What can we do about Skyride?

[misskriss 0]

Quote

He also attacked his own character and declared himself to be rather dispicable. I don't know him so I can't really defend him there either.

I know him and let me tell you, it's true. Every last word is true and it gets worse when there is a full moon out. But he did watch Sound of Music with me last night. The whole thing... four hours worth of raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens. Maybe he's not all that bad.

(Sorry babes... I can't help myself... you know --since you lead such a sad and miserable life and all.)

[teason 0]

Heh, that's funny.

There's an old saying that if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, you can baffle 'em with bullshit.

Nice going on doing an internet search on the word, I liked that.
Here's on from a dictionary search. You can find this on dictionary.com
con·do·na·tion /ˌkɒndoʊˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-doh-ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
the act of condoning[/]; the overlooking or implied forgiving of an offense.

But what do I know, I'm facing a firing squad tomorrow on my use of language.

By the way, to critcize my use of language and say "there is nor remedy" ... Priceless!
I won't bug you anymore, you seem to be getting a bit emotional.

Anyway, thanks for the fun banter and bringing this thread back to life, Merry Christmas and a nondenominational celebration to all

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[celeste 0]

[bump]
thanks :)

[skydived19006 4]

Hey, maybe we could get USPA to put up a page on MySpace to increase web presence in an effort to counter the 1000 Skyride sites!

http://www.uspa.org/news/index.htm#010207

That or they could spend a couple of hours doing some very simple web site optimization, so they get top 3 FREE search results in any search containing any form of the word skydive! Now, where have I been hearing that idea for the last 2 years? Then, this idea didn't origionate with Chris Needles, so it's not worth pursuing (regardless BOD and membership input).

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Programmer 0]

Skyride does more than just web site optimization. They use meta tags with the name of competing drop zones to get to the top of a GOOGLE search along with the legitimate holder of the name. That's got to be confusing to people looking for a place to do their first tandem.

[Mr17Hz 1]

Quote

Skyride does more than just web site optimization. They use meta tags with the name of competing drop zones to get to the top of a GOOGLE search along with the legitimate holder of the name. That's got to be confusing to people looking for a place to do their first tandem.

FYI, websites using deceptive practices can be reported to google and google will reasearch the claim and remove those sites from all search results perminatly. I had thought about doing this myself, however as a newly formed corporate entity that will be entering into a realm that could be considered competition against skyride, I felt that it was in my best interest not to. Of course, if it is a legitimate complaint and made by someone who has no competing interests...

Here is the link:
http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[PhreeZone 15]

I reported over 30 of them 2 years ago when this first appeared but Google never even bothered to contact me for details or do anything about those sites.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Gary73 8]

The Atlanta channel 5 FOX News I-Team just aired a followup to the investigation they did last year. You can view it on their Web site:

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2034603&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.1.1

The contents won't surprise anyone who's familiar with that operation.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

The Atlanta channel 5 FOX News I-Team just aired a followup to the investigation they did last year. You can view it on their Web site:

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2034603&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.1.1

The contents won't surprise anyone who's familiar with that operation.

So can you summarize the story? It's not easy to lipread the news anchor without closed captions...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[matthewcline 0]

i-team says - Skyride still operates as they always have, over booking lying refusing to give refunds and that the GA State is working an investigation. Plus the I-team is getting complaints even the day of the follow up airing from across the country. They also find that skyride only gives 100% refunds if the media or law is brought in to help get the refunds from skyride.

Former employees say - they got fired after refusing to continue to lie for skyride and that they are pushed to sell, over book, lie using the weather as the excuse and not give back money.

Ben says - (not on camera) they are all lying.

Thats pretty much it.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[vpozzoli 0]

Quote

Quote

Skyride does more than just web site optimization. They use meta tags with the name of competing drop zones to get to the top of a GOOGLE search along with the legitimate holder of the name. That's got to be confusing to people looking for a place to do their first tandem.

FYI, websites using deceptive practices can be reported to google and google will reasearch the claim and remove those sites from all search results perminatly. I had thought about doing this myself, however as a newly formed corporate entity that will be entering into a realm that could be considered competition against skyride, I felt that it was in my best interest not to. Of course, if it is a legitimate complaint and made by someone who has no competing interests...

Here is the link:
http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html

I doubt that if there isn't any money involved (i.e. it's not a sponsored link) they will spend any time even investigating it.
If they took money for it and you think that the entry damages your businnes then maybe they might look into it, on the off chance that if you sue the offending party you might try to drag them into the lawsuit as well.

After all they are providing a free service, so watcha complaining about?

