Will Dz's renew their Group Membership?

[chutejump 0]

We have read and heard all of the opinions of the GM programs Pro's and Con's. No one is pleased with USPAs failure against Skyride! So let us cut to the chase!
As a DZO no need to devulge your affiliation just place your vote. If we do not state to USPA what our likes or dislikes are, they will never consider our opinions went they make future changes. We complain about everything USPA does as an organization, but we as it's membership never take the time to vote! Apathy is not a position you are allowed to complain from! So take a stance, Put your ink on a line!
Now untwist your panties! pull out and arrange your
sack! And Vote!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I don't know anyone that thinks the Skyride issue is the only or even the worst issue that needs to be dealt with.

[blakeman 0]

Skyride? Are you f**king kidding me? You think that battling Skyride is USPA's best and highest function?

Do you even know what they do all day?

[chutejump 0]

Quote

Skyride? Are you f**king kidding me? You think that battling Skyride is USPA's best and highest function?

Do you even know what they do all day?

Well let me see?? Hummm Yes! I do know what they do all day! You ask me how? 30 F**king years as a member and DZO, J/M and I in all disciplines, Course Conductor, Tandem Examiner, Master rigger, DPRE, Pilot, A&P Mechanic, Pro rated and all that other shit!! I made no statement or referrals that Skyride was USPA's highest function! Maybe you need to hit that pipe stem again and get back with the discussion and question?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

Skyride? Are you f**king kidding me? You think that battling Skyride is USPA's best and highest function?

Do you even know what they do all day?

Well let me see?? Hummm Yes! I do know what they do all day! You ask me how? 30 F**king years as a member and DZO, J/M and I in all disciplines, Course Conductor, Tandem Examiner, Master rigger, DPRE, Pilot, A&P Mechanic, Pro rated and all that other shit!! I made no statement or referrals that Skyride was USPA's highest function! Maybe you need to hit that pipe stem again and get back with the discussion and question?

As someone with clearly a better take on the situation than most of us, what are YOUR opnions on the program....from your point of view, worth keeping or not....and why?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chutejump 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Skyride? Are you f**king kidding me? You think that battling Skyride is USPA's best and highest function?

Do you even know what they do all day?

Well let me see?? Hummm Yes! I do know what they do all day! You ask me how? 30 F**king years as a member and DZO, J/M and I in all disciplines, Course Conductor, Tandem Examiner, Master rigger, DPRE, Pilot, A&P Mechanic, Pro rated and all that other shit!! I made no statement or referrals that Skyride was USPA's highest function! Maybe you need to hit that pipe stem again and get back with the discussion and question?

As someone with clearly a better take on the situation than most of us, what are YOUR opnions on the program....from your point of view, worth keeping or not....and why?

OK! My opinion! For many years I thought that the program was necessary to maintain a standard of operations, programs, and recourse if uspa found a problem. But for some time this has not proven to be the case. Enforced application of the GM pledge and requirements from DZ to DZ seems to be selective at best!
As a DZO I am required to spend money to support the GM program with the promise of the returned benefits of membership. I started to question what these perks were? a listing in the mag as a GM DZ? Sure all of my potential student business reads the mag to find me! Listing in the uspa GM web site? I have many skydiving sites that list my DZ for free! I don't have a need to bid to host the nationals or any other major event, so I guess I'am not part of the good-oldboy process?
USPA with the use of the GM tool now has a position in the methods and the decisions that I must make to operate my DZ. If uspa is a "membership" organization then why are they dictating to some extent how I should operate my DZ? Whom I should allow to jump and whom I should not? and force membership to be allowed to pursue the sport at my DZ?
This is part of the problem that they got themselves into with the Skyride debacle, They say the airport defense fund is a perk, this is also offered on a very selective basis, I can name 2 DZs whom didn't receive assistance with a request to every 1 that did, we are all members then why do we not all get the same support with the GM pledge? People say that the BSRs are important and are the standard of how DZs should operate! I see the BSRs as the bottom of the barrel the line that you should start from as you operate and make plans to offer your services, why do people think that they are more than they are?
Every DZ should look to rise above the uspa requirements and BSRs to improve their operations. If you wish to protect yourself in a law suit all you need show is that your rules and standards of operations are higher that the recognized standard (USPA).
I think uspa has a very valid position in government relations, state and federal laws that pertain to the sport, and should remain the body recognized by the FAA as a self policing organization. I also think they should not be in the DZ operations business and that every DZ should stand alone on their own merit and business platform. I get the same support with my individual membership that everyone else receives, and firmly believe that should be the limit of uspa's involvement, represent me and the sport to the rest of the world, don't control how I interact, or provide services to the rest of the membership.

