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Mike111

AAD - cost vs future progression

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Just a quick hypothetical que, was thinking the other day after jumping that as skydiving is becoming more and more expensive, and it seems mebership of clubjumpers is declining slightly, that there might need to be a rethink of cost.

Just say a governing skdiving body of whatever country decided to make AAD's or any other revolutionary life saving equiment mandatory in the future when the costs of skydiving has already increased dramatically. They could argue that it would attract more people to the sport by improving safety - yet it could force many people to quit due to the over head charges which in itself could greatly destabilise the sport with the closure of centres etc etc .

Thus this is a hypothetical question and may never ever arise but should it do so, where would the ethical balance be - keep freedom of each jumper/DZO to establish the self policing rule adn thus keep the cost down by either refusing to jump with one, which could keep some in the sport financially - or potentially save even more lives and jeapordise the numbers of our sport even more?

Just interesting to hear some thoughts.

Thanks.


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I'm not sure if the gear costs are the driving factor for a downturn in jumpers as much as the rising costs involved with life in general. Furthermore, I don't see the continually rising gear costs as being an individual factor in the ability to afford to skydive. I see the overall rising costs of the sport, all the factors combined, as being more important.

The aging aircraft fleet and the very high cost of new skydiving capable aircraft keep DZOs in a bind. They have to spend significant money keeping aircraft that are in some cases 50 years old flying or they have to spend significant money to purchase a new aircraft. Have you seen the price of a new or even reasonably new C-182, not to mention turbine aircraft.

Rising fuel costs are also a significant factor. With even 100LL pushing $4.00 in areas around the country it definitely trickles down to the jumpers. As of now tandem students subsidize our jump ticket prices, but that will not continue forever. We will see $40 fun jumper lift tickets within the next 10 years.

So where does that leave us? I believe that we're going to see current trends continue. That is the proliferation of vertical wind tunnels and people spending hours upon hours in them to hone their flying skills. This will continue in that people will physically jump less due to the costs. The rising costs will continue to cut out more of the sport's "tourists."

In conclusion, would a national organization's requirement of an AAD in all rigs cause a significant downturn in the future of our sport? No. There will be some people that do not jump because of that, but I don't see it as being a death nail. I'm willing to guess from my personal observations that 85% of the jumpers in the US have AADs and use them. Others choose not to jump with them and I put that at about 10%. My guess is that only about 5% of the jumpers out there do not have AAD due to the cost. Those same people aren't typically coming out to a DZ and putting 100+ jumps a year in their log books.

Me? I own a Cypres but is sitting in a box in my locker at the DZ. Why? I'm worried about setting off while swooping. The Cypres in my wife's rig only has 2 years left on it, so she'll get it at her next repack.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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>Just say a governing skdiving body of whatever country decided to
>make AAD's or any other revolutionary life saving equiment mandatory . . .

Well, since you are discussing entry costs into the sport, keep in mind that all students ARE required to have AAD's. Once they have their A license, then it becomes their decision - but I don't think the cost of a rig that they won't buy for 40-50 jumps (and specifically whether it costs $2400 or $2900) is going to be much of a determining factor in the decision to start skydiving.

Overall, though, I like the way it is now - mandatory in the beginning, then optional (presumably once they have a better comprehension of the risks and benefits.)

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They could argue that it would attract more people to the sport by improving safety



I think that the people who would be attracted to the sport when a device makes it safer are the people who will voluntarily use the device. I don't see the need to make it mandatory.
Owned by Remi #?

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I am not really going to comment on the aad part, but I know many many people who were all about jumping and then got a very dissapointing look on their face after hearing how much it would cost for gear, and then how much it would be to make a good amount of jumps to be in the sport truly. This is hands down the most expensive sport that I have ever been involved with. I do love so therefore I will make sacrifices si that I can jump often. Many who would love to jump simply are not going to spend that much money to get into any sport, much less it seems to just stay expensive with how much you want to jump. All the friends that have quit said it was over two factors: the money, and the people bitching about meaningless shit.
don't try your bullshit with me!!!