Cheers,

Vale

[Programmer 0]

Well, this is discouraging. The right side of the Dropzone.com homepage has "Ads by Google Local Sky Diving" that points to an online local search for skydiving in the Birmingham area. That link leads to an ad for Adventure Sport Skydiving "serving your area - Birmingham 35203" with a local phone number, 205-949-1560.
A reverse lookup on Anywho shows 205-949-1560 registered to Adventure Sport Skydiving and Skyride Tuscaloosa and gives an address of 900 Appalachee St. Birmingham, Alabama.
The building at 900 Appalachee is a Deltacom switching station - a low concrete building with no windows surrounded by a chain link fence topped by razor wire. Not likely you could get your money back if you booked a tandem with these guys and were dissappointed with the service.

[PhreeZone 15]

Post the link in the Bugs or suggestions fourm and it will be blocked on D.com if it is found to be a spoofed website.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Programmer 0]

It's not spoofed. It's a legitimate link to a skyride website.

[PhreeZone 15]

Post the ad and the link if you could and it will be looked at.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Programmer 0]

I'm not sure how to post the link, but if you go to the Dropzone.com home page, under Ads by Google on the right side about halfway down and click on Local Sky Diving, you get sent to www.local.com and, for me, sky diving and Birmingham, AL are plugged in for the search.
You can probably see the same thing if you go to www.local.com and enter sky diving for what and Birmingham, AL for where. The results page has sponsored links for Perris and Skydive Chicago, then results for Adventure Sport Skydiving and Skyride Tuscaloosa, then a lot of results for outdoor stores and stuff. USPA dropzones in Alabama aren't listed in the first 5 pages of results. The distances from Birmingham on the Google results page put the two skyride websites at the top of the list, but I can assure you there's not a dropzone 2.2 miles from downtown Birmingham.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

The distances from Birmingham on the Google results page put the two skyride websites at the top of the list, but I can assure you there's not a dropzone 2.2 miles from downtown Birmingham.

Even 22 miles would have been a stretch!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[PhreeZone 15]

Ahh, I see you've fallen victim to the issue that consumers are experiencing also. The Local.com site has Google ads on it also and from there they link to other sites thay pay them. They also used the local phone listings it seems to populate their database.

The local DZ's have not advertised correctly or are not paying google enough to place their ads higher then the Skyride Ads.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[pilotdave 0]

Skyride's alter ego Thrillplanet "partners with" E! Channel:

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/26725005cp.shtml

Dave

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

Skyride's alter ego Thrillplanet "partners with" E! Channel:

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/26725005cp.shtml

Dave

Okay, folks...long-ass post ahead. I've been doing some research for a bit now, and I have a few things I think should be said. The first thing to do with any situation of this sort, be it business or otherwise, is to identify the problem. So here goes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Skyride is succeeding - in spite of the occasional bad press, and in spite of their shady business tactics - because they're utilizing GREAT marketing techniques, and because they're selling a better product. Asking why they're doing so well is almost akin to asking why people go to Home Depot rather than their tiny local hardware store. For one - the person knows they can find what they need at HD, whereas the mom n' pops store might not have it. Additionally, Home Depot's advertising materials are so good that they've synonymized themselves with "home improvement," so when a person thinks of where to go to get supplies, the bright orange logo naturally pops into their head.

(All of this is not to say that HD is a shady company - I like 'em, myself. But I see the analogy).

Skyride's materials are top-notch. Though they utilize some unscrupulous SEO (search-engine optimization) techniques, their websites constantly rank high in Google, and they constantly look better than a lot of USPA-member websites. Potential whuffo customers see the perceived value, think, "I'm putting my life in the hands of these people," and tend to go with the one that looks more professional.

There have been a number of discussions about trying to outbid them for keywords, etc, etc, on this thread...and it's my opinion that doing so will just cost the bidders a lot of money, and not really accomplish anything. The fact that Googling "Los Angeles skydiving" yields Skyride pages for 6 of the first 10 free results says it all. Even if Skyride doesn't do paid search ads (they do), their sites are still better-optimized than most sites of dropzones around Los Angeles, and are thus showing up at the top of the listings. Until legit dropzones start optimizing their pages & building better websites, skyride is still going to get more website traffic.

Additionally, Skyride is doing what all well-marketed companies do: they're leveraging the media in their favor. They're getting great national press by partnering up with people like E! Networks. How can they do that? Because they spin their product to make it sound more exciting & convenient. Think about it - they're partnering with hotels for a Valentine's Day promotion. They're making it easier for people to have an exciting experience (seemingly...until the couple actually arrives for their jump and figures out the sham). If I didn't know any better, I'd go with them, too.

