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ChasingBlueSky

What can we do about Skyride?

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Skydiving is all about having fun and being free. What Ben and Cary started is a great business idea. No-one is disputing that. What sucks is it turned into greeg and lots of it.. When you think of it they are no different to a travel agent.. The only difference is with a travel agent you know what you are getting up front. You don't show up to the flight and get well you can reach your destination faster if you pay X amount of dollars etc etc etc. Wit hall the bad business practices thats bad. But the final straw for me is stealing Chris Martins Number. Now that's fucking low. I know you guys have to make a living and good luck to you but come on you know what these guys are all about. Deep down you have to question your morals. Do you all sleep good at night working for these sellfish self centered fucks>:(
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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Just to clarify, I don't make my living skydiving. I do make myself very happy skydiving and I get to meet some of the greatest people I have ever known hanging out at various DZs.

Some of my friends are getting hurt in all this and that really saddens me. I don't dispute that there may have been wrong doing and other people got hurt too. I feel bad about anybody getting hurt. I guess I am a wimp, but there it is.

Frankly, I don't know the truth. I don't think the truth is all black and white. For instance, if you work at ASC are you bad, and if you don't are you good? Am I bad if I jump at ASC? If I jump at Skydive AZ am I good? By the way, I have, and I love that place. Should I check the history of everybody that worked at every DZ I jump at? Of course not.

It boils down to this: (1) is it safe to jump? (2) am I going to have fun? (3) am I going to meet and jump with some cool people? Those are my priorities. USPA and DZ.com have given me some more stuff to think about, but in the end, my priorities are not likely to change.

And that is all I have to say. Thanks for discussing with me. See you next time I jump at the Farm, which is a really cool place too. Wild blues...
qoq

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What Ben and Cary started is a great business idea. No-one is disputing that.



I would dispute that. A great business idea is one in which both people and businesses benefit without ANY deception. Even taking out all of the deceptive business practices, there is the basic business plan of telling whuffos that a tandem costs $X. When they show up and see it posted for $Y, they start asking questions, because Y < X. That leads to bad feelings about skydiving, and is bad for the sport and the industry of skydiving. It certainly makes things tough on the manifest people.

I agree with your analogy of a travel agent. This happens in nearly every market, resellers marking up profit. It makes sense, considering advertising costs, point-of-sale costs, etc. But in other industries, the consumer doesn't see the markup. If the DZs that openly support skyride don't post their rates, then the consumer never knows, and all is well. But that hasn't happened.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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Yes i know that what they do is fucked up. The idea is a good one though if it was done in a way without no lies and deceit.
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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Check out http://www.auburnskydiving.com Makes you think there's a DZ in Auburn, AL especially with an Auburn area phone number. It's funny that when you call the number you are talking to people at Atlanta Skydiving Center (Adventure Skydiving Center) west of the Atlanta airport.



I know Chuck Blue had to have had a fit over that. It's time to squash those two little shits in Cedartown. >:(
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Thank god it's about time someone stepped up to the plate. Big ups to skydive Arizona, I hope that this will be the end for skyride.



As I understand it this suit if won by Skydive Arizona, the defendants would be required to repay damages by three fold. That said, how much actual damage SDAZ can “prove” is going to be interesting. It may amount to a moral victory, and cause Skyride to cease and desist within the state of Arizona? I’ve heard estimates of $100,000 in legal fees as a starting point to pursue the suit; I could see the damages being significantly less than that. Might Skyride be forced to pay both side legal fees? Will this suit if won by SDAZ set precedent and make it easier (cheaper) to be pursued within other states? Attorneys care to speculate?

I defiantly do not mean to imply that Larry shouldn’t be pursuing his law suit; I actually admire him more for doing it!!!

Also, anyone who thinks they are not affected by this whole thing may eventually wake up to smell some “new coffee”. I’d heard that the Skyride boys were looking at opening/buying a DZ in Missouri. If they do, I’d also bet that they would do all within their power to dominate the state, and force other DZs out. Envision that scenario happening in your state, and maybe the whole issue strikes just a little closer to home. Could just be that the little family DZ will go the way of the family farm, and the buggy whip industry.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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It's not me that was pissed about that; it was my far-meaner dad.



Oops, it WAS your dad I was thinking of, I got the names mixed up! :$ Sorry!

Yeah, nobody messes with Buddy Blue, at least not in person! :P
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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it is not our place to judge there business practices butttt

anyone that would steal from a dead jumpers family deserves inappropriate comment removed by slotperfect

jumpers MUST respect each outher and be HONEST to each outher
this great sport deserves no less than that
now let the courts decide

as for the honest folks thet live,stay,jump at ASC come on over across the street and jump at the farm

what can ben and carrey do now..bann you from ASC


..
59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

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Had they done things just a "little bit" differently they could have had a nice little side income for the rest of their lives, they could have also been the roll models for first jump marketing. I question what happened in those early days. I wonder about the exact moment a great idea went so horribly wrong.

So, I offer you the following play, in one act . . .

B- "We could be like travel agents."

C- "Sounds alright, but how do we make money?"

B- "Well, I suppose the same way; we get a small percentage back from the drop zones."

C- "Why would a guy looking for a first jump not just look in the Yellow Pages like we did?"

B- "Kids today don't use "books" where you been for Christsakes, it’s the internet age. We can market tandems the same way flowers get sold. The Yellow Pages are too expensive but we can put up websites for every city and then direct the people to the nearest drop zone . . ."

C- "So, if we sold like a hundred tandems in a weekend we'd clear, what, $500?"

B- "Yeah, and basically, just for answering the phone, but why a 100 tandems? Suppose we sold 500, or a thousand . . . !"