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This is hands down the most expensive sport that I have ever been involved with.



I'm going to guess that you haven't been involved with too many expensive sports.

Do you have any idea how much a good motorcycle costs? Or a sailboat?

Tons of people find the money to ride bikes and sail. A lot more people find money to do these things than skydive. I'm really skeptical that cost of gear is the deciding factor in skydiving.
Owned by Remi #?

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This is hands down the most expensive sport that I have ever been involved with.



You obviously play golf better than me. ;) Between trying to buy a better game with lessons and every new driver, wedge, putter, etc and the price of the 1000s of balls I have put in the water or hid under a bush, I could have made over 1500 jumps, bought two rigs, earned several ratings, and bought a ton of skydiving stuff... Oh wait, I did! :$

steveOrino

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they just must make that dissapointed looking face and tell me that for no reason. I have been involved in riding quads, skiing, wakeboarding, etc. and no they don't even come close. As I said I still jump it doesn't bother me, I wish it was cheaper, but oh well.
don't try your bullshit with me!!!

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Well, to put it in perspective, are we talking about skydiving gear or are we talking about fashion? Used gear is not too terribly expensive and certainly much less in comparison to the gear in other sports. But, I think that Aggie Dave hit on a good point. We may be experiencing a slight decline simply because other things are expensive. If most people have to choose between bread and a reserve, they will go with the bread.

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I do not think skydiving is really that expensive compared to other activities. What I think is keeping people out of the sport is "the once in a life time thrill" tandem for just 189$........people can make the skydive, let someone else take the responsibility, get the video and re-live it every time they sit in front of the TV. And the social factor keeps many people out of the sport. I think many people do not realize how brutal skydivers can look to a newbie!;)


"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

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..but I know many many people who were all about jumping and then got a very dissapointing look on their face after hearing how much it would cost for gear, and then how much it would be to make a good amount of jumps to be in the sport truly.



Yep...seen it hundreds of times...that forlorn look like, "Damn. There goes THAT idea."
[:/]
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Once they have their A license, then it becomes their decision - but I don't think the cost of a rig that they won't buy for 40-50 jumps (and specifically whether it costs $2400 or $2900) is going to be much of a determining factor in the decision to start skydiving.

Overall, though, I like the way it is now - mandatory in the beginning, then optional (presumably once they have a better comprehension of the risks and benefits.)



I have to say that I agree with a few things here. I offer the prospective of someone who is saving every penny to get into the sport of skydiving the very second he walks the line after graduating from grad school.

First off, I consider safety and the safety of others my number one concern. Why then should I even remotely consider NOT purchasing a rig without a device that may save my life? It's not even a question, I value my life and until I have the thorough experience to make an informed decision (a couple hundred jumps later), I consider it a necessity and know that I must fork out the dough.

Additionally, I found it difficult to pin-down even an estimate of how much skydiving actually costs....startup and long-term. It took me months after doing my first tandem, reading books on the sport, browsing webpages of USPA affiliated DZ's, and posting on DZ.com forums to get MOST of the information that I need. Much to my surprise, YES, jumping out of airplanes IS expensive....but like someone else mentioned already, it's easy to overlook other more common hobbies. Considering that my dad bought a $8,000 motorcycle and spends hundreds more a-pop on scenic trips with friends, it's not that absurd to want to spend the money to become a skydiver!

Just my 2 cents since the post is partially referring to people like me ;) !

On a side note, billvon mentioned $2400-2900. I'm budgeting $4000 for a used first rig with AAD and plan on buying right after my AFF training is complete. Am I way off here?

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On a side note, billvon mentioned $2400-2900. I'm budgeting $4000 for a used first rig with AAD and plan on buying right after my AFF training is complete. Am I way off here?


