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jclalor

Reasonable age to jump solo

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In response to the 16 year old injured in what appears to be her first solo jump, I would think that if you are deemed not to have reached a level of maturity to vote, serve in the military, smoke, drink, serve on a jury, and so on and so forth, you are too young to decide to jump out of an airplane solo.

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mattjw916

I know people on their 30s that shouldn't do any of that, so what?

Arbitrary age is arbitrary...



I don't think the average 16 year old understands what their getting into, if you leave it to the parents, what parent doesn't think their kids are much more mature than the average kid.

I know of course that I'm in the minority on this issue, I also think it makes the sport look a little flaky.

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if you are allowed to drive and kill yourself on the road, or to take out a whole family with your car, you are allowed to huck yourself out of a plane.
That is for the legal part.

Now for the reasonable part, it is up to the DZO to decide wether a 16 or 35 or 67 yr old is allowed to board the plane or not
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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But the ages for all of those things vary across the world. Who is right? The Americans, where you are old enough to die in a foreign war three years before you are old enough to drink alcohol? It's not a real consistent starting point.

In the UK, often derided by US jumpers as a "nanny state", our limit is 16. It seems to work OK.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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I jumped on my birthday, when 16. I paid for it myself, by packing since the age of 14. I even jumped my own pack job on my first jump. No Titanium in me, 19years later.

The instructor told me before the time: "If I feel you are not ready, I won't let you jump".

He thought I was ready......

Anyways, you can do solo flying when you are 16. That is way more complex flying something that is powered, and listening to ATC etc.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

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jclalor

In response to the 16 year old injured in what appears to be her first solo jump, I would think that if you are deemed not to have reached a level of maturity to vote, serve in the military, smoke, drink, serve on a jury, and so on and so forth, you are too young to decide to jump out of an airplane solo.



We got both of our kids started at 16 and they did just fine. It was Mom & Dad that had the maturity issues. ;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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jclalor

***I know people on their 30s that shouldn't do any of that, so what?

Arbitrary age is arbitrary...



I don't think the average 16 year old understands what their getting into, if you leave it to the parents, what parent doesn't think their kids are much more mature than the average kid.

I know of course that I'm in the minority on this issue, I also think it makes the sport look a little flaky.You do realize that a 16yo has sailed around the entire earth alone, right? That's a bazillion times more complicated and dangerous than falling out of a plane and pulling a handle before impact. Hell, I joined the Army at 17 and was already blowing shit up barely past my 18th birthday. :D

This nanny-state bullshit and helicopter parenting trend is ridiculous.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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SEREJumper

So whats the age do you think a person should be to solo in a powered aircraft? How about a glider?



Big difference. In aircraft there is one on one training with someone who can complete the tasks at hand and handle emergencies if the student fails to do so until such time that the student has proven abilities.

In solo skydiving that doesn't exist.

Until the litigious nature of our society is changed drastically the age should be the age of majority.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Age is a crappy metric for judging capability.

the only thing it's good for is tying into liability / waivers.

It sounds like this particular girl just screwed up on dealing with a relatively simple malfunction. A brake fire on a lightly loaded student canopy from a SL exit at 3500 feet should give minutes of time to deal with the situation, either with a controlability check or a emergency drill.


There is no good way to assess how someone will react in a stressful situation - it all comes down to performance in the classroom.

My experience (as an extremely general rule) is that the older one gets, the more likely people are not to freeze under stress, and the less light-hearted they tend to be in the training.
It's certainly not always that way, but if that is a fair trend maybe we need to hold younger people to a higher standard on the ground - you can jump when you're 14, or 16, but you have to be flawless in the classroom and take this shit seriously.

The corollary to that is that instructors have to have the full backing of the DZ to say 'no, you're not ready based on what I saw' much more readily for a 14 year old than for a 30 year old who's signed a waiver themselves.


Personally, I think young people jumping should be the exception rather than the rule because it takes maturity to understand the situation - some people mature earlier than others or with exposure to different events but it's difficult to tie down to a specific age. So allow it, but only if they're exceptional...


...of course, that opens up a whole 'nother legal can of worms. :S


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yoink


the only thing it's good for is tying into liability / waivers. :S



If I ran a DZ in the U.S., I would only consider a 16 or 17 year old who was the child of a long time, regular skydiver (or of someone else who'd been intimately involved in the dropzone operations). It would have to be someone who grew up around the sport, with a parent or parents who knew the sport and the level of personal responsibility and accountability required.

The statements by the parents of the 16 year old in Oklahoma make it crystal clear that anyone else is a crapshoot in terms of whether they're likely to try to sue for a bad outcome. And of course, it's also a wildcard whether she'll do anything independent of her parents once she turns 18.

Regardless of whether the lawsuit is baseless or not, the DZ will have to spend a lot of time and energy trying to make it go away. Not worth it to let a handful of teenagers jump.

