Downwind Landing

[JeepDiver 0]

Well, I saw my first down wind landing this weekend. I was really worried about the jumper. It was not a pretty sight. A nice solid bounce off the chest over, to a bounce off the back, to a standing posistion where he started to gather his lines up. Thankfully it was a freshly plowed field. All that seemed injured was ego. However there are worse things.

Sticking it like that into a foot of plowed dirt didn't allow him to slide the landing at all.

As a student jumper I better understand now and thankfully my friend wasn't injured as bad as that landing looked.

[BIGUN 1,050]

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didn't allow him to slide the landing at all.

PLF's are much better.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[councilman24 36]

Sliding landings, while you may see them all the time, are an advanced technique. Wait a few hundred jumps before exploring this. Stick to running or plf for now.

At your level you need to concentrate on landing where you want while watching out for traffic. And just trying to stand up.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[LawnDart21 0]

One of my favorite stories I like to tell at the bonfire:

"A few years ago a load of very experienced jumpers went up on a high wind day. Most were "younger jumpers" (in sport less than 10 years, , all had atleast a 1000 jumps though). The sole "old timer" on the load, has been in the sport 30 years and also has 1000s of jumps.

Long story short, a bad spot and the whole load is barely making the DZ landing area. The younger jumpers all attempt braked flat turns to get into the wind and tumble in every direction. Last to land is the old timer, straight down wind on a high wind day, calmly flares his PD 210 and slides.....and slides.....and slides some more, gently coming to rest on his butt. He stands up and dusts off his jumpsuit and walks in and packs. Everyone else tried to land into the wind, he just tried to land as safely as he could."

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[AMax 0]

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Stick to running or plf for now

Running? I have heard that some attempts to run a down wind landing resulted in fatalities

[dorbie 0]

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didn't allow him to slide the landing at all.

PLF's are much better.

I'm curious, can you safely plf a down wind landing with significant forward motion?

What's best here?

[jdfreefly 1]

Did you ever wipe out while skiing and going really fast?

It isn't the best idea but it can be done. The thing is to keep your body tucked up and roll with it. It's when you start sticking arms and legs out at odd angles that things get messy.

If you hear a loud snaping sound from one of your extremities, it usually means you're doing it wrong.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Canuck 0]

If the jumper actually "bounced off his chest" he had bigger problems than simply landing downwind. Sounds like a low turn too.

I had a landing this Spring that comes to mind; an intentional downwinder that went on forever. I crossed the landing area completely and ended up landing on a chunky plowed downhill slope still carrying plenty of speed. Running would have been the wrong idea - it surely would have resulted in something broken or a face full of dirt! Instead, I piked my legs out in front of me and slid in on my ass. A PLF would have worked too, but I hate getting dirty.

I disagree with the statement that sliding is an advanced manouver. Tandem passenger do it all the time on their first jump. Making it look good - now that takes practice.

Canuck

[JohnMitchell 14]

If you're landing more downward than forward, a PLF is good. If you've got lots of forward speed but have flared to reduce your rate of descent, sliding works well. If you have a high rate of descent and a lot of forward speed, you have really screwed up and are probably going to get hurt.

Years ago, I had the pleasure to jump with Franz Weber, the world record holder for speed skiing at over 130 mph, when he was learning to skydive in Utah. I asked him what it was like to fall going that fast. He said, with a thick Austrian accent, "Oh, is not so bad, John . . .unless you try to stop. Then it's bad."

I think that sums up trying to PLF on a downwind landing. People have been killed doing that. Landing downwind on a high resistance surface like a plowed field would suck.

[happythoughts 0]

If you do the feet, knees, chest landing and then flip forward, you risk snapping your neck as you go over. This has resulted in death before.

[BIGUN 1,050]

I've done it at forty miles an hour downwind (not intentionally). Well learned and proper PLFs beat butt-landing-slide-ins in my book every time.

I'm not talking about the one or two that most are taught with the requisite golf clap.. I'm talking about seriously learning how to do PLFs from any angle from multiple heights while your body is in varying positions.

IMO, even if you screw up a PLF, you may break limbs....You screw up the butt slide-in and it's your spine.

My $.02

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Reginald 0]

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Landing downwind on a high resistance surface like a plowed field would suck.

How about a plowed muddy field a foot thick? And yes it sucks!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[JeepDiver 0]

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If you do the feet, knees, chest landing and then flip forward, you risk snapping your neck as you go over. This has resulted in death before.

This is just what happened, there was no low turn attempted. It was a straight in, fast down wind landing. The plowed field was the problem. At touchdown he just stopped and then flipped.

The bounce and flip looked so bad. I was also worried about neck injuries as it happened. I was very relieved to see him standing and gathering his lines.

[councilman24 36]

I wasn't refering to a down wind landing. I was refering to "normal" upwind landings. I also was refering to sliding on your feet. You need a very well maintained and smooth landing area for this. I should have been more clear. I imagine this student see experienced jumpers do feet slides and thinking that is normal.

Sliding on you butt, if you've got your vertical speed to zero is a good option. But you have to have some skill at that to flare for your butt. I learned that when I started jumping after breaking my ankle. I couldn't take a running step so I learned to flare for my butt and slide like into second base. It took a long time to learn to flare for my feet again.

I do still use butt sliding landing for things I do think I can run out. But one key is to slide on one cheek and not on your tail bone.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,384]

>can you safely plf a down wind landing with significant forward motion?

