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jclalor

Reasonable age to jump solo

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I had my first combat jump at just 17.

As a father I would be okay with letting my daughter start jumping by 16. She will be 2 in March and Ive already purchased her her first whitewater kayak, paddle, life jacket, skirt and helmet. Plan to have her running whitewater this summer.

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Doug_Davis

I had my first combat jump at just 17.



Utterly incomparable to a student civilian sport parachute jump at age 16, in view of the quality, quantity and intensity of your training and supervision, not to mention the level of physical and psychological endurance and proficiency of skills you had to demonstrate prior to that jump.

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Andy9o8



Utterly incomparable to a student civilian sport parachute jump at age 16, in view of the quality, quantity and intensity of your training and supervision, not to mention the level of physical and psychological endurance and proficiency of skills you had to demonstrate prior to that jump.



LOL obviously you havent been through airborne school. Mine was a three week blur of running and getting screamed at. I wouldnt have ever used the terms airborne school and quality in the same sentence, heh heh.
We learned three things: PLF's, how to count to 5, how to pull the reserve handle if needed.....okay four, bicycle kick turns in the event of a line twist.
And while Im sure some DZ's run shit AFF or SL courses, I am just as sure there are other DZO's running quality courses.

And like I said there is no such restrictions on whitewater kayaking and plan to allow my children to follow me into that. To each their own.

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Doug_Davis

And while Im sure some DZ's run shit AFF or SL courses, as this accident demonstrates, I am just as sure there are other DZO's running quality courses.



This accident doesn't demonstrate anything about the quality of the course at this particular dz. Someone can go through the best course imaginable and know everything there is to know about skydiving and get hurt or killed if they don't take any action when they need to. Having the knowledge about a situation and having the maturity to deal with it are very different.
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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Andy9o8

***If we are going to base it on the prefrontal cortex then we should delay age of maturity. It is not fully matured until somewhere around the age of 25.



People should be temporarily sterilized & banned from marriage until age 35.

Wish somebody had done that for me...
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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The OP still hasn't responded to my question. I'm curious. I also said solo in an aircraft, in which the instructor would not be present. There are things that can go wrong in an aircraft and are not/can't be taught before a solo and the same goes for a skydive. There is just to much information.

I do agree with your comment about our society though, spot on.

I would consider 16-17 year olds on a case by case basis if it weren't for litigation concerns. As someone else put it, not every 16 year old should skydive, same goes for that 35 yr old too.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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lyosha


In my opinion, since the risk of damage to other people in skydiving is relatively low, it should be up to an individual and/or his guardian to decide on an appropriate age.



that's the point Airtwardo is trying to make - it isn't just about the individual with something like this.

If a half dozen adults go in on a dz over a year, the world isn't going to care more than they do now. It likely won't change the scenery of skydiving much.

If a half a dozen minors were to go in on the other hand, the press would go crazy:
Quote


Paper A
Child suicide camp in Eloy!



Quote


Paper B
Skydiving was the only way out for 'X'



If you can't see the potential headlines, you've not been around long enough.

The likelihood of big, powerful organizations stamping their whuffo boots all over a sport they know nothing about increases drastically.

Risk / Benefit - there's basically NO benefit to skydiving as an industry to jump at a young age. There's a huge increase in risk...

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Agree with most of the points listed by Yoink in this and his previous posts..

Nothing really good can come up with minors jumping from planes. Despite the fact that age not necessarily reflects the real ability of someone to deal with a certain issue/situation, I believe that 18 should be the legal age to allow people to jump by their own.

I believe that these 2 additional years from the 16 to 18, provides a lot of life experience to young teenagers.. driving, final exams at school, working, etc... all of this, together, helps to create a sense of maturity and responsibility, which definitely will help them in skydiving (for example)..

And I have to disagree with lyosha.. I believe that in Skydiving you have a high risk of damaging other people.. you just need to check some of the recent incidents related with canopy collisions, for instance..

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Andy9o8

***If we are going to base it on the prefrontal cortex then we should delay age of maturity. It is not fully matured until somewhere around the age of 25.