C- "Hey, you know . . . if we just added ten dollars to the top, and took that, the DZOs would be happier and we'd double our income. You know how people are after a tandem, they aren't going to miss a few extra bucks."

B- "Right and we might even be able to work a deal with certain drop zones and then cash in on both ends."

C- "What's the internet thing going to cost us?"

B- "There are all kinds of ways of working that. We can buy a few popular skydiving related domain names that aren't already taken for cheap, then we can use pointers and other gimmicks so when someone hits a Skyride link the local looking banner comes up. They leave their credit card number and bippity bopbity its money in the bank. And look here, I already mocked up a webpage."

C- "Wow, that looks really pro, Skyride, that's a cool name, where'd you get the neat tandem picture?"

B- "I lifted it right off the wall of the Perris Bombshelter one night."

C- "You know, I can see it now, drop zones have never marketed tandems correctly. There should be a menu of services like for a bigger aircraft, or the sunset load upgrade, or hey, how about some weather insurance, man, there's all kinds of angles to this . . ."

B- "And look at this travel agent's brochure. These guys are like the freaking phone company, here look, they even charge you a "port" fee . . .?"

Curtains . . .

NickD :)BASE 194

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Proving damages is, as you write, very difficult. The could force the defendents to list the number of vouchers sold to Arizona residents over the past X years, but then someone has to turn that into dollars lost.

But they can potentially get their legal fees and get the similar sounding web domains, and force Skyride to shut down all the fictitious Skydive Mesa type sites.

Much of the complaint listed their other bad business practices (like stealing teason's site, and grabbing the 800 number, as well as more fictitious sites), but the plaintiff wasn't damaged by those actions, so I'm not sure what happens there. But SDA winning would give everyone else the blueprint to join in, so the defendents might see the light and change ahead of time.

With the bad press of late, have any Skyride members dropped out of the network? If I were a DZO I'd be a bit worried about letting accounts receivable grow too big- might not get paid for all those vouchers.

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You don't necesarily need to prove damages under the Lanham Act. Damages are implied. Proving damages isn't the issue. If you prove the unfair competition, damages are implied. From what I can see, proving these allegations will be quite easy.

My concern is that the lawsuit tends to wander all over the map. It seems like they tried to get everything into the one suit. I would have thought the suit would have been more targetted. I'm not sure what the Skydive Green Bay deception has to do with the State of Arizona, for example.

No, I'm not a lawyer. But I did read Groklaw while staying at the Holliday Inn Express last night.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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You don't necesarily need to prove damages under the Lanham Act. Damages are implied. Proving damages isn't the issue. If you prove the unfair competition, damages are implied. From what I can see, proving these allegations will be quite easy.

My concern is that the lawsuit tends to wander all over the map. It seems like they tried to get everything into the one suit. I would have thought the suit would have been more targetted. I'm not sure what the Skydive Green Bay deception has to do with the State of Arizona, for example.



Well, it does show a pattern of deceptive behavior.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Had they done things just a "little bit" differently they could have had a nice little side income for the rest of their lives, they could have also been the roll models for first jump marketing. I question what happened in those early days. I wonder about the exact moment a great idea went so horribly wrong...

Curtains . . .

NickD :)BASE 194



That was fun, one point you're missing in the equation is that not every voucher/gift certificate is redeemed. If they were extremely up front with the no refund policy, it wouldn't be a problem. I've heard various percentages thrown out as to how many gift certificates are not redeemed, and that money is all theirs to keep!

So in a perfect world, they would have "taken" a little on both sides, and kept every bit of the non redeemed certificate money. For the most part "everyone goes home in a limousine", save a few people who changed their mind and were upset about the refund policy (which they were informed of up front)

I sell gift certificates at my DZ. I'm not a big proponent of it, we make it extremely clear that they are not refundable, suggest alternatives, etc. Some people simply insist that they have to have the gift certificate so we sell them. Every year we also get the "sob story", someone was diagnosed with some horrible disease and now can't jump, the intended jumper just refuses to jump and now they can't buy food or shoes for the kids because they spent the money on a skydive that nobody wants, etc (these are actual examples). And every year we refund a couple of them anyway.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Some of my friends are getting hurt in all this and that really saddens me. I don't dispute that there may have been wrong doing and other people got hurt too. I feel bad about anybody getting hurt. I guess I am a wimp, but there it is.



DZ.com, SDAZ, or anyone taking legal action against Skyride have nothing to due with hurting your friends. This is something that has been going on for years and most in the sport knew about it. In fact, long before you were in the sport there was an article in Skydiving about ASC advertising only on a local level to steal business from the surrounding states. Most of this discussion took place on rec.sky, and a good portion of us in this thread spoke up about it back then. It wasn't until this became something that impacted the entire sport that more got involved.

As said above, what was happening out of ASC was not a secret to anyone. Those that stayed there despite that knowledge only have themselves to blame for their decisions. It's been said for over a year now that legal action WAS coming. It's been known for close to two years that official requests to stop deceptive practices have been issued to Skyride and the owners. This was in Parachutist, Skydiving, Rec.Sky, the USPA meetings, and DZ.com.

Many have left ASC because they saw the greed and how it was having a negative impact. They also realized that when the axe came down it would hit them. Those that continued to accept Skyride certificates and those that worked for them only helped bring this issue to where we are at right now.

Legal action could have been avoided if B&C did the right thing and ran an ethical company (they had their chance but chose otherwise and it seems they find new limits to how far they will go each year), or if the community helped cut off their cash flow.

Your friends may have a negative impact from this - but how many other 'friends' in this industry have already suffered losses?
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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