[blakeman 0]

Well golly. I guess you're right. I mean, the hell with USPA anyway. We don't need 'em. They pretty much just waste all our money anyway. The magazine sucks, the rating programs suck, I'll probably never get to that damn museum...

And I guess you do know what they do there. My apologies. So, who are all those people anyway? And what do they care what happens to us? I mean, how many jumps does that Glenn Bangs fellow make in a year? Is he a real skydiver? And that Ed Scott guy, what the hell was he up to for so long at USPA? What kind of stake does he have in this? I heard we were paying him to be a lobbyist in DC for all kinds of issues... I say we save the money, and maybe get a college intern to do that stuff! Then we can spend all those membership dues on something really neato! Hell, while we're at it, let's just all get together and vote for free membership for all of us so we can spend that money on jumps! And on top of that, don't allow anyone with a financial stake in skydiving to have the reins to this beast. I'm sure we can all pitch in and get it done! It'll be by the jumpers for the jumpers! Yeah! Let the DZOs just run off and form their own damn organization - the hell with 'em! I'm pretty sure they don't give a shit about skydiving anyway! Most of those dudes are doing it just for the money anyway - most of them are driving Porshes and Ferraris when we aren't around, I'm sure of it!
I especially like Nicks idea of the FAA taking care of us! I am positive that they will ask one of us to be their inspector. There's no way they will be irritated with one more thing to take care of. There's no way they would assign some entry-level bureaucrat without a single jump to take care of us. I mean, skydiving is a huge industry! Huge! There's dropzones everywhere! There have to be as many dropzones as commercial airports, right? We probably account for a similar amount of economic input to the nation, right? They'd have to listen to us, and take our best interests at heart. They probably wouldn't take very long to come up with a federally-approved training program that we all liked that required awesome instructors... and it probably doesn't cost that much to have one of those terrain-avoidance things in every turbine airplane (I can't believe that the DZOs wanted to sidestep THAT FAR - I mean, what a cool idea for a VFR jumpship that only flies a big circle to 13K!) I'm pretty sure the DZOs wouldn't have to raise our jump prices to add one of those in there...or maybe just close down...

You know what? I would like to rescind my earlier post. I have clearly missed the point. No, I do not think DZs will renew their membership. We all know they spend $400 just to post that USPA logo on their website. There isn't a one of them that realizes that the Group Membership Fee is secretly called the Pay For A Good Lobbyist For Peanuts To Keep The Gorilla Off Our Backs. I'm sure they all think that that whoppin' $400 bucks is more usefully spent on something else like a DZ Inpection program that probably wouldn't even be paid attention to by the fun-jumper masses. Right?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Skyride? Are you f**king kidding me? You think that battling Skyride is USPA's best and highest function?

Do you even know what they do all day?

Well let me see?? Hummm Yes! I do know what they do all day! You ask me how? 30 F**king years as a member and DZO, J/M and I in all disciplines, Course Conductor, Tandem Examiner, Master rigger, DPRE, Pilot, A&P Mechanic, Pro rated and all that other shit!! I made no statement or referrals that Skyride was USPA's highest function! Maybe you need to hit that pipe stem again and get back with the discussion and question?

As someone with clearly a better take on the situation than most of us, what are YOUR opnions on the program....from your point of view, worth keeping or not....and why?