People should be temporarily sterilized & banned from marriage until age 35.

This. You win the internet.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Ya, agreed but one of the big things you left out is,... that also should be included, is the fact that the "ward" of the injured party frequently will sue anyone and everyone they can. The ward in many instances then is the "state," it's not always the parents and in many past incidents involving under 18 youth the state has stepped in regardless of the parents wishes ! This whole subject really begs the question of why the US of A DZ let this happen? So we all can debate the issues but it's kind of a moot point when most states are going to do what they will regardless of the individuals involved.
C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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SEREJumper

So does anyone know if you can sign a contract in OK at 16?



Here's what a quick search turned up: At the current time, only the following ten states may uphold parental waiver/releases if all of the three conditions listed above are satisfied and subject to the same degree of state contractual scrutiny as listed above : California, Connecticut, Georgia, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Florida, Massachusetts, and Ohio. However, it is believed that the trend for the acceptance of parental signed waiver/releases is gaining ground in other states.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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One important distinction in both flying, gliders and automobiles: the ability to obtain insurance . . . for the FBO, the owner of the aircraft used in flight training and automobiles. If we could get insurance for skydiving injuries incurred by student skydivers, I'd probably consider training a mature 16 year old that seemed on the ball. Without the ability to insure against the risk, no way.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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Southern_Man

***So does anyone know if you can sign a contract in OK at 16?



The same sight I googled earlier on assumption of risk and minors: With minors and the AOR defense, you should note that the minor must be capable of understanding the risks and must sign the assumption of risk portion of the waiver/release. Just like with adults, you can demonstrate assumption of risk by both the language in the waiver/release and by the verbal instructions or safety briefings given. Many courts have ruled that a seven year old child is capable of understanding the inherent risks involved in an activity if adequately explained.

This would very likely be a question for the jury, so much more expensive than the option to dismiss.

Note, I am not a lawyer and do not represent this site to be any more reliable than anything else you would find on the internet although it is consistent with my knowledge and other sites.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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yoink

***
In my opinion, since the risk of damage to other people in skydiving is relatively low, it should be up to an individual and/or his guardian to decide on an appropriate age.



that's the point Airtwardo is trying to make - it isn't just about the individual with something like this.

If a half dozen adults go in on a dz over a year, the world isn't going to care more than they do now. It likely won't change the scenery of skydiving much.

If a half a dozen minors were to go in on the other hand, the press would go crazy:
Quote


Paper A
Child suicide camp in Eloy!



Quote


Paper B
Skydiving was the only way out for 'X'



If you can't see the potential headlines, you've not been around long enough.

The likelihood of big, powerful organizations stamping their whuffo boots all over a sport they know nothing about increases drastically.

Risk / Benefit - there's basically NO benefit to skydiving as an industry to jump at a young age. There's a huge increase in risk...

I don't want to hijack this thread, sort of, but how many drop zones have current civil litigation pending, ongoing at the current moment? What sucks is that I can't post some of what I currently know at the moment, but many of you can travel to your local courthouse and before a settlement is reached and the non-disclosure, gag orders are signed, go to the clerk and get the public, limited records that are available!

Here are just a sampling of DZ's, parties, at the moment that I know for a fact have some sort of lawsuits against them: Eloy, DeLand, Perris, Monteray Bay, Jumptown, Z Hills, and this isn't even a complete list!!!!

All you have to do is head down to your local courthouse get the original complaint, and post it here for some very interesting reading. Before the silence order is entered and you can see the insanity that passes for law in this day and age.

I can only imagine what skydiving would look like if a few minors went in, thanks for tonight's nightmares yoink! :)C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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I've never really understood the legal idea that someone can drive at 16, but isn't legally responsible for their behavior until the age of majority (18 or 19). Then, they are legally responsible for their behavior, but can't buy a pistol or drink alcohol for another few years. But they can make medical decisions at 14.

:|

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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Quote

the "ward" of the injured party frequently will sue anyone and everyone they can. The ward in many instances then is the "state," it's not always the parents and in many past incidents involving under 18 youth the state has stepped in regardless of the parents wishes !



