Wing tunnels, The BPA = Goodbye 2 skydiving

[crashtested 0]

As a new comer to the sport, I do wonder what is going on in this sport. The BPA seems to have gotten into bed with 1 wind tunnel franchise over another. MIlton vs bedford. (Which is horse shit)
And seen more people spend good weather days in tunnels rather than at the DZ, practicing for comps.

When did this sport become about flying indoors... have i missed somthing. Was not the point of this sport to meet great new people. share our experience. sit at DZ's in crap conditions and get to talk crap, maybe even pass on advice to noobs. show someone how to maintain the rigs. teach previous knowledge on jumps, on just.. you know having fun.

the sport is going to die in this country unless more people spend time getting new People into the sport. This means loads of demo's, Big Screens of fun jumps when spectators are on the ground Share the good the bad and beautiful with them. Not treating new jumpers or Dare i say it tandem Rookies like crap when they arrive at a DZ and ask Whuffo questions. This happens a lot.. and a lot of you big time tandem boys and girls need to look how you are treating Students. Because at 5 of the dropzones i have been to it aint always pretty. And if it were my first jump i would not come back. This really aint big or clever.

Now for the BPA....

And now the BPA's soloution to the lack of new jumpers is to link up with a wind tunnel so your friends can "experience the thrill of skydiving".
This is crap. A wind tunnel has nothing to do with skydiving. You may as well put your hand next to a dyson hand dryer.

And Funjumpers...

So you might get another couple of points at your AA meet. Well done. enjoy your medal. but seriously that can't be why 99.9% of you entered this sport.

These things are killing the sport as is the BPA's lack of Ideas or imagination, unless people start worrying less about your extra 2 points and more about thoughtless leadership, there will not be a sport left in this country.

Its seriously time to think out of a perspex box, otherwise we might as well look for another way to scare the crap out of ourselves.

[Unparagoned 0]

How long have you spent in a wind tunnel?

[crashtested 0]

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How long have you spent in a wind tunnel?

Not one tunnel trip.... I would have though that was clear!!!!

i would rather fly flat for the rest of my days than give the corporate monkeys any of my money.

I do this becasue i love sport.... and that sport involves jumping from planes...

[Andy9o8 0]

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Marcus Licinius Crassus: Do you eat oysters?
Antoninus: When I have them, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus: Do you eat snails?
Antoninus: No, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus: Do you consider the eating of oysters to be moral and the eating of snails to be immoral?
Antoninus: No, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus: Of course not. It is all a matter of taste, isn't it?
Antoninus: Yes, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus: And taste is not the same as appetite, and therefore not a question of morals.
Antoninus: It could be argued so, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus: My robe, Antoninus. My taste includes both snails and oysters.


Spartacus, 1960

[Unparagoned 0]

Have you actually jumped in the UK in winter?

The BPA would never let skydiving die, since it is the best way to attract people to the wind tunnel. There has been discussion of renaming the BPA to BWTSA (British Wind Tunnel Simulator Association), but was rejected on the grounds of the acronym being too long.

I like the wind tunnel, it's great fun. I do wind tunnel simulators now and then, but in winter it gets really, really cold. I have a wind tunnel simulator quite close by but it uses a plane and that is terrible for the environment and takes ages just to do one minute. Also wind tunnel simulators are very unpredictable, you may spend all weekend there and not do any time at all. I enjoy freefall aspect the most and the wind tunnel is ~7 cheaper than skydiving in that regards.

I can't agree on the fact that the wind tunnel takes people away from the drop zone. The main reason is cost, most skydivers can't afford to spend much time at the tunnel. And you can do 40 minutes in one evening and that's it. To do the equivalent amount in skydives is quite a few weekend.(weather depending)

EDIT: Nearly forgot to say the most important reason why the wind tunnel is a million times better than skydiving. You don't need to pack!!!!!

[jakee 1,254]

Larry Oliver was awesome in that movie.

To crashtested - are you actually ragging on people for liking flying in the tunnel as well as skydiving, or for wanting to develop their skills as best they can? Seriously?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

If you're interesting in competition, and many are, then the tunnel is vital now, even in a fair weather location like Perris.

[crashtested 0]

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Larry Oliver was awesome in that movie.

To crashtested - are you actually ragging on people for liking flying in the tunnel as well as skydiving, or for wanting to develop their skills as best they can? Seriously?