Okay. That's my assessment of the situation:

1) Skyride is doing great with their marketing. They're building a brand for themselves, with top-quality advertising materials and SEO'd websites.

2) Skyride is offering a product that's more attractive to consumers...and they're partnering with the media to gain more exposure and grow their business.


Since this post is already getting long (and lots of you are already asleep after I got all long-winded like I do), I'll go ahead and post it...then type up my thoughts on possible solutions in another post.

Skies,
KC

Signatures are the new black.

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

Okay. That's my assessment of the situation:

1) Skyride is doing great with their marketing. They're building a brand for themselves, with top-quality advertising materials and SEO'd websites.

2) Skyride is offering a product that's more attractive to consumers...and they're partnering with the media to gain more exposure and grow their business.

Alright. Back to it. Above was my view of the problem (aside from the fact that Skyride is screwing people, making our community look bad, and keeping people from experiencing this sport we all love so much. All of those things are part of the problem - but they're not something tangible we can do something about. The two things I quoted above hopefully are). So...what can we do about it?

I'll take these one at a time.

1) Skyride's great marketing.
Okay, there are 2 things that can be done about this:

a) Help your local DZ make its site better-optimized to show up on Google. If you have a friend who designs for the web, get them into it. Technology has changed, and table-based designs from yesterday just don't cut it anymore (and when they do cut it, they at least look like they weren't thrown together in FrontPage.) Find a way to make your DZ's marketing look like they spent a million dollars. It'll pay off. First impressions are hard ones to shake, once they're made. Best to make it good from the beginning.

b) Report Skyride's violations of Google's terms of service to Google. Skyride is implementing some "black hat" SEO techniques...which are things Google has banned. If Google finds out about it, they can be booted from Google's index. (It happened to BMW at one point, so I'm fairly certain it can happen to Skyride).

The issue:
The most egregious use of deceptive SEO on Skyride's part comes from the links at the bottom of the page. Back to the Southern California example, they have links that read "Skydive San Diego," "Perris Valley Skydiving," etc at the bottom...but when clicked, they only redirect you to another unrelated page within the Skyride site. What they're doing is called (among other names) "keyword seeding" - they're placing keywords that people might search for onto their webpage, in order to fool the search engines' webcrawlers into associating their sites with those keywords.

The result is that when someone Google's "perris skydiving," for example, Skyride's pages also show up in the listings, due to the keywords being on their page. This is deceptive, and it's the type of thing that Google prohibits.

(In another example, if you Google "Des Moines skydiving" & click the first page that comes up (a Skyride page), the links at the bottom of the site's pages are less-deceptive...but still redirect to within the site, and thus are still there to deceptively show keywords to Google's webcrawlers. Again, it violates Google's terms of service, and they could be banned for it unless they shape up.)

-------------------

How to let Google know about it:

Unknown to most users, Google actually has a Spam Result Reporter at http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html. It's the place to go to let Google know when you find something deceptive on a website you found through Google. You have to enter the search query you made, the page of results that came up in Google, and the offending link...and they'll (supposedly) investigate it.

If each of us just takes a moment to Google "____ skydiving", where ___ is a city or state near you, and report the Skyride links, Google might take a look at them. In the notes, simply state something like "The links at the bottom of the page look like they're only there to promote keywords, because they don't take me outside of the site, even when it seems like it's an outside link."

I've already reported the links from a "Los Angeles skydiving" search...but that doesn't mean that other people doing it won't further encourage Google to take a look. (Incidentally, did you know that Skydive Sacramento is the "closest skydiving center to Los Angeles"? http://www.skydivesacramento.com Neither did I.)

I should note, however, that complaining to Google about Skyride being "scam artists," or about them not having a dropzone in the place they mention, will do no good. That's not against Google's Terms of Service...but deceptive keyword placement is.

Ethically, I don't think all of us doing this is an objectionable practice in any way. Sure, our motive may be that we don't like Skyride's shady dealings, but this is not a concerted effort to try and bring down a company through sleight of hand...it's just a group of users following the rules & letting Google know that a site with a very high Google PageRank is obtaining that result by "cheating." Skyride is breaking the rules here, and Google should know about it & take appropriate action.

If the deceptive SEO practices can be eliminated, then some other dropzones might have a chance at getting into the top search slot for a given query.

Next up:
2) Skyride's (seemingly-)better product & media alliances.

This is where it gets much more interesting.

...but I'll leave that one be, for now. I'll let you all digest. Again, apologies for the wordiness on a somewhat-boring topic...

