type that makes the rest of us shake our heads.

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You should listen more to people like lawrocket who is a legal professional and may bring true value to the discussion. I am a businessperson, if anyone did this to my business I would not pretend to be Mother Theresa, I would be pissed off and in pursuit of legal retribution.

Just so you know, most of us have sought legal consul. That's why its odd when you don't believe what we tell you. But it seems that if reality contradict what you have to say, then reality is wrong.

Your not a business person. If you were, you'd be under from mismanagement so fast your pants would spin! (although some businesses have thrived inspite of the incompetancy of some owners/managers. you may be in that catagory)
You no nothing of management approaches, you know nothing about business cost and you know nothing of how the law functions. You also put more weight on your assumptions than what people who have had experience tell you.

If you have aspirations of business, may I suggest AmWay. You seem to have difficulty grasping even the simplest of business concepts.

You clearly don't know anywhere near as much as you think you know. That's sad. You seek the truth and know cling to your version of it!

I quietly await you inflamatory, argumentative condescending remarks that drip with sarcasm and ultimatly become socratic irony.

I'll also wait while you look up socratic irony.

Oh, I'll be flying up to Newfoundland (that's a place) so I won't be able to enjoy the "blah blah whine blah blah sue, blah blah businessman"

But rest assured, I will enjoy your attempt to cut to the quick when I get back.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jraf 0]

One of the things that I was trained in while attending middle school was proper spelling.

Once you have mastered that skill, and that of clear thinking in situations of stress, please let me tell you why I decided to post in this forum at all:

It is a thread that is two years old. Given even the most basic analysis of the facts stated, one can come to the conclusion that there was nor real change of action. It appears that aside from the fact that there is no unified DZO approach to the Skyride dilemma there are several other problems here.

If you look at your basic gap analysis (really rudimentary but effective tool) you will answer the following questions:
-Where am I?
-Where do I want to be?
-What corrective actions need to be taken to put me where I in fact want to be?

Having read through this thread I come to the conclusion that none of the above questions have been addressed. Having conducted your initial gap analysis you then should treat it as a dynamic model and revisit the analysis at set intervals to see what effect have your actions had.

This is obviously not the reality of the Skyride situation. Someone has filed suit somewhere and now is waiting for Godot instead or revisiting their approach and taking corrective action. Please, let me tell you that there always is something that can be done better, in a more thorough way that will make things better for you.

As to the management aspect of DZ operations I agree that the behavioral approach is an interesting topic. In the author’s humble opinion, it is only one of the many tools to be used when analyzing the operation from a holistic point of view. Let me give you an example:
- Have you analyzed the running costs of a Cessna vs. other available jump ships?
- Have you analyzed your peak times and looked at leasing a different plane for those periods?
- Have you reviewed your employment model and looked into attracting more talent during peak season and optimizing existing work force?

I could ask you hundreds more of these questions. I could create a methodology for DZ approach… and so on, and so forth. Last but not least: are you a non profit club or a for profit business?

I understand that many might find my comments annoying. I am not known as the most likeable guy in the world. I am arrogant and self elitist. I am cold and there is not a fiber of compassion in my body. I look at problems, analyze EVERY aspect and take corrective action. No emotions, just business.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I disagree that nothing has been done.Many DZOs have improved their advertising and the Skyride crap in many instances is not the first think to pop up on a web search.The public is more aware of the practices of Skyride,Thrill Planet and the other names(that escape me at the moment) that are used to confuse the consumer.
As to weather or not this thread has done any good,I believe it has.It has made people aware of what Skyride is and kept it toward the front of their minds not forgotten.Which is how Ben and Cary started and grew this business,forgotten and working in the shadows.
As for your last sentence.If that is true then just fix it and everyone will love you.

[Elisha 1]

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I understand that many might find my comments annoying. I am not known as the most likeable guy in the world. I am arrogant and self elitist. I am cold and there is not a fiber of compassion in my body. I look at problems, analyze EVERY aspect and take corrective action. No emotions, just business.

Well, you sound like a very miserable person then. Have a nice life.

[teason 0]

oooh, wondered when you'd hit the spelling problem I have. It's actually dyslexia. I have to read every line several times to see if I have screwed it up and still screw it up anyway. Large posts are extremely difficult for me.

That, by the way, is not a whine but a mere statement of fact.

I'm proud that I worked hard to over come a problem that a person like you would redicule me for. Just something I have to deal with.

By the way, you actually posted some good thoughts.
Too bad you already turned off others with previous ones, could've made for good dialogue.

Anyhoo, the gap analysis is best used in the controling function of management to ensure that a given performance is up to snuff. It leads back into the planning function as planning should never present a static solution. This thread was kinda based on

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-What corrective actions need to be taken to put me where I in fact want to be?

so I'm not quite sure what point you are making.

Your comment on analysizing other aspects of the DZ is fair. You gave an example of a management science approach. I must have used that approach to know the reality of load profitability.
Unfortunately you must see the business as a system. Change one part of the organization and it will affect another. That is what I tried to convey when I talked about how upjumper pricing can affect staffing, image and even jumper retention. Systems expands your perspective and can help you avert danger.