I'm firstly raging on the BPA for setting up shop with airfix. their idea behind it is that peoples first experiance of skydiving is in a tunnel... Rather than at a dropzone... you should in theory go to a dz for a skydiving experience.

Than i'm raging on about the lack of effort put into people when they come to a DZ. i think tandem students are more often than not treated as a cash cow. rather than a possible new skydiver.

maybe I don't get tunnels... but small DZ's could do with the money a lot more than Airkix, yet the bpa is in fact taking the very soul from these places by encouraging bpa memebers and there buddys to spend money on tunnel time rather than there local DZ.

It won't last

[crashtested 0]

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If you're interesting in competition, and many are, then the tunnel is vital now, even in a fair weather location like Perris.

Maybe i'm in the wrong show... but i like skydiving for the people the time at a DZ, and the jumping from planes. not for a perspex tube 45 min brief and a jd weatherspoon meal.

I don't think it is vital to be in a tunnel, it is vital to get people into the sport proper. that is not done at airkix

[Bolas 5]

Wind tunnel simulators.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Remster 24]

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I don't think it is vital to be in a tunnel, it is vital to get people into the sport proper. that is not done at airkix

Several world champoin skydivers started as tunnel rats.

I dont know the details of this earth shattering deal BPA did with Airkix, but without getting into grandstanding, it seems like its a nice added way of promoting the sport to wuffos.

Remster

[MajorDad 0]

Do you know how precocious it is for a person with 60 jumps and 1 year in the game to say that Tunnels will doom the sport of skydiving?

The sport will change and evolve and be around for a long time.

I know many intermediate-level and high-performance athletes with national and international aspirations who swear by the value tunnel training adds to their program.

Skydiving is big enough for a lot of things including Cessnas, Turbines and Wind-Tunnels. I am personally looking forward to the Star Trek Transporter Beam so Scotty can Beam my 1,000 way up to 20,000 feet.

IMHO, the more variety, the better.

Everyone can find their own niche and/or explore new ones if they want to.

Beam me up, Scotty

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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If you're interesting in competition, and many are, then the tunnel is vital now, even in a fair weather location like Perris.

Maybe i'm in the wrong show... but i like skydiving for the people the time at a DZ, and the jumping from planes. not for a perspex tube 45 min brief and a jd weatherspoon meal.

I don't think it is vital to be in a tunnel, it is vital to get people into the sport proper. that is not done at airkix

In the US, you can have 30 minutes of training in a wind tunnel for $325 and an hour of time or 30 minutes from planes costing $3500 (2-way + camera) or $5500 (4-way + camera) spread over 3 days.

This assumes block tunnel time at $650 an hour, $22 jump tickets, $6 pack jobs, and enough rigs + packers + lift capacity to average 13+ loads a day.

Practically speaking its not possible to be a competitive skydiver without doing the bulk of freefall training in a wind tunnnel.

You can have fun as a recreational belly flier (say 10-point 4-ways) without using a wind tunnel and only a few hundred jumps, but interesting freefly formations are out of reach without tunnel time or years of jumping from planes (some friends and I finally managed to build a nice 4-way round that was half head-up and half head-down once we'd all reached 1000-1500 jumps apiece).

[Jewels 0]

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I'm firstly raging on the BPA for setting up shop with airfix. their idea behind it is that peoples first experiance of skydiving is in a tunnel... Rather than at a dropzone... you should in theory go to a dz for a skydiving experience.

Um, well, I don't have many jumps to speak of yet, but I can promise you that I wouldn't even have ONE if it wasn't for the tunnel. I also have a number of friends who started flying at the tunnel before they went off and got their licenses, and I hear that our tunnel instructors send a LOT of people to the local dz. I don't know about your area, but since I can name a few people who are now licensed skydivers because of the tunnel, I can't say I see things from your perspective.

TPM Sister #102

[KennC 0]

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you can have 30 minutes of training in a wind tunnel for $325

Good to know, where is this at? or is this pretty much standard. I want to spend some time in a tunnel just not sure where??

.. so are they pretty busy in the winter?

[billvon 2,396]

>When did this sport become about flying indoors . . .

It's about flying wherever you like. You could use that to denigrate any part of skydiving.

CRW - when did people lose the ability to freefall?
VRW - when did this sport become about being purposely unstable?
wingsuits - if you want to fly a wingsuit, buy an airplane! Skydivers are freefallers, not gliders.
teaching - people who sit inside teaching are losers who can't skydive themselves! "Those who do - do. Those who can't - teach."


