Richmond Boogie

[stratostar 5]

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[gearless_chris 1]

Naked Larry started a new job and they told him if he took the time off of work he'd be fired. He's upset that this was the first Richmond he's missed since they started.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[RogerRamjet 0]

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The second point is - Where's the young fun jumpers?
Something is obviously wrong here. Maybe there is pockets of good activity, but without a doubt- The current tandem then "AFF only" system is a failure at retention.

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The old static-line then 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 sec delay type of progression was HUGELY SUCCESSFULL at retaining jumpers.

It was? I worked at one of the largest commercial dropzones in the world in 1973/74, Z-Hills. We had as many as 40 students a day on the weekends. The retention rate for more than one jump was slightly more than 1 in 100. More than 100 jumps was 1 of the remaining 100 from the first group.

From my first jump course of approx 20 students, I'm the only one to make more than 10 jumps.

Is the current system worse than that?

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[Skymonkey2 0]

No, last year Skydive Tecumseh in MI had a 20% completion rate, and we have a high rate, not as high as Tecumseh.

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[RogerRamjet 0]

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No, last year Skydive Tecumseh in MI had a 20% completion rate, and we have a high rate, not as high as Tecumseh.

Since my memory is no better than anyone else's from that far back, I emailed Jim Hooper to get his recollection on it. Here is his replay (with his permission):

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Rog -

You know, that's something I often discussed back then, but I really don't remember the statistics. However, I'd say that it was better than 1:50 for a second jump, but less than 1:100 for those from the second-jump group that went on to, say, C license level. My long-held belief is that only a certain percentage of the general population is genetically predisposed to extreme risk-taking. Student retention and progression to that level, in my opinion, has less to do with a welcoming and attentive student program than possession of that particular genetic profile. It's a fascinating subject and one that Vic Napier is studying.

Hoop

Even with that, I don't see that static line did any better than current methods (I realize SL is still available at some DZs). I think Jim's theory about who skydives has merit in this context.

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[butturnuts 0]

Yeah...........They should have just closed up shop. Funny I don't seem to remember skygod organizers being at Start, as I recall the organizing was being done by a regular at the DZ with around a thousand jumps. Maybe Xenia should have ceased all activities too.
You really should stop shitting on people you don't know anything about.

[stratostar 5]

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You really should stop shitting on people you don't know anything about.

Yea right, Chris has known most all the players in the region for about 34 years now, and has a tad bit of a clue what his is talking about. And the fact that you Chris B. would make such a post just shows how much you really don't have a clue what your talking about.

Maybe you should spend some time learning your regional history and not just swollowing the line of bullshit your were spoon fed up the street.

Then again, I'm sure you "know it all" now just like you did when you were a student @ SWC, only worse now that you have a few hundred jumps and 4 or 5 years in the sport now.

While I understand Mr. Grinners point and reason for his post, I tend to agree with him, but that is because I know the regional history and know why Chris has said, what he said in his post. While I wouldn't have picked that "battle" myself to post about, I support his (Mr. Grinner's) right to say as he pleases about the current RD's actions and local politics.

So are we done with this pissing contest already or what!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Pissing people off is counterproductive.

That's true... so Chris, why are you working so hard at doing exactly that?

Grow up, and move on.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[skydance1954 0]

OK, My turn. I've been around the block a couple of times, and I know my regional history just fine. My first skydive in the Ohio area was back in 1976. I've made my home DZ in Ohio since 1993. I know most of the players and jumped at all the DZs in question. Been to a couple, just a couple, of Richmond Boogies, back when they were much bigger. And at the time, ALL boogies were much bigger. Any of you ever been to the WFFC at its height? How about the Turkey Meet or Christmas boogies at Z-hills?

Notice that ALL of said boogies are just a shadow of their former selves? One in particular was even cancelled. Is this the fault of competing DZs? No.

A new DZ opens in the area and suddenly it's a direct attack on the Richmond Boogie because they have some goodies on Labor Day weekend?