No, you are just looking at a higher tier of used gear than the 'rock bottom' that others are quoting.
As for long term costs, 100 jumps a year will cost you 2000-2500 (and rising), gear reserve packing and maintenance will be 150-300 per year. Everything else is optional.

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>I'm budgeting $4000 for a used first rig with AAD and plan on buying
>right after my AFF training is complete. Am I way off here?

Depends on what you are going for. If you'll be happy with an older Spectre, a half timed out AAD, a used reserve and a Vector II type container, then $2900 isn't hard. For $4000 you can get much 'nicer' stuff i.e. a newer main, a good-looking container etc. Generally I recommend the cheaper stuff to start out with since you probably won't have it long, and older stuff has already done most of its depreciating.

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Depends on what you are going for. If you'll be happy with an older Spectre, a half timed out AAD, a used reserve and a Vector II type container, then $2900 isn't hard. For $4000 you can get much 'nicer' stuff i.e. a newer main, a good-looking container etc. Generally I recommend the cheaper stuff to start out with since you probably won't have it long, and older stuff has already done most of its depreciating.



Well, just as long as it is a safe rig, that's what counts. I don't want to pay for an inspection of a "cheap" rig and come to find out it's not jump-worthy! I'm temporarily fine with something well worn-in, just as long as isn't "risky."

In the next week or so, I'll post more about this under the Gear and Rigging forum where it can be discussed in detail. I don't want to take us too much off topic....:|

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I was able to get a used rig for 1200 with out a cypres. The container was a Flexon, Raven Reserve, PD Sabre1 170 with about 1000 jumps. Throw in a used cypres and you are under 2000. Was the rig free-fly friendly? No, but I progressed in RW and by 140 jumps I was doing well on 12 to 14 ways. The sport can be as expensive as you want it to be, just like anything else. Instead of buying a new high end helmet buy a Pro-tec. Buy a used Alti from an up jumper. You are taught to jump safely without a audible, one less thing to buy. See if someone around the DZ has an old jumpsuit they want to get rid of. You might not be the most fashionable person around but when you are spending the money on jumps you develop your skills and when you get good they don't care what your rig looks like in the middle of a jump. Later on get an instructor rating, pass your wisdom on to new people and make a little on the side. On the lighter side if you are jumping all the time you don't have time to waste money on other unimportant stuff. ;)

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

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I was able to get a used rig for 1200 with out a cypres. The container was a Flexon, Raven Reserve, PD Sabre1 170 with about 1000 jumps. Throw in a used cypres and you are under 2000. Was the rig free-fly friendly? No, but I progressed in RW and by 140 jumps I was doing well on 12 to 14 ways. The sport can be as expensive as you want it to be, just like anything else. Instead of buying a new high end helmet buy a Pro-tec. Buy a used Alti from an up jumper. You are taught to jump safely without a audible, one less thing to buy. See if someone around the DZ has an old jumpsuit they want to get rid of. You might not be the most fashionable person around but when you are spending the money on jumps you develop your skills and when you get good they don't care what your rig looks like in the middle of a jump. Later on get an instructor rating, pass your wisdom on to new people and make a little on the side. On the lighter side if you are jumping all the time you don't have time to waste money on other unimportant stuff. ;)



Sure man, I can do used and re-used to save some cash upfront. I'm willing to wait out for a good deal after I finish AFF, so this gives me a lot of hope that I can save some cash and get in the sport quicker than I thought. And yes, AAD is a must...regardless of cost.

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> I don't want to pay for an inspection of a "cheap" rig and come to find
>out it's not jump-worthy!

If you don't mind the suggestion, find a rigger (or even a jumper who has owned gear for a long time) and go over what to look for. That way you can do the basic inspection yourself, and have a rigger do a more detailed one to look just for things you missed.

Things to look for:

Design. If you're going to free-fly, a velcro closed ROL type rig is not a good choice.

Sizing compatibility. Make sure that it's sized to fit the canopies you will use with it.