>Was not the point of this sport to meet great new people. share
> our experience. sit at DZ's in crap conditions and get to talk crap, maybe
> even pass on advice to noobs.

You can do all that in a tunnel. (Yes, even sit around when it's broken and talk crap!)

>This means loads of demo's, Big Screens of fun jumps when
>spectators are on the ground . . . and a lot of you big time tandem
>boys and girls need to look how you are treating Students.

So it sucks that it's getting so commercialized, so the answer is to . . . commercialize it more?

If you like jumping, jump. If you like wind tunnels, go to wind tunnels. If you like sitting around not jumping, drinking and talking, go to a bar. It takes all kinds, and fortunately there's room for all kinds.

[damion75 0]

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And Funjumpers...

So you might get another couple of points at your AA meet. Well done. enjoy your medal. but seriously that can't be why 99.9% of you entered this sport.

We did, and I will enjoy it, thank you. You too may find that as you progress in the sport, the reasons that you started may not end up being the same as the reasons that you stay. You may also find that you stay for more than one reason / discipline...

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unless people start worrying less about your extra 2 points and more about thoughtless leadership, there will not be a sport left in this country.

Maybe I should start worrying... but not this week. If the sport goes belly up in this country, I'll just have to spend more time at Empuriabrava instead. It's warmer there anyway and they have nicer planes.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[mr2mk1g 10]

People get into the sport for many reasons. Some to compete. Some just to have fun.

Personally I'm in with those who started skydiving as a way to have fun. The more skills you have, the more fun you can have. Tunnel training vastly improves your skills. Thus tunnel training vastly increases the amount of fun you can have. It's as simple as that.

Those who are here to compete, well again, tunnel training is the fastest way to improve skills. They are therefore better competitors. I don't get the problem with that. Cricketers spend most of their training in nets. Footballers spend hours running up and down between cones. Baseball players spend hours in front of pitching machines. Golfers spend hours on the driving range.

Are these people playing cricket/football/baseball/golf? No. Do these things make them better at playing cricket/baseball/football/golf? Yes.

Is wind tunnel flying skydiving? No. Does it make people better skydivers? Yes. And then we're back to the top where the better you are at skydiving, the more fun you can have doing it.

I simply don't get the problem.

[crashtested 0]

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Do you know how precocious it is for a person with 60 jumps and 1 year in the game to say that Tunnels will doom the sport of skydiving?

The sport will change and evolve and be around for a long time.

Beam me up, Scotty

Doom and gloom was not the idea of this rant, skydiving will continue, i agree, but the fact remains both the uspa and the bpa, seem to have lost there bottle over this... If base can not be a part of the sport.. then how can wind tunnel. no rig, no aad's, low jumps etc.. this a double standard. make up there minds..

Someone is correct by saying it is a great coaching tool, for those who can't exit with out putting there feet through there lines. wonderful. well done you've cracked the sport.

It seems by the comments made that everyone is the next world champion, but i think your all killing the social side of this sport and the uptake WILL coninue to drop.

Maybe its time to brush off the base rig.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I don't see them as causing a problem for the social side either though.

In the US they're sticking their wind tunnels on their DZ's. So after your time's up you continue to socialise with all the other jumpers.

It also brings wuffos to the DZ who might just sign up for AFF now they know how cool freefall is.

In the UK that's not happened, but isn't Bedford just about to build a pool and stuff at their site to encourage jumpers to hang about and socialise? They certainly have a team room where you can turn up and hang out, even sleep in, just like most DZ's let you.

As for tunnel rats not being able to exit - that's THE reason why both the BPA and USPA have stuck to their guns that the clock on competition skydives starts the moment you leave the plane.

Some wanted to have the clock start in freefall so that teams were already up to terminal (just like in the tunnel), but both organisations have made sure to keep the exit in as part of the competition time. This way teams also have to learn how to be shit hot at exiting and turning points on the hill in sub-terminal air, meaning they can't compete effectively without also having lots of jumps under their belt.

Now the tunnels ARE having an impact on competetive skydiving in that us weekend jumpers simply don't stand a chance anymore. If I want to compete I HAVE to do a shit load of tunnel time to keep up with my rivals. Only a few years ago that simply wasn't the case.