How about "that other" DZ just an hour away from Richmond that's been hosting large aircraft, free dinners and bands on Labor Day weekend for over 20 years? How about that same DZO being on the board for years, and did he ever visit the Richmond Boogie during his tenure? You didn't mention that, and if your local knowledge is as good as you claim, then you sure as hell know about it. So why not crack on that? Is this other DZ also directly attacking the boogie's existence? Does the DZO's absence from the Boogie indicate indifference? I think not.

If you're a regular to the Richmond Boogie, then you should also know that most of the people that go to it come from all over the country, not just the tri-state area. It's a National event, not a local one.

So - attendance was down. Yep - it's down all over, and many people are concerned and working to try to turn that around. That's not some other DZ's fault. I don't like the falling numbers or the dwindling faces any more than you do. But slamming our brothers and sisters at other DZ's is not the answer and doesn't help matters.

You appear to have a personal beef with the fact that Start Skydiving exists. Hm - did you make the same complaints when Skydive Greensburg started up? I bet they had some Labor Day weekend stuff happening too.

Every individual skydiver has the right to a choice of where he or she wants to go on any given weekend.

Every business has the right to operate within the law and offer their customers services and perks on any given day.

You, sir, are implying that neither of the above statements should apply to the tri-state region during the Richmond Boogie dates. Should we mandate that all the area DZs close from now on for a range of, say, 500 miles in all directions so that the Boogie can be assured of success and longetivity?

I don't want to see the Boogie go away. But if it takes the above to keep it going - we've got much bigger problems within the sport. Personal attacks on people we don't like for whatever reason, and attacks on other DZ businesses are not going to address the root issues. That's just counter productive noise that serves no purpose.

The sport is changing. It's not what it was in 1978, 1985 or even 1995. You don't like the direction it's going? Do something to change it. One of the facts of life is that most skydivers to date have been boomers. We're now in our 50s and 60s. I have exactly ONE friend from my first couple of years in the sport still jumping semi-regularly, and he ain't in Ohio. (and that's from a field of over 20). The last time I saw all of them together was in 1992 at the funeral of one of our own. Most likely that was the last time I will ever see most of them. Even then, most of them had quit jumping. I still talk via the web to some of them, but the're all wuffo's now with families, mortgages and jobs filling their lives. i'm the only one still active every weekend.

So yeah, the numbers at the Boogies are going down. But it's not due to other DZs existing.

Now, as far as the aforementiond RD is concerned, I'm putting my vote in for a positive note. I've very rarely seen someone as dedicated, hard working, competent, and passionate about the sport as he is. Every DZ should have someone like him on board. Start is very fortunate to have him there. You don't like him or his actions on the board? Fine. Run for the board next year and "work for the membership" yourself. Let's see if your track record would be any better.

You want the Boogie to succeed and "Live long and prosper?" Great. Help the staff out next year and come up with some marketing ideas and get the word out. Come up with something to make those people from all over the country to want to come to Richmond again. Do something positive. Hell, just do SOMETHING. The Boogie needs young blood to be a "happening" place. That's what it was 20 years ago.

So make it attractive to the new generation of jumpers. Give them a reason to choose to be at Richmond on Labor Day weekend, 'cause it ain't gonna happen all by itself.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[wildblue 4]

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Maybe you should spend some time learning your regional history and not just swollowing the line of bullshit your were spoon fed up the street.

History is history. All this political regional bullshit is absurd. If you have something against a specific person for their past actions, bring up when it's time to vote. Why bother dragging the place that employs them into it? Stereotyping an entire group is pointless too. So some ex-army people have fucked things up in the past (in your opinion) so we shouldn't elect anymore. Great. There's also been some white males that fucked everything up too - let's stop putting them in power too.

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Or giving a staff member or regular fun jumper a ton of shit for going to jump with friends at another regional dz, this has been going on many years as you know.

I'm well aware of this myself. The sad thing is, all the BS happened before I even got into the sport, but there's still a handful of people that can't let it go. I've never really felt welcome at Richmond because I came from "that" DZ - which is sad because the majority of people there are/were very welcoming. Most people could get past the couple of people that made them feel like that - I just haven't been able to.