OK! My opinion! For many years I thought that the program was necessary to maintain a standard of operations, programs, and recourse if uspa found a problem. But for some time this has not proven to be the case. Enforced application of the GM pledge and requirements from DZ to DZ seems to be selective at best!
As a DZO I am required to spend money to support the GM program with the promise of the returned benefits of membership. I started to question what these perks were? a listing in the mag as a GM DZ? Sure all of my potential student business reads the mag to find me! Listing in the uspa GM web site? I have many skydiving sites that list my DZ for free! I don't have a need to bid to host the nationals or any other major event, so I guess I'am not part of the good-oldboy process?
USPA with the use of the GM tool now has a position in the methods and the decisions that I must make to operate my DZ. If uspa is a "membership" organization then why are they dictating to some extent how I should operate my DZ? Whom I should allow to jump and whom I should not? and force membership to be allowed to pursue the sport at my DZ?
This is part of the problem that they got themselves into with the Skyride debacle, They say the airport defense fund is a perk, this is also offered on a very selective basis, I can name 2 DZs whom didn't receive assistance with a request to every 1 that did, we are all members then why do we not all get the same support with the GM pledge? People say that the BSRs are important and are the standard of how DZs should operate! I see the BSRs as the bottom of the barrel the line that you should start from as you operate and make plans to offer your services, why do people think that they are more than they are?
Every DZ should look to rise above the uspa requirements and BSRs to improve their operations. If you wish to protect yourself in a law suit all you need show is that your rules and standards of operations are higher that the recognized standard (USPA).
I think uspa has a very valid position in government relations, state and federal laws that pertain to the sport, and should remain the body recognized by the FAA as a self policing organization. I also think they should not be in the DZ operations business and that every DZ should stand alone on their own merit and business platform. I get the same support with my individual membership that everyone else receives, and firmly believe that should be the limit of uspa's involvement, represent me and the sport to the rest of the world, don't control how I interact, or provide services to the rest of the membership.

A very well stated position coming from someone actually 'on the front lines'...thank you.

And I for one totally agree with you that the BSR's are merely a minimum standard to be observed...that being said, would you agree that the 'free market' system of competition is actually a better tool to insure that operating standards at a DZ are kept to a point that is beneficial to both the general membership as well as the general consumer...aka first time student?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Well golly. I guess you're right. I mean, the hell with USPA anyway. We don't need 'em. They pretty much just waste all our money anyway. The magazine sucks, the rating programs suck, I'll probably never get to that damn museum...

And I guess you do know what they do there. My apologies. So, who are all those people anyway? And what do they care what happens to us? I mean, how many jumps does that Glenn Bangs fellow make in a year? Is he a real skydiver? And that Ed Scott guy, what the hell was he up to for so long at USPA? What kind of stake does he have in this? I heard we were paying him to be a lobbyist in DC for all kinds of issues... I say we save the money, and maybe get a college intern to do that stuff! Then we can spend all those membership dues on something really neato! Hell, while we're at it, let's just all get together and vote for free membership for all of us so we can spend that money on jumps! And on top of that, don't allow anyone with a financial stake in skydiving to have the reins to this beast. I'm sure we can all pitch in and get it done! It'll be by the jumpers for the jumpers! Yeah! Let the DZOs just run off and form their own damn organization - the hell with 'em! I'm pretty sure they don't give a shit about skydiving anyway! Most of those dudes are doing it just for the money anyway - most of them are driving Porshes and Ferraris when we aren't around, I'm sure of it!
I especially like Nicks idea of the FAA taking care of us! I am positive that they will ask one of us to be their inspector. There's no way they will be irritated with one more thing to take care of. There's no way they would assign some entry-level bureaucrat without a single jump to take care of us. I mean, skydiving is a huge industry! Huge! There's dropzones everywhere! There have to be as many dropzones as commercial airports, right? We probably account for a similar amount of economic input to the nation, right? They'd have to listen to us, and take our best interests at heart. They probably wouldn't take very long to come up with a federally-approved training program that we all liked that required awesome instructors... and it probably doesn't cost that much to have one of those terrain-avoidance things in every turbine airplane (I can't believe that the DZOs wanted to sidestep THAT FAR - I mean, what a cool idea for a VFR jumpship that only flies a big circle to 13K!) I'm pretty sure the DZOs wouldn't have to raise our jump prices to add one of those in there...or maybe just close down...

You know what? I would like to rescind my earlier post. I have clearly missed the point. No, I do not think DZs will renew their membership. We all know they spend $400 just to post that USPA logo on their website. There isn't a one of them that realizes that the Group Membership Fee is secretly called the Pay For A Good Lobbyist For Peanuts To Keep The Gorilla Off Our Backs. I'm sure they all think that that whoppin' $400 bucks is more usefully spent on something else like a DZ Inpection program that probably wouldn't even be paid attention to by the fun-jumper masses. Right?

Quote

Interesting rant, but I think you may need to go back and re-read the things I've posted.

I'm the one stressing we need to get more information and not go off half-cocked and cut off our nose to spite our face!