1. You don't mean "ward", you mean "guardian". The ward is the dependent party, such as a juvenile. The guardian takes care of the ward. Bruce Wayne was a guardian; Dick Grayson was his ward. You've got it backwards.

2. Vocabulary aside, you're totally blowing it out your ass, both here and in the related Incidents thread. As requested by others recently, please just stop already.

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davjohns

I've never really understood the legal idea that someone can drive at 16, but isn't legally responsible for their behavior until the age of majority (18 or 19). Then, they are legally responsible for their behavior, but can't buy a pistol or drink alcohol for another few years.



I got a full driver's license on my 16th birthday and ordered a drink in a bar on my 18th. That was in the 70s.

(After dreaming for several years about throwing my driver's license down on the bar counter, the bartender did not card me, leaving me totally devastated, but that is OT B| )

Now the drinking age is 21, and there is a fairly complex set of hoops to jump through before a full driver's license is issued at a minimum age of 18 (in my state). The interim provisional license (minimum age 16.5) does not keep them off the road, but it makes even a minor speeding ticket or other moving ticket a major deal in terms of more hoops to jump through, and/or license suspension.

It also effectively keeps their peers out of their cars, presumably eliminating teenage joy riding. At least for the first 5 months, making joyriding a privilege reserved for 17 year olds >:(

The point being that minimum ages for some things have been generally going up over the years.

I started jumping at age 17, with a waiver signed by a parent. And I was a walk in, not a DZ brat or known entity. Back then I don't recall any legal issues over the right of a parent to waive their child's rights? Is this a more recent innovation?

I got my minor aged son Scuba certified in the mid-90's and similarly signed a waiver on his behalf. And don't recall any controversy surrounding that. What is the deal now with scuba certs and dive site waivers?

Personally I am old school and I don't have any fundamental problem with the minimum 16 year age. I don't like the gov't interfering with family matters. And it served me well :ph34r:.

But it occurs to me that all this drama over the waiver for minors is effectively a sneaky back door way to raise the age limit. And like it or not it is consistent with other cultural changes over the years.

I'm not arguing the age limit, just pointing out the consistency with societal changes in general.

davjohns

I've never really understood..... they can make medical decisions at 14.
:|


As far as making medical decisions at age 14, I seem to recall that that was a direct result of the hugely political issue of abortion and abortion rights.

PLEASE, I hate to even mention that- I don't want to debate abortion. Only to point out that that reasoning is purely political in the truest sense, and instigated by a very specific political debate. At least that is how I "understand" the historical basis for that exception to the general age limits. Very unique circumstances.

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Andy9o8

***If we are going to base it on the prefrontal cortex then we should delay age of maturity. It is not fully matured until somewhere around the age of 25.



People should be temporarily sterilized & banned from marriage until age 35.

When the state steps in on behalf of the injured party, I really don't care what they call it, nor is my grammar perfect, nor do I really care. You claim to be a lawyer, given that you are in a position to actually post some of the many cases from places like the Buena Vista Companies, (Disney) Six flags, and the many times that the state has stepped in to litigate, especially in CA, regarding minors and the whole issue of implied contracts such as the ticket you receive at a ski area and such. You could take the time to actually comment on the topic at hand, you have done neither??? I think if some readers here could actually see some of the paperwork generated by some of these lawsuits and the age of majority is the subject they might walk away from this subject actually learning something of how out there in the real world these issues are actually handled.

The bottom line is with this subject of how to tell,...


well,... you can't tell. Until after they have jumped. Why some continue to support this sink or swim attitude is beyond me.

And this is the real issue that so many are ignoring at the moment.

I do enjoy the few that have brought up the fact that individuals as young as 14 can solo in a glider, but this is after exhaustive and through training, proving that they can cope with every contingency possible. This said this casts serious doubts about the efficacy of static line training. Especially considering that we have Tandem students that can practice canopy flying to their hearts content well before they are ever released to jump solo.

C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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