Velcro. It should still mate and hold well. If it's worn out and it's sewn onto the riser covers/flaps it's easy to replace for a small cost.

Stiffeners. All stiffeners should be intact; no broken ones.

Grommets. Grommets should not be worn and should be set flush with the material they are in. You shouldn't be able to get a thumbnail under the edge. If they are loose or not set well, they can _sometimes_ be re-set with the right die set. If they are worn they have to be replaced.

Hardware. Hardware should still have its plating and should not be bent, corroded or have any 'dark rings.' (Sometimes people "spin the rings" in their 3-rings; that can wear the ring in a distinctive pattern.)

Webbing. Some wear is acceptable, but any completely broken yarn is generally a no-no.

Anyway, that's just a basic list. It would be a good topic to bring up in Gear and Rigging; you'd probably get a much more comprehensive list. If you did a search I bet you'd get some good checklists.

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Things to look for...

If you did a search I bet you'd get some good checklists.



Sweet! I'm printing this "quick" checklist to save for later and will also do a search for some other more detailed checklists that can help me make my purchasing decision when I get ready to buy. Thanks man!

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Just say a governing skdiving body of whatever country decided to make AAD's or any other revolutionary life saving equiment mandatory in the future when the costs of skydiving has already increased dramatically. They could argue that it would attract more people to the sport by improving safety - yet it could force many people to quit due to the over head charges which in itself could greatly destabilise the sport with the closure of centres etc etc .



A Cypres costs about $11-$12/month to own in depreciation, maintenance, and batteries. Lift tickets to average 150-200 jumps a year are running $250-$400 a month. AAD ownership constitutes less than 5% of skydivings costs' to an active jumper.

Accounting for inflation, jump ticket prices are about what they were a decade ago (in spite of $4 a gallon fuel) and non-premium rigs (Wings today vs. Reflex in 1996) cost about the same.

The wind tunnel makes serious training a fraction of what it cost when we were stuck with airplanes. An hour of 4-way with video is $700 not $7000. 2-way freefly is $700 not $5000.

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I must disargee, Billvon...things to look for:

A good rigger to evaluate a rig you are considering.

Many very experienced jumpers overlook or are unaware of very important aspects of gear. Do not ever trust the seller. Go to YOUR chosen rigger. If your posted information is correct, I would not advise anyone of your experience level to evaluate a rig. I would ask that you be involved and learn, but not truly make a determination of air-worthiness.

My first rig was a double pin mirage, 28' Phantom and a Raven III. I paid $750 and I was skydiving.

Edit; I just want to add, Billvon, that your last post implies that he evaluate then include a rigger. Whereas I believe the inverse is a better approach.

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Yes, but once you have gotten past the initial cost it is way cheaper. I figured this 1200 for first rig sold got 1100 back 2500 for second sold got 2250 back, thrid and current 2000. All the mentioned except for first were used and only had container reserve and cypress. Added the main fro really cheap at 500, got a steal. I bought a camera system which was around 1000. Lost one camera system on a jump it was 1000 as well. Jumps in the first 2 to 3 yrs was near 10,000. near 14,000 spent on so far and not accounting for travel cost, repacks, etc. Which would be at least 1000 to 2000 more. When I can take out my ski boat, and pay for gas let say $60 which is really way too much. I have a day to two days of skiing and wakeboarding all day for that cost. The boat already cost me 3500 for initial cost. Now lets compare to a normal day of jumping. Gas is usually 25 for there and back plus food, plus jumps lets say 10 for the weekend which isn't shit, oh wait I go home in the evenings mostly so double gas and food and then you have jumps which lets say 200 just to be fair. Now that is a typical weekend except a lot have about 15 jumps but I'll say 10 for good measure. Now lets think of a boogie. I am not going to go unless I have at least 500 for jumps then all other costs, your getting close to a 1000 or more just for a weekend. Skydiving is not cheap to me, and is in no way cheaper than MOST other sports.
don't try your bullshit with me!!!

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