Now is that a bad thing? Maybe in some ways. It could well put people off wanting to become a skydiver as they know they have little hope of ever being as good as they see on TV... but how many sports is that true of?

[crashtested 0]

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I don't see them as causing a problem for the social side either though.

In the US they're sticking their wind tunnels on their DZ's. So after your time's up you continue to socialise with all the other jumpers.

It also brings wuffos to the DZ who might just sign up for AFF now they know how cool freefall is.

In the UK that's not happened, but isn't Bedford just about to build a pool and stuff at their site to encourage jumpers to hang about and socialise? They certainly have a team room where you can turn up and hang out, even sleep in, just like most DZ's let you.

As for tunnel rats not being able to exit - that's THE reason why both the BPA and USPA have stuck to their guns that the clock on competition skydives starts the moment you leave the plane.

Some wanted to have the clock start in freefall so that teams were already up to terminal (just like in the tunnel), but both organisations have made sure to keep the exit in as part of the competition time. This way teams also have to learn how to be shit hot at exiting and turning points on the hill in sub-terminal air, meaning they can't compete effectively without also having lots of jumps under their belt.

Now the tunnels ARE having an impact on competetive skydiving in that us weekend jumpers simply don't stand a chance anymore. If I want to compete I HAVE to do a shit load of tunnel time to keep up with my rivals. Only a few years ago that simply wasn't the case.

Now is that a bad thing? Maybe in some ways. It could well put people off wanting to become a skydiver as they know they have little hope of ever being as good as they see on TV... but how many sports is that true of?

Yeah i see your point..

but having a mix up of dz's with windtunnels seems an awsome idea.. somthing that as of yet we don't have in the uk ( baring a couple of temp jobs )(black knights or hibs????)

It may seem that i'm against wind tunnels full stop.. this is not the case, i am against the social aspect that gets taken away when people leave a dropzone and spend there time at the tunnels. ( i know its there life there choice. i just dont' get why the bpa encourages this.

I entered the sport for as much the social aspect sense of comunity loking out for one another as i did the improving my skills quickly, rocking at every jump, and getting fs1 and b licence as quickly as possible.

I want to be the best skydiver i can be, but not at the expense of the social and community side of the sport!!

Ifyou start letting the big wigs into this sport, like with anything it will become corporate monkeyazised.

It'll come down to cost, profit, and what can we get away with. and a first experiance for a newbie in a wind tunnel will put them off the sport forever without him even being near a DZ..

[Bolas 5]

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If base can not be a part of the sport.. then how can wind tunnel. no rig, no aad's, low jumps etc.. this a double standard. make up there minds..

It's alot harder to do illegal tunnel flying then illegal BASE. You either have to break into the tunnel when it's closed or turn a jet engine on its nose and try to stay above it.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rehmwa 2]

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I entered the sport for as much the social aspect sense of comunity loking out for one another as i did the improving my skills quickly, rocking at every jump, and getting fs1 and b licence as quickly as possible.

interesting 'vision' of what the sport must be for everybody...

1 - why do you want to "improve your skills quickly" - it seems a bit uptight to have to learn things - lighten up and relax - better to just flail with each other and stick your tongue out at any camera - I can't believe how uptight that is, it's ruining the sport

2 - "rocking at every jump" - slow down dude, it's about "having fun" - don't put so much pressure on the others - better to just flail with each other and stick your tongue out at any camera - I can't believe how uptight that is, it's ruining the sport - fun killer - have a drink

3 - Getting licensed quickly - that's a lot of pressure, why not just have fun and enjoy the other people? plus it's just a way for the BPA to get your money. Who needs to be licensed just to go out and take airbaths and enjoy each other in this 'fun only' community


{{short of it is, different strokes, accept it}}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[LivingLegend 0]

Well I dont got a lot of sympathy.
As a brit (and BPA member) Ive visited several DZs in the UK and been treated like a piece of sh1t at most of them (Hib being an exception).

I took 6 tandems with a local BBC news crew and a local newspaper to C*******s once.
We were forced to pay for the privelidge of gifting them all of this free TV publicity 6 months in advance. We were spoken to and treated so apallingly that the TV crew left and refused to cover it, we all had a miserable experience and 6 more potential jumpers gone for good.

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1.618 !

[airtwardo 6]

Just give it some time, everything goes full circle.

Pretty soon people will be jumping to get ready for the tunnel ...instead of the other way around!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~