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So are we done with this pissing contest already or what!

God I hope so. Like you said, we're not curing cancer or anything here. If there's specific actions or policies you disagree with, please share. Bashing someone because they had a Labor Day "boogie" is retarded. Blaming them for lower attendance is even worse.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[stratostar 5]

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Maybe you should spend some time learning your regional history and not just swollowing the line of bullshit your were spoon fed up the street.***

That comment had nothing to do with Kip or start skydiving. But then again your spoon fed bandwagon rider too, based on your past posts defending of a well known crooked ass operator, so go put your head back in the sand already!

The sad thing is, all the BS happened before I even got into the sport


And this is why your so clueless about events, well that and the fact that your on the bandwagon.

Bashing someone because they had a Labor Day "boogie" is retarded. Blaming them for lower attendance is even worse.***


I don't believe I bashed anyone for their boogie, for one thing, nor did I blame that for low attendance! In fact I defended their god given right to do just that.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wildblue 4]

Jesus Christ Wes, I'm not on any "bandwagon" and the only thing I've ever done is asked for more information about accusations that were made (which I ended up getting by the way, and not from you because your standard line is "go look it up") And I'll repeat myself - most of that BS happened before I got into the sport. If you have something more recent, feel free to share.

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And this is why your so clueless about events, well that and the fact that your on the bandwagon.

Any time you want to enlighten me, please do. I've asked before, and all you do is call people bandwagon riders. I'm not that kind of person - I won't blindly defend someone/someplace, I have to know it to be true or untrue.

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I don't believe I bashed anyone for their boogie

That wasn't directed at you.


How the hell did we get to here anyway?!

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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as I recall the organizing was being done by a regular at the DZ with around a thousand jumps.

Hey now... I kinda liked the idea of being called a "super-skygod organizer"! I guess I better not let it go to my head, or I won't be able to fit it through the door.

On an unrelated note, as for our regional director... he's elected by uspa members. If you don't like him, don't vote for him. He'll get my vote, because I see him busting his ass every day out there for us, as a director, as a DZ manager, as an instructor, and as an examiner, and doing it with a smile. He's an excellent teacher, and it's good to have someone on the board with some balls. Sure, he has some ideas I don't agree with, but who doesn't? Hell, I have some ideas I probably won't agree with in another year.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[ChrisG 0]

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Notice that ALL of said boogies are just a shadow of their former selves? One in particular was even cancelled. Is this the fault of competing DZs? No.

I agree

***A new DZ opens in the area and suddenly it's a direct attack on the Richmond Boogie because they have some goodies on Labor Day weekend?

Well, yea, sorta. It did take some wind out of my sails though, when I heard it was a 'christian band'

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You appear to have a personal beef with the fact that Start Skydiving exists.

No, not that they exist, I just wonder what his agenda is.

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You, sir, are implying that neither of the above statements should apply to the tri-state region during the Richmond Boogie dates. Should we mandate that all the area DZs close from now on for a range of, say, 500 miles in all directions so that the Boogie can be assured of success and longetivity?

I vote YES on that. Except for tandems of course. 700 miles may be better though.
Mike, I agree with a lot of things you said, maybe we can talk about it the next time I'm there.

[skydance1954 0]

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A new DZ opens in the area and suddenly it's a direct attack on the Richmond Boogie because they have some goodies on Labor Day weekend?

Well, yea, sorta. It did take some wind out of my sails though, when I heard it was a 'christian band'

All right. We'll have to agree to disagree with that point of view. I don't for one minute believe that one of the deliberate agenda items when opening the DZ last spring was to damage the Richmond Boogie. JH is a business man. And a successful one. His vision is long term, and I'd be willing to bet that purposely damaging a once-a-year national boogie was not on his mind. If it was, you would have seen a much higher marketing profile for the weekend event. And the prime load organizer would have been several world champions in different disciplines, not a 1,000 jump "high-powered skygod".
:)

Who, by the way, did an excellent job. Just ask anyone who was there. He did set up a successful DZ record 18 way.