Oh...and I don't know Ed Scott, but I do know Glenn Bangs, maybe not 'personally' but I have run into him at drop-zones all over the country the past few years....so yeah he jumps.

Seemed to me to be a dedicated and knowledgeable guy that took the time to answer my questions in regard to USPA issues.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chutejump 0]

While it is still fresh on my mind some more of my opinion!
Several years ago I dropped my GM for all of the reasons that I previously listed. I had persons at my DZ request a Coach/J/M course to get their ratings, ( I have conducted courses yearly for over 20 plus years) I contacted uspa and requested the proper authorization and paper work to conduct the course. The course was offered and conducted by uspa standards with all sections of the training and evaluation controlled and completed with current uspa members whom were current and rated in all disciplines that they were training. Once completed I sent in the documents and after action report with payment for the ratings, I was contacted and informed to process the paper work for the members by uspa that an additional fee of $600.00 was required as the course was held at a non uspa GM DZ. I asked why this fee was so extreme, and was informed that it was paper work cost for a non GM member, and it was unfair to the GM DZs to allow a course to be conducted at a non GM site.
I inquired whom they considered should bare the burden of this cost and was told to pass it along to the course attendees, as that they could have attended a course at a GM DZ and removed this additional cost. My question than was why are uspa members being punished for attending a uspa rating course, and was informed, that it is not punishment just the cost of processing paper work for non GM DZs.
I was unwilling to pass this cost along to the persons whom attended the course, and personally took the loss to complete the course as I had offered it. The next year I rejoined the uspa GM program under duress, so I could continue to offer the course to train staff for the DZ operation.
The following year I was late on my GM renewal (cash flow is low when the snow is blowing) I received notice from uspa, that if I did not renew soon that I would be fined $100.00 for late renewal? This action caused me to question the motives of uspa, when and how can you threaten to fine a member or affiate for not renewing a membership in a membership organization? Did I miss something? or is this the actual thought process of the organization? Fine me for not being a member?
USPA takes the GM pledge very seriously! Do you believe this? If you do than why was I able to send my GM renewal in yearly for an extended amount of years with the renewal pledge being signed and authorized on the DZs behalf by ALFRED E. NEWMAN! (the goof ball on mad magazine for you young bucks) they even sent all the yearly renewal paperwork to Mr. NEWMAN C/O of the DZ! I am not saying that it couldn't have slipped by as a mistake once or twice! but yearly? didn't they check to see if they had a member in the data base with this name? or were they more interested in the enclosed check? Hummm?
I am not promoting deception in dealing with the organization, but the inability for the office staff to recognize my small attempt at humor for years at a time causes me to question the actual ability for the organization to represent me and the sport on a world wide basis.
I have more rants, but it will not effect the fact that I believe uspa should drop the GM program.

[chutejump 0]

A very well stated position coming from someone actually 'on the front lines'...thank you.

And I for one totally agree with you that the BSR's are merely a minimum standard to be observed...that being said, would you agree that the 'free market' system of competition is actually a better tool to insure that operating standards at a DZ are kept to a point that is beneficial to both the general membership as well as the general consumer...aka first time student?

I also beleive that the free market system would be much better, it would improve training and services by DZs that were progressive and were intent on being the icon Dzs in their area, this competition could improve and stabilize costs. and would alienate poorly run or operated DZs as they would be left to address their lack of service or enabilities to the faction that holds the highest power over any business the customer.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I am 40 yrs old and I would not know who Alfred E. Newman was if you had not told me.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I am 40 yrs old and I would not know who Alfred E. Newman was if you had not told me.

He's just another old skydiver...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I am 40 yrs old and I would not know who Alfred E. Newman was if you had not told me.

He's this guy

[Krip 2]

Quote

I am 40 yrs old and I would not know who Alfred E. Newman was if you had not told me.

[airtwardo 6]

I have more rants, but it will not effect the fact that I believe uspa should drop the GM program.

Quote

Actually...I'd like to hear 'em.

We never hear the complaints voiced in such a factual manner with real experiences, in regard to the programs weaknesses.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

I am 40 yrs old and I would not know who Alfred E. Newman was if you had not told me.

How the hell did you learn to read if it wasn't through MAD?