KC

[wildblue 4]

Quote

Skyride's great marketing.

It's not great marketing. It's bullshit, frustrating, deceptive crap. They have 3 different websites for a single city in Florida. If you call, they try to send you 600 miles away when the nearest dz is actually about 60. Put yourself in a first-time jumpers shoes.

Actually, their bullshit even looks bad to non-jumpers -- I'm planning on visiting some friend and family in Florida, and one of them wrote and said "Hey! There's actually a dropzone right here, we can come watch you jump!" A few days later I looked at it and it was a Skyride site... had to tell them "No, there's not really, we'll still have to go a couple hours out of town.

I really don't see how anyone can defend their 'business model' - complete lies are not a business model.

Have they at least stopped stealing everyone's websites designs and pictures?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[popsjumper 2]

I submitted one for google search "Skydive Georgia"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

Quote

Skyride's great marketing.

It's not great marketing. It's bullshit, frustrating, deceptive crap.

Couple of points here to keep in mind, since emotions seem to be running high in this topic again -

To clarify, I never said their marketing was ethical - only that it was good. A lot of people selling shams have very good marketing. Snake-oil salesmen have used that technique ince before the beginning of time, it seems - wow them with professional-looking advertising, take their money, and run before they come back looking for you with a shotgun.

Skyride seems to have updated that model for the new millenium.

Quote

They have 3 different websites for a single city in Florida. If you call, they try to send you 600 miles away when the nearest dz is actually about 60. Put yourself in a first-time jumpers shoes.

Actually, their bullshit even looks bad to non-jumpers -- I'm planning on visiting some friend and family in Florida, and one of them wrote and said "Hey! There's actually a dropzone right here, we can come watch you jump!" A few days later I looked at it and it was a Skyride site... had to tell them "No, there's not really, we'll still have to go a couple hours out of town.

I am putting myself in the first-time jumper's shoes. When I go looking to do a "high risk" sport, I'm going to look on the web, find the one that looks the most professional, and then call them up. Why? Because as someone who doesn't know anything about GA or skydiving operations, I don't know what I need.

All I know is I want to make a skydive at the place that seems safest. Or most convenient. And Skyride's websites seem like they're both. The websites also appear to have a lot more money put into them than many DZ websites...which translates into perceived value for the customer. "Therefore," thinks the whuffo, "they must have the money to put into their planes and gear to keep them safe."

The point I'm trying to make is this: good marketing sells & builds awareness. Its purpose is to do nothing more. Obviously, Skyride's marketing is good...or at least better than the legit dropzone you were referring to above. As illustrated by your point, the non-jumpers knew about the Skyride "dropzone," whereas they had no idea of the real DZ nearby. (In Florida, no less, where there seem to be about as many DZ's as there are Chevron stations. ) Since people are aware of it, Skyride has marketed itself better.

That's what I was trying to point out: if a DZ within 60 miles is getting less attention than a Skyride website, then obviously the legitimate DZ has some work to do. Nevermind that Skyride's business model is about deceiving the customer - if you have a better product, though it's up to the customer to do their due diligence, it's ultimately up to YOU as a business owner to let people know you're there, and you're better. (And for the government to enforce fraud laws when they're broken...but I'm not an attorney, and I don't know that any fraud laws have been broken here.) Back to the point, Skyride has done a better job of letting people know they're out there.

Quote

I really don't see how anyone can defend their 'business model' - complete lies are not a business model.

Have they at least stopped stealing everyone's websites designs and pictures?

Read my post again - you'll see that I was in no way apologizing for Skyride's shady business practices. I never have. (When I said "selling a better product," I meant in the eyes of a non-jumper, it appears to be a better product). But as we all know, what they're selling and what customers are getting are 2 different things.

I think almost all of us on this board (with the exception of the few Skyride employees) feel pretty much the same way about Skyride. What I'm trying to do, rather than just venting about how frustrated I am with them, is to take a deep breath, look at the "why's" and "how's" of the situation, and then try to see how we can fix the problem one step at a time.

We're all frustrated by it. But rather than sitting around and talking it to death (he says, 2000 posts in), perhaps we should quit the griping and try and do something?

Skyride is obviously winning the PR battle on a national level. Their linking up with E! and SkyMall, etc, illustrates that. Which is unacceptable, given what they're actually selling. I'm just looking for weaknesses that might be attackable. Because in all honesty, I'm tired of this thread still being here.

[Programmer 0]

Using the name of another business on your web page to fool search engines is not good marketing - unless you think that running red lights to get places faster is good driving.