(This is a completely objective analysis) ;)

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You appear to have a personal beef with the fact that Start Skydiving exists.

No, not that they exist, I just wonder what his agenda is.

"His" who? The DZO or the DZM? I can assure you that their agendas are different. There are overlaps, yes, but they are not identical.

Either way - why not ask them directly?

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I vote YES on that. Except for tandems of course. 700 miles may be better though.

Well, that ain't gonna happen. I would challenge you to find any DZO that would be willing to shut down his business on the last long weekend of the summer with a long, dry winter ahead of him/her.

There is also the issue of the regular jumpers at a given DZ who may not want to go to the boogie that weekend for whatever reason. I spent many Labor Day weekends at SGC because I enjoyed the ambiance there, and the people. It was home. Simple as that.

Also, people came from all over to jump there at their Labor Day Boogie. It was/is much smaller than Richmond, but no less fun.

Which brings me back to the most important questions:
Do you (and others) object to the long running SGC and SDG's Labor Day events?
Do you also object to former Board members not attending the Boogie during their tenure? Did you make your objections known at the time?

If not, why is it any different now? Both of said DZs had their events that weekend this year, and no comments have been made about that other than for me to ask the question.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[ChrisG 0]

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Even with that, I don't see that static line did any better than current methods (I realize SL is still available at some DZs). I think Jim's theory about who skydives has merit in this context.

My knowledge is limited on that subject, but it seems to me that since the population is larger now, there would be more with that trait.

Considering the number of tandems being done, it just seems to me that there should be more jumpers around. I think we need to simplify things and make it cheaper and easier. AFF is too complicated and expensive to the point that it excludes a large number of people.
Its just my opinion, but I really feel that if DZ's would promote a cheaper static line-delay type of progression after a tandem, rather than just AFF, they would get a lot more to stick.
Its so much easier to advance, and you dont have to stay real current to succeed. In fact, it is proven with this system that you can be almost a complete oaf and still progress, have fun, and most importantly- jump safely. Look at me! I'm still alive.
I feel the obvious lack of fun jumpers is a serious problem to the future of our sport. Why do I care? I dont know, I just do. Bringing back the static line progression is my suggestion to improve things.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Its just my opinion, but I really feel that if DZ's would promote a cheaper static line-delay type of progression after a tandem, rather than just AFF, they would get a lot more to stick.

For the record, that is one of the first things you've said on this thread I agree with. While AFF has it's advantages in terms of rate of skills learning, static line/IAD are much more cost effective per jump, and offering it as an option opens skydiving up to a larger audience.

I was discussing this exact issue just this week with Kip, and you might be surprised to learn that he also agrees that static line/IAD has it's place. In fact, he stated that he is considering offering IAD at Start in the future, both as a way to bring in more jumpers, and as a way to get experienced jumpers involved more quickly, since an IAD instructor rating is much easier to achieve than AFF and can be done after only one or two hundred jumps. I don't think any decisions have been made, so don't quote this as gospel.

Before you go off and attack people, you really should learn where they stand... might be surprised.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[skydance1954 0]

I also agree that perhaps static line or IAD might be a more cost effective way to go. But there's also another factor in this type of training that I believe is just as, and perhaps more important.

With this type of training, the student must dedicate the entire day to the adventure. He or she joins a group of people who collectively take the class and over the hours share a high adventure. Further, at the end of the day, both while waiting for their turn, and afterwards, they have time to interact with the regular jumpers, who, if they do what was done in the past, welcome them to the brotherhood, and invite them to stay for the after hours socializing.

The students hear the war stories, and they all have a jump story to tell as well.

This helps foster the feeling that they are part of the group, and are welcome to come back tomorrow. And since it's not as expensive as AFF, they are more likely to do so.

Do the numbers bear it out? Well, who knows? I don't have them, but it might be good business to offer that option again.

And then us old farts can be jumpmasters again. hehehehehe.......

Geez, my old skills just might come in handy again. Full circle. How about that, eh?