[Auryn 0]

Quote

We have read and heard all of the opinions of the GM programs Pro's and Con's. No one is pleased with USPAs failure against Skyride! So let us cut to the chase!
As a DZO no need to devulge your affiliation just place your vote. If we do not state to USPA what our likes or dislikes are, they will never consider our opinions went they make future changes. We complain about everything USPA does as an organization, but we as it's membership never take the time to vote! Apathy is not a position you are allowed to complain from! So take a stance, Put your ink on a line!
Now untwist your panties! pull out and arrange your
sack! And Vote!

Amen! I am getting VERY TIRED of hearing people bitch about USPA that don't get involved to try and change things. Every USPA official I've met (RDs and NDs) genuinely cares about what they are doing. I'm also really getting tired of people not factoring in the liability insurance that's included with USPA membership when they bitch about the cost. I'll gladly pay 50 dollars a year (that's a massive 4.17 a month) to have that insurance, for times such as when a cutaway baglock goes through someone driving down the highway's windshield and almost kills them, which I've also personally seen.

[Bolas 5]

If the GM program went away, and you no longer had to be a USPA member to jump at certain DZ's, how many people do you think would actually be a USPA member?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[NWFlyer 2]

History questions ...

--When did the Group membership program start?
--Did any (many, all) DZs require USPA membership prior to the establishment of the group membership program?
--How have USPA individual membership numbers changed before and after the establishment of the group membership program?

If DZs cancel their group memberships and still require USPA membership to jump; not much changes if the GM program goes away.

If DZs require USPA licensure for US skydivers, and the only way to hold an active USPA license is to be an active USPA member; not much changes if the GM program goes away.

If DZs require USPA licensure for US skydivers, and a jumper can be licensed without being an active USPA member ... then things might change if the GM program goes away.

Practically, I'm wondering if much will change, but then I don't know about the world pre-GM program ... people were members of USPA back then. Why?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[doogie 0]

Quote

I'm also really getting tired of people not factoring in the liability insurance that's included with USPA membership when they bitch about the cost. I'll gladly pay 50 dollars a year (that's a massive 4.17 a month) to have that insurance, for times such as when a cutaway baglock goes through someone driving down the highway's windshield and almost kills them, which I've also personally seen.

Agreed. That is a service to the general skydiving population. USPA should only be there to back the general skydiving population.

Why does AOPA only represent individual aircraft owners and pilots? They need to have a group FBO program or something like that! ;-) I'll bet AOPA understands the conflict of intererst trap....

[peckerhead 0]

--When did the Group membership program start?

Mid to late 80's as I recall, 87 maybe?


--Did any (many, all) DZs require USPA membership prior to the establishment of the group membership program?

Some did some didn't. If you wanted a license (and most of us did) you had to join. Membership was cheap back then and most new jumpers wanted the magazine. In my experience most people did not join until after they were off student status (25-30 jumps) There was no temp. membership. I think I had almost 50 jumps before I joined. Back then the license, awards, patches, and certificates seemed to be a big enough incentive. Some DZO's would charge a buck extra per jump to non-members to encourage people to join.

--How have USPA individual membership numbers changed before and after the establishment of the group membership program?

I don't think the experienced jumpers numbers have changed much per capita but now with the temp. membership more students and non- licensed jumpers are joining.

[skydave114 0]

Quote

If the GM program went away, and you no longer had to be a USPA member to jump at certain DZ's, how many people do you think would actually be a USPA member?

Not me! I don't compete, don't have any ratings, don't care about the mag., and I already have insurance. And jumping off rocks is more fun anyways!

[kimemerson 7]

You beat me to it. I have that one framed. And I just knew there were intelligent folks in this sport.

[Krip 2]

Quote

Quote

I'm also really getting tired of people not factoring in the liability insurance that's included with USPA membership when they bitch about the cost. I'll gladly pay 50 dollars a year (that's a massive 4.17 a month) to have that insurance, for times such as when a cutaway baglock goes through someone driving down the highway's windshield and almost kills them, which I've also personally seen.

USPA Liability insurance Anyone see a copy of the policy and know whats covered or excluded? What are the policy limits?

IMO the liabilty insurance could be a trojan horse or worse a trojan rubber.

Agreed. That is a service to the general skydiving population. USPA should only be there to back the general skydiving population.

Why does AOPA only represent individual aircraft owners and pilots? They need to have a group FBO program or something like that! ;-) I'll bet AOPA understands the conflict of intererst trap....

One Jump Wonder