As for highering outside talent, I have been struggling with two major hurdles; commitment and work Visas (the Canadian market is far too small).
Another problem also comes in the form of obtaining new instructor rating for such staff as they would not have local Governing body ratings.
The solutions to these problems are already in motion in the organization and leading functions.

There is always more going on than what you see.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[kallend 1,623]

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...So you condone deceptive advertizing, theft, fraud and copyright infringement?

Oh c'mon, John...you're above this type of lame "put words in his mouth" baiting.

No I'm not.

It not what he said, or words in his mouth. It's what Skyride does, and he condones it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jraf 0]

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...So you condone deceptive advertizing, theft, fraud and copyright infringement?

Oh c'mon, John...you're above this type of lame "put words in his mouth" baiting.

No I'm not.

It not what he said, or words in his mouth. It's what Skyride does, and he condones it.

You are wrong. To condone it I would have to be paid by Skyride. As they are not paying me, fuck them.

Besides I don't discriminate - I hate everybody equally!

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[teason 0]

I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused confused.

Are you saying condonation can only happen when there is an exchange of money? If so, maybe you're thinking of some other word or condone doesn't mean what you think it means.

Or maybe you mean that you publicly condone things when you have been paid to.

But that is not called condonation, it is called endorsement, not condone as you can condone something being quiet. While endorsment does not require monetary exchange, you would be fair to say you would not endorse something without money.

At any rate, you comment makes no sense.

So, here someone said that you condone their actions, I say that your posts can be constude that way, for example, you advocated the use of materials and images of other businesses is they had not registered the material in question.
I think you were confusing registering trademarks and business names with copywrites, but condonation was inferred on the copywrite violation issue and especially with your comments on the court transcript where categorically disregard 12 different points.
The disregard of objectionable action is condonation whether or not you think it is objectionable is not relevant. I'm sure skyride would see anything they do as objectionable either.

You do know we can look at old posts, right?

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jraf 0]

con·do·na·tion
Pronunciation: "kän-d&-'nA-sh&n, -dO-
Function: noun
: implied pardon of an offense by treating the offender as if it had not been committed

Now lets look at condone:

con·done
Pronunciation: k&n-'dOn
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): con·doned; con·don·ing
Etymology: Latin condonare to absolve, from com- + donare to give -- more at DONATION
: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless
When you look at the difference (slight in pronunciation but great in meaning) you will come to the conclusion that dyslexia is the least of your problems. As a remedy for dyslexia I do suggest a spelling tool on your computer. When it comes to the misuse of the fine English language…, there is nor remedy. That is crime and you should be hung and quartered for it.

As you have nothing new or creative to add, I now leave this thread to revisit it in another two years. Happy New Year!

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[sundevil777 93]

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When you look at the difference (slight in pronunciation but great in meaning)

I completely disagree. From same root word, same root meaning applied to different parts of speech..

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[icevideot 0]

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In Reply To
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When you look at the difference (slight in pronunciation but great in meaning)

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I completely disagree. From same root word, same root meaning applied to different parts of speech..

I agree with sundevil777. Virtually same meaning. You can lie to us but don't lie to yourself. It is kind of sad really.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[strop45 0]

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I agree with sundevil777. Virtually same meaning. You can lie to us but don't lie to yourself. It is kind of sad really.

Agreed 100%, from the Oxford English dictionary
Condone :verb accept or forgive derivatives condonation - noun

jraf arguments on english are as persuasive as his arguments on business, DZ operation, low pull etc etc...

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[sundevil777 93]

Perhaps condonation is being confused with condemnation.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[popsjumper 2]

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Oh c'mon, John...you're above this type of lame "put words in his mouth" baiting.

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No I'm not.

I stand corrected.

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It not what he said, or words in his mouth. It's what Skyride does, and he condones it.

I didn't see anything that indicated he condoned Skyride or their business practices.


On a side note to everyone:
It's funny how easily a speaker/writer's tone can distract the listener/reader away from the content of what's being said/written. Emotions close the ears and open the mouth...not a good combination.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[icevideot 0]

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It's funny how easily a speaker/writer's tone can distract the listener/reader away from the content of what's being said/written. Emotions close the ears and open the mouth...not a good combination.

I only said that condone and condonation do not have vastly different meanings as jraf stated.

As for his tone, well if you openly state that many people are not going to like what you are saying because you don't agree, people who don't bother reading your statements will assume you are right. Why wade through all of those $2 words is he summed it up like that?

He also attacked his own character and declared himself to be rather dispicable. I don't know him so I can't really defend him there either.

Happy Christmas Eve everybody.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[skinnyshrek 0]

He also attacked his own character and declared himself to be rather dispicable. I don't know him so I can't really defend him there either.

For some reason, that statement made me laugh. At least jraf brought the thread back for a week or so.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?