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crashtested

Do you notice change when downsizing rigs?

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I know the wing loading question has been posted on here a load, i have checked most posts on the subject, but I have a question about the subject still.

For my 1st year and a bit in the sport I have downsized a lot, but only on my first downsize from a 340 to a 210 did i notice any real difference.

I jumped a Saber 210 once off student statis, then jumped a Safire 190 once on a B licence at around 60 jumps, and recently jumped a spectre 170 last week. But still don't notice any real change in performance in varible wind conditions 0 winds up to super high winds.

Some take longer to recover when Spiraling, and the 9 cell seem to have more glide, but apart from that they seem the same, maybe a little more twitchey on landing but it still gives you the options of correction and at a quicker speed!

Do other People have the same feelings when they downsize? or is it the type or canopys i have been flying?

My canopy coach seemed to think that 90% of a downsize is in your mind!!

Opinions?

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My canopy coach seemed to think that 90% of a downsize is in your mind!!



I think your canopy *coach* was trying to say that 90% of his mind was mush.

If you are going to be stupid you better be tough! :ph34r:

If you gave your correct exit weight in your profile then you should be at around 1.7 on the 170. Rock on man, switch to big turns soon, and get video!!! :o:D:D ;)
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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> then jumped a Safire 190 once on a B licence at around 60 jumps,
> and recently jumped a spectre 170 last week.

A Spectre will seem a bit 'larger' than its size due to its trim and planform. You will note a greater sink rate and slightly faster forward speed.

>My canopy coach seemed to think that 90% of a downsize is in your mind!!

History has shown that that is definitely not the case.

>i'm learning how to swoop at the momment

Don't take this the wrong way, but I would concentrate on learning to fly your canopy before you swoop. Once you can fly it well (and easily tell the difference between a Spectre and a Safire) then it might be a good time to start swooping.

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Crash,
Listen closely my friend because we are here to help not judge or critisize. At 94 jumps and a 1.7 wing load, starting to swoop?? It is not if, it is when...
I know it looks cool and you may even know guys doing it with just several hundred jumps, but you need to slow down a bit. You can be in this sport for a lifetime without injury if you are smart. I think what we are all saying here is swooping should be the last thing on your mind. Learning the capabilities of your current canopy is what you should be concentrating on. I can not imagine your canopy coach has knowlege of your intentions or condones it. If he does, you might want to seek out a AFF Instructor at your DZ and run this by him.

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I noticed a difference between the 230s and 190, but not a drastic change. It just made turning much more fun without feeling like your hanging from a tank.

When I switched from the student 190 to my 175, the first few landings seemed really fast and I was thinking "Oh crap I'm going to wipe out". I did. After the first two or three it was a lot easier.

I own and jump a 175. On occasions I've jumped a 160. I don't notice much of a difference, but it seems like I get a slightly faster turn when playing around at high altitude and I think I actually like the 160 better. Landing isn't any harder than on the 175, it just feels like a better canopy to me, but I'm not sure what type of canopy it was.

In reply to the posts about swooping with less than 100 jumps, I agree. That isn't only dangerous, it's nothing but reason for a DZO or DZM to ground you until you smarten up, before you wind up as a USPA fatality number.

Additional point: PERFORMANCE is not about what you're canopy can do for you, it's about what YOU can do with your canopy.
Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

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Is your Profile correct that you are currently jumping a 1.53 Wingloading at 94 jumps? And you asking about downsizing further?

If there is a Bounce Bingo Pool at your DZ, Can I buy a spot with your name?



I was thinking this guy was a bit like nipplboy reincarnated. :D

That said, I hope he makes smart decisions.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Thanks to the advice from all, i will definetly take it on board... :P

I was though still intrested in other peoples experiance, maybe from a few people who have made bigger downsize's than i have i.e 190 to a 150 or somthing to the like.

I am a bit supprised by the swoop advise i must say... i have been getting my canopy to dive on 90 - 180 degrees turns at the momment leaving loads of room for the canopy to recover, getting a bit more speed out of the canopy, but not touching my rear risers at all. I'll post a vid!!! its not very extreme at all.... pretty lame ;) but you have to start somewhere.

Just out of curiosity when did people start getting in to swooping, and still curious about peoples experiance when downsizing.