Oh, and to be a fly on the wall the first few times a new jumpmaster has to do a hop-n-pop from 2800' :-O

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[ChrisG 0]

I normally don't respond to anyone that hides their name, but I think you're Jared, and you agreed with me on something, so I'll make an exception.

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Before you go off and attack people, you really should learn where they stand... might be surprised.

The only way I "attacked" Kip personally was to criticise him for not showing at the boogie. The largest event in his district. I feel that is a legitimate complaint, and I've done the same thing before. Ask Sherry Butcher. I said in my post that he was not responsible for the freebies.
Also, I HAVE made similar comments about local DZs in the past when they made a big push on labor day. Greensburg and GC. Some local DZs sometimes think the boogie is a competing DZ type of thing because of the people that run it, and sometimes fail to realize the boogie is much more than that.
The boogie is a 'jewel' for the mideast skydiving community. Instead of offering competing events I think local DZs should encourage everyone to attend.
Heres a utopia type dream;
How about you local DZOs out there getting together, resolving your differences, and joining forces to to make The Boogie great again. The location is unbeatable.

And, now that you're a skygod, can I get on one of your loads next year?

[Skymonkey2 0]

You are right, again I had courses to handle. SGC and this dz have worked together on several occasions. when our plane was down they sent theirs over to help. I wish that all the dz's would do the same. But no one can play the guessing game. I can't help unless someone tells me. The cool thing about are dz is we have jumpers from the three big dz's and no one brings up the past, we all have looked past it and just have fun. So in agreeance with you why can't all the dz's do this? It would be cool for everyone to just get along. This forum is a prime example of people stiring up Chit and not wanting to change.

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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The boogie is a 'jewel' for the mideast skydiving community. Instead of offering competing events I think local DZs should encourage everyone to attend.
Heres a utopia type dream;
How about you local DZOs out there getting together, resolving your differences, and joining forces to to make The Boogie great again. The location is unbeatable.

The Richmond boogie is a jewel, along with the other big boogies over the years... Lost Prarie, Quincy, the Turkey Meet... there's more, but most of them pre-date me anyway.

Unfortunately, the buisiness side must be recognized. If the SGC, SDG, Start, and other DZO's made the decision not to hold their own events, then they don't make any money during their last big opportunity of the summer. That's a big sacrifice, and one that most DZO's can't afford to make, especially with recent years being as lean as they have been.

The other thing is it's true that not everyone wants to go to a big boogie. In 2005, I went to Rantoul and had a great time. I also went to the Eloy Christmas boogie and had fun. But I decided I probably wouldn't go to either a 2nd time. It's just not my scene... I don't really care about big-ways and big parties, so the option of staying at Start and organizing was more appealing to me. We're all different.

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And, now that you're a skygod, can I get on one of your loads next year?

Hey man, if you're around when I'm organizing, I'll bring you in. Although it's unlikley I'll be organizing much of anything next year since I'm moving to the desert, where I'll just be another young punk skydiver again. Hopefully I can get you in on some dives if you're down in Eloy next year though.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[johnA123 0]

Well there seems to be a lot of fuss going on here. I’ve been around a while and know most of the players involved. I’ve jumped at pretty much every DZ in this region as well as most others in the surrounding states outside this region.

Other DZ’s in the area have tried to compete with “The Boogie” but have failed.
A few years back Jim W. actually told some of his staff that they would be fired if they went to Richmond. Greensburg used to bring a lot of jumpers up for it and had some there this year I believe.

I also remember seeing other RD’s at the boogie over the years, not always for the whole event but at least a day, Horan, Butcher, Cooper, Langendorfer (hope that’s close
Ron) to name them.

As for Start, I was notified by e-mail about their event, as was everyone else that is on their mail list I’m guessing. That’s fine if they don’t want to come and play and support the oldest and first ever “Bogie” (some of you old timers will get this) ever. Don’t need them and don’t want their attitudes anyway.