(Unfortunately, in the U.S., at least, the decisions have to be made based on liability, not on readiness, right or wrong...).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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diablopilot

***So whats the age do you think a person should be to solo in a powered aircraft? How about a glider?



Big difference. In aircraft there is one on one training with someone who can complete the tasks at hand and handle emergencies if the student fails to do so until such time that the student has proven abilities.

In solo skydiving that doesn't exist.

Until the litigious nature of our society is changed drastically the age should be the age of majority.

No more callers, we have a winner!


~ The actual point isn't whether someone 16,15, 14...is prepared & able.

It's that IF something were to happen to that jumper who's under the age of majority...the consequences are far and beyond those in the case of someone older.

Whine about a nanny state all ya want, but it is what it is.

How does this effect 'you' the average everyday general issue Skydiver?

Tough to make a jump at a DZ that's closed because of liability lawsuits...

90% of the general public think we're nuts anyway...that we need to be protected from ourselves. The drill is to stay 'under the wire' and away from bad publicity...THIS ain't how ya do that.

If the brake hadn't fired starting the sequence of tragic events...we wouldn't have heard about this.

If the brake fire & resulting consequences had happen to this young girl's mother instead of her...we wouldn't have heard about it.

But plain & simple fact is ~ This happened to someone who that in the eyes of the general public had no business being where she was, when she was...BANG - it's on the national news.

Remember folks - we get to play the way we do in this fun little world of ours, because the peeps out in the big world don't look too hard or give us much thought until something like this is hits the news.

Like it or not...fair or not, the big world peeps hold the power - THEY influence the rule makers.

In this day & age...you pick your battles wisely or you become extinct - THIS is a battle 'we' can't win...way too many more of THEM than US.

This is $kydiving...it's a business not a sport anymore. If you do a realistic cost/benefit analysis regarding the risk vs. reward in taking 'minors' up to skydive...you'll no doubt decide to pursue that market ONLY after running out of non-minors to teach.

Failing to do that...it's 100% guaranteed that eventually you will find yourself right in these crosshairs - on the national news about to get your ass sued.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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NWFlyer

***
the only thing it's good for is tying into liability / waivers. :S



If I ran a DZ in the U.S., I would only consider a 16 or 17 year old who was the child of a long time, regular skydiver (or of someone else who'd been intimately involved in the dropzone operations). It would have to be someone who grew up around the sport, with a parent or parents who knew the sport and the level of personal responsibility and accountability required.

The statements by the parents of the 16 year old in Oklahoma make it crystal clear that anyone else is a crapshoot in terms of whether they're likely to try to sue for a bad outcome. And of course, it's also a wildcard whether she'll do anything independent of her parents once she turns 18.

Regardless of whether the lawsuit is baseless or not, the DZ will have to spend a lot of time and energy trying to make it go away. Not worth it to let a handful of teenagers jump.

(Unfortunately, in the U.S., at least, the decisions have to be made based on liability, not on readiness, right or wrong...).

+1

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We trust them with cars (hopefully with the parents deciding if the child is mature enough). The litigation is the issue, not the maturity. Because if someone's kid wrecks their car, there's no one they can sue - if their kid gets hurt skydiving, there is.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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When I was a student, there was a 16-17 year old who was finishing up his A license before me. I don't think he did AFF in USA, went to New Zealand for that, and just had to knock out some solos to get his jumps in for his A license.

He did fine... had a couple of crappy landings in the process but we all did.

He showed up to the DZ with his AP Chemistry textbook in hand :P

In my opinion, since the risk of damage to other people in skydiving is relatively low, it should be up to an individual and/or his guardian to decide on an appropriate age. That having been said, I like my cars equipped with seatbelts and parachute containers equipped with reserves, so living in a "nanny state" isn't all that bad if you ask me.

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wmw999

We trust them with cars (hopefully with the parents deciding if the child is mature enough). The litigation is the issue, not the maturity.



No, I think the issue IS maturity, at least co-equal with liability. The pre-frontal cortex, which affects judgment and executive decisions, is still developing at ages 16 & 17. I know how often I've seen really, really stupid or reckless moves by drivers who were obviously teenagers; and I recall quite well how much I drove like an asshole when I was age 16, mainly because I (foolishly) thought, "I can do THIS MOVE (Hold my beer!) and it'll be OK".

I don't like sounding like an old fud, but the more I'm behind the wheel - almost 40 years now - the more I think the average 16 year old is too immature to be trusted with a car. Look at THIS CHART. You'll note that, even in "modern" countries in Europe and South America, the majority of countries' minimum driving age is 18. Maybe there's a good policy reason for that.

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Oh, I wouldn't disagree with increasing the driving age at all. But lately, I'd be even more down with cars that automatically jam cell phones :S

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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