BTW i have lost some fat / Muscle i'm now 285lbs with gear.

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Is your Profile correct that you are currently jumping a 1.53 Wingloading at 94 jumps? And you asking about downsizing further?

If there is a Bounce Bingo Pool at your DZ, Can I buy a spot with your name?



After he made post #12, I'll take a few squares in the bounce bingo game.:|
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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Is your Profile correct that you are currently jumping a 1.53 Wingloading at 94 jumps? And you asking about downsizing further?

If there is a Bounce Bingo Pool at your DZ, Can I buy a spot with your name?



After he made post #12, I'll take a few squares in the bounce bingo game.:|



bounce Bingo rules..
Ok jumps 100 upwards.. you can bet on any number up to 300. i.e 100 or 299 etc etc
I'll set up a pay pal account so everyone can play..
If by end of the year i'm still running marathons i win the kitty.

put me down for 298:P

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>maybe from a few people who have made bigger downsize's than
>i have i.e 190 to a 150 or somthing to the like.

I went from a PD190 to a Sabre 150 at the 500 jump mark. Scared the crap out of me for a few weeks until I got the hang of it. Took another few hundred jumps to get good at flying it. From there I went to a Triathalon 135, a Safire-1 129, a Crossfire 119, then finally to my current canopy, a Nitro 108. I didn't get canopy coaching, and thus the transitions took about 3000 jumps total. I could probably have cut that down to 1000 jumps with good coaching.

>i have been getting my canopy to dive on 90 - 180 degrees turns at the momment . . .

How are you 'making your canopy dive?'

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I am a bit supprised by the swoop advise i must say... i have been getting my canopy to dive on 90 - 180 degrees turns at the momment leaving loads of room for the canopy to recover, getting a bit more speed out of the canopy, but not touching my rear risers at all.



Oh well, if you're not landing on rears then it's totally not dangerous like at all.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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I haven't made a ton of downsizes since I started. I'm actually in the process of downsizing right now. I started off, as a student, jumping Navigators ranging from 260s down to the 200 we had. From then I jumped a PD190 9 cell a handful of times, a Spectre 170 a handful of times, and then bought my own gear which was a Triathlon 160. My WL on the Tri 160 wasn't even at 1:1.

The biggest difference in those initial downsizes I noticed were mainly the rate of turn being faster and having slightly more speed on landing, which to me, made landing easier and more predictable.

I had jumped a 135 Hornet before I ever jumped a 150. It was a pretty noticeable change for me on those first few jumps, but I wasn't scared or nervous. I quickly jumped up to a Pilot 150 and have been jumping that for close to 300 jumps now. I have also jumped 135s and 150s (both Sabre 2s) and a 120 original Sabre. I haven't really noticed much of a difference going from the 150 even down to the 120. Actually, the biggest difference I noticed in the lower range was a Pilot to a Sabre2 in the same size. Pilots turn a whole lot faster and I think are faster flying canopies overall - the recovery arc is just a hard thing to have when you are learning how to swoop.

I would definitely be happy where you are now, if not considering going up a size or two. Focusing more on basic skills and building a strong foundation on those types of skills and drills will only benefit you in the long run when you are ready to start working on how to swoop.

By the way.. I started touching my front risers at about jump 200. No turns, just double fronts on final. I still don't touch my rears (on landing anyways..) and have only just recently started building up a turn bigger than 90 degrees. Swooping is no joke and at around 100 jumps, I think other skills will be better for you to focus on.

Stay safe man.

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Obviously Sam has been the recipient of some poor teaching and a little misinformation, or possibly he is just retarded, so leave him alone.

All kidding aside, I went

288-244 nothing
244-220 the Fury rocked
220-200=0
200-120 holy shit at 160 jumps
120-105 big dif at 700 jumps
105-120 after liquified left femur, broken hip(6), ruptured spleen, shattered skull (6) (through a Factory Diver). loss of short term memory, brain surgery to repair the torn dura layer, I could go on and on.
120-89 3000+on my 89s going to a 90 in the spring.

So, if you want to continue down this path go ahead. I was not a runner but a long distance cyclist and in top condition. I was a hot pilot and making 500 jumps a year. My "I can do it, it's easy for me" attitude got me big time. You may be lucky enough to get away with it, but don't expect these people to let you get out of here without a firm shake.