I know most of them and the RD too. The biggest problem is they are ex military but not really. They have never really got out. That’s ok too, cause without people like that the army would not have people to brainwash. And the only suitable civilian job would involve standing on the back of the truck saying “wom back”

I see a lot of yapping about training here. The military is a cookie cutter type of training that is suitable for minds that are easily confused. So there is a lot of repetition involved. I’ve trained many former military personal and was told many times that the training received was better, fun and a lot shorter than what they got by military Instructors, AND got all of the points across and was safe.

Any training program should be able to switch between instructors and keep the training on the same page. That was the biggest boost that AFF brought to the table. The problem with some EX-GI instructors is their inflexibility. If it’s not on the sheet they are lost. They only know one way to get a point across and that’s repeating it over and over regardless if the student understands. The mentality is if I repeat it enough you will understand or you don’t jump or what ever you are teaching. Most of them can’t think out of the box and come up with other ways to get a topic or point across. That is the earmark of a good TEACHER. A lot of instructors are not teachers, just repeaters.

As for our RD he’s full of wind and likes to hear himself talk, mostly about himself, in between bashing other CD’s and instructors that don’t fit his mold. The GK’s have always been a problem in the skydiving scene. Some friends were shafted by them 8-10 years back, and it was the good ole boy network at its best. Jim W. should have been in jail as well a Paul F. for some of the safety violations, but the GK’s stepped in and covered for them, and USPA looked the other way.

Sadly tandems are here to stay, too much easy money involved. The retention is lousy because the customer’s; not students, are pushed thru without any training. Hi bye next 30 bucks please.
The RD says they had great retention in Michigan. True but it was due to the manager he helped get fired, not his doing. Yes I jumped there also and I know what went on.

Too much money to train? Hmmm this has been a problem since I started. Cost me $30 bucks for my first jump. That was a lot in the 70’s when working for 5 bucks an hour.

Richmond will continue on in some way, at least I hope. All the boogies were down this year. Some of you asked where all of the younger folks were, probably at Chicago for summer fest. A lot of people I talked with this year in my travels were debating where to go for Labor Day. Some hit the Couch freaks, or the herd boogies. Or summer fest. People don’t have the time and money to go to a lot of places this year. Economy is bad in a lot of places so folks are hanging onto their money.

So don’t worry, Richmond will be around for another 20 years, some of the new places will not as soon as people realize that they are money machines and not a family.

"been around, seen some things, slept in dumpsters got high with kings
KR

[juggalo 1]

whew
thats a mouthfull
well said

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[ChrisG 0]

Wow.
A true wise man has spoken.
You are much more eloquent than I am John, and I appreciate your insight. I also appreciate that you seem to have gotten my point.
Yes, the boogie will continue, I hope, I just think it could even be better if the local DZs could get along, and promote it together.

I remember it took a year for my wife and I to save for our first jump. $120 total. First jumps are expensive and that hasn't changed. The big difference was jumps after that cost a lot less, and It was easy to continue. Theres no way would I have been able to afford AFF.
The lack of new fun jumpers may be explained away by the economy, but if thats the case then it only makes sense to find a way to lower prices. I feel the static line-delay thing is a way to do it.
Whats your opinion on that?

And by the way; it was 'BOGGIE' not 'BOGEY'

[johnA123 0]

thats right I was trying to remember the old t shirts getting fuzzy these days

I think students should have a choice of all training programs. S/L is good if you don't have a lot of money. AFF is good but costs more. Tandem should be only for the old people that want a thrill or the disabled. Never thought much of tandem for training. I don't like people that jump that are afraid to take resopnsibility for their own life, i/e dealing with a mal or landing on their own.
Also if schools are doing tandem it should be training not just a 5 minute brief and hook them up and go. Have them wear an alti, pull the rip cord help with flying and landing. Tandem can be a decent tool if used properly. its great for teaching canopy control if the instructors do it.
I see too many places where the brief is 10 minutes on the ground and the rest in the A/C. Land and signa certificte and move on to the next one. There is no time spent building a rapport with the customer.

"been around, seen some things, slept in dumpsters got high with kings
KR