Yeah, but it's not a "normal" PLF - it stops. You start with feet and knees together, legs offset to one side. You hit with your feet first (with them out in front of you) and then proceed to side of legs, thigh - and stop there, with your feet together, in front of you, and with you sliding on your thigh/hip. To do this well you have to get your vertical speed to zero as you touch down. Once you are in this position you're sliding and can take a lot of impact with your legs if you run into anything.

Things to avoid are "planting" your feet and cartwheeling, landing on your pelvis (it's not that strong) or using your hands to "protect" yourself. Your ankles are a lot stronger than your wrists.

[chuteless 1]

There used to be a young woman who we called "Downwind Lynn". She could never figure out which way to face when landing.

I had taken her equipment off her unconsious body, and she was warned many times to get things right "before she jumps again" but shw would not listen.

She finnaly killed herself with one of her amazing crash and burn landings....So Sad.!!!!!

Bill Cole D-41

[AMax 0]

councilman24,

sorry, I misunderstood ... my bad

[councilman24 36]

Not your bad. I knew what I was thinking, just didn't write it.

I have had some pretty good crashes. My Sabre's loaded pretty good and isn't flaring so go any more. But I've also gotten good and tuck and roll landings. Along with the butt slides.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Terry,

I just gotta ask, per Bigun's statement above regarding PLF's vs sliding in (arms/legs vs spine)....

Don't you believe the butt slide is something we shouldn't do at all???

I've done quite a few this year, and thought it was fine as I was learning to fly my first canopy (transitioning from student gear).

However, the last one I did, I liked to broke my tailbone (close but no cigar) and walked with pain for weeks.

Upon doing that, I searched the subject on these forums and for what it's worth, came up with the realization that it's fairly easy to make a mistake on that slide in and damage your spine fairly significantly.

That said, shouldn't we avoid butt slides at all cost?

If we can't stand it up, PLF?

Anyhow, that's where this youngun is coming from currently. Could you give me a reason why I'd want to do opposite?



J

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[Scrumpot 1]

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If we can't stand it up, PLF?

And if you can't get your forward speed down under your current canopy enough that you feel you have the ability to safely do either consistently (upwind, crosswind OR DOWNWIND) and under YOUR CONTROL, then UPSIZE until you CAN!

This looking for other ways "out" is really starting to astound (and confound) me.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[councilman24 36]

I don't think that someone at your level should need to do a butt slide or should. When I see low timers do butt slides its flat on their butt with their legs out straight. If your flare is wrong and you don't have ZERO vertical velocity this is asking for that broken tail bone or worse. Even if you do get the flare right sliding on your tailbone (part of your spine) isn't a good idea. Even on a non student canopy your first canopy should allow you to eithe stand up or PLF.

That being said I use a sliding landing when my leg is feeling bad or I'm coming in harder or faster than I want to. I shattered the end of my tibia and broke by fibula in 1987 with about 700 jumps. It has a lot of metal in it and I can't run very well. I CAN run out landings now but when I first came back I couldn't take a running step. So if I had any forward speed at all I had to slide. I learned WELL how to slide like a baseball player sliding into second. One knee bent, up on one cheek and standing up right away at the end. My tailbone never gets to the ground.

I stil use this sometimes. I slammed down on my bad ankle earlier this year and didn't want to land hard on it again. So I slide the next one in on purpose. But, again, its a skill I learned after having a lot of jumps.

I also do some pretty spectacular rolling landings when my leg can't keep up. But again, I've gotten good at it by necessity. I also used to routinely do PLF's after breaking my ankle and when I was still jumping larger canopies. I didn't necessarily have a lot of forward speed but would (and still do) sometimes lose lift. Being good at routinely droping into a PLF is a lifetime skill. Especially jumping a round for the first time since I broke my ankle this summer.

So, don't slide on your butt. You shouldn't need to slide at all. But if anything slide on one thigh and cheek.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Exactly what I was saying!!!!
BTW: Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I had to land that way every time!

190 Sq Ft Chute, 190 Pound guy. Not bad, it just took a couple biffs for me to get the timing right on my landings.

But the "other way out" thing kind of got me as well. Thats when I found through most of my reading that butt slides can be damn dangerous.

The one that bruised my tailbone scared me, which is why I stopped butt sliding when needing an "out".

Now I plf.

j

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Good points all.

I do my best at this point to avoid the slide, and since I've put a few on that canopy, I'm landing fairly well at this point without the need for acrobatics.

The butt slide thing worked great for me a couple times, however, there was that once that it didn't, which sent me the other way completely.

I can see why you'd modify your landing for those purposes though.



J

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[kelpdiver 2]

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So, don't slide on your butt. You shouldn't need to slide at all. But if anything slide on one thigh and cheek.

If you're gonna slide it in, I can't think of any reason you wouldn't be better off rolling over to one cheek. Esp on grass, it's pretty soft if the speed is mostly horizonal.

If you're a lowtimer like me, it suggests that you delayed the flare or didn't use more than 50% of the range.

[skr 1]

>can you safely plf a down wind landing with significant forward motion?

Yes.

I think lots of people are butt sliding now because
they weren't taught how to PLF.

I've PLFed my way out of all kinds of scary situations
and stupid mistakes, including once off of a motorcycle.

It takes some practice to get comfortable with the
technique. If you get a military jumper or an old
timer to show you how, and then practice a few
minutes a day until you have accumulated several
hours worth of practice, you'll have it when you
need it.

And if you keep jumping you'll probably need it
sooner or later.

Skr