I have done the stupid stuff and will never recover fully from it. This is serious stuff, be careful. Stop where you are, learn the canopy. I can do more with a 150 then 95% of the people jumping cross-braced. I would say That the way to go is to embarrass the people jumping X-braced, with your Safire 190. Then when you can do that, downsize and show'm how it's done.

Good luck.
HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

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Obviously Sam has been the recipient of some poor teaching and a little misinformation, or possibly he is just retarded, so leave him alone.

All kidding aside, I went

288-244 nothing
244-220 the Fury rocked
220-200=0
200-120 holy shit at 160 jumps
120-105 big dif at 700 jumps
105-120 after liquified left femur, broken hip(6), ruptured spleen, shattered skull (6) (through a Factory Diver). loss of short term memory, brain surgery to repair the torn dura layer, I could go on and on.
120-89 3000+on my 89s going to a 90 in the spring.

So, if you want to continue down this path go ahead. I was not a runner but a long distance cyclist and in top condition. I was a hot pilot and making 500 jumps a year. My "I can do it, it's easy for me" attitude got me big time. You may be lucky enough to get away with it, but don't expect these people to let you get out of here without a firm shake.

I have done the stupid stuff and will never recover fully from it. This is serious stuff, be careful. Stop where you are, learn the canopy. I can do more with a 150 then 95% of the people jumping cross-braced. I would say That the way to go is to embarrass the people jumping X-braced, with your Safire 190. Then when you can do that, downsize and show'm how it's done.

Good luck.



Hey l.O.

Do you take students ;)
I should have put my number of speed flying jumps down. that may make more sense to people who are nice enough to worry about my canopy size. (Its cool to see people still look out for one another)

Really i am super careful out there, i have jumped 6 or more 11500 footers just to spend time getting to know my canopy. Also attended 3 canopy related courses, normally pull high to give me more time under canopy, and go through a fairly anal routine of trying at least 6 things every jumps, Harness turns, riser turns, stalls, spirals, flat turns.. then on landing down winders and cross winders.
I took to canopys like a duck to water, I do push myself a lot but that is me.... But again thanks to everyone for there advise.. Seriously l.O do you take students :) you could lend me you 89 B|

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Really i am super careful out there, i have jumped 6 or more 11500 footers just to spend time getting to know my canopy.



It's statements like that which piss people off. You aren't going to convince anyone on here or win the argument that you know what you are doing. Not on here. It just isn't going to happen.

For what it's worth, 6 jumps, even from full altitude isn't a whole heck of a lot! I do 6 hop'n'swoop jumps on a monday after work, every week and I don't come on here proclaiming that it makes me an expert.

Also, the concept of "being careful" and "swooping" don't exist. For the most part they are mutually exclusive of one another. Doesn't mean people shouldn't swoop, just that, its dangerous no matter how you cut it.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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Really i am super careful out there, i have jumped 6 or more 11500 footers just to spend time getting to know my canopy.



It's statements like that which piss people off. You aren't going to convince anyone on here or win the argument that you know what you are doing. Not on here. It just isn't going to happen.

For what it's worth, 6 jumps, even from full altitude isn't a whole heck of a lot! I do 6 hop'n'swoop jumps on a monday after work, every week and I don't come on here proclaiming that it makes me an expert.

Also, the concept of "being careful" and "swooping" don't exist. For the most part they are mutually exclusive of one another. Doesn't mean people shouldn't swoop, just that, its dangerous no matter how you cut it.



I only ask the questions because i love the sport, and think that knowledge and advice will make me a better skydiver, Dropzone is such a good forum to get peoples advice on a variety of subjects as there is so much knowledge from so many different people with a range of experiance and ability.
Some good some bad.
You would be crazy not to ask questions if it meant you were going to improve your ability by doing so.

I feel sorry for you, if that pisses you off.

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Asking questions isn't pissing anybody off. I think the thing that irritates a lot of us on here is exactly what Fast said - you making a statement, after talking about swooping and your basically ludicris wingloading at such a low number of jumps, which is supposed to justify the fact that you are putting yourself into sketchy situations that you shouldn't be in with 100 jumps.

I've already given my advice. I just have one question. Do you honestly think that a 1.7 WL, at 100 jumps, is safe? What do the people at your DZ think about that?

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