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CSpenceFLY

Announcement of Board Vacancy Mideastern Regional Director

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No, Kip paid the price for that tandem with a 90 day suspension. I can't speak for Kip, but I believe Kip has resigned because he has the backbone to stand for what he believes. If you want the real facts, call Kip, he can give his side of the story. Those of us, who know what has happened, support Kip, and believe he has done the right thing.

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I can't speak for Kip



No, you can't. And apparently, Kip won't speak for himself.

I have no interest in calling him. He asked to be elected by the region. If he won't speak in public or contact the people who elected him as a group that's his decision.
Owned by Remi #?

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I'm curious too. I know there have been a lot of DZ politics up in that area lately, with so many DZ's around and Kip running the newest one.



Sounds like you're wondering / implying that Kip's resignation might be because he manages a new DZ and is under some political pressure. That's bullshit.

AFAIK, Kip is resigning because he took a 12 year old on a tandem without a waiver and then tried to file a waiver after the fact to cover his ass and he got busted doing it.

Discussion here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2995711;search_string=worst;#2995711




Well, Kelly, it's really hard not to get the impression that there is politics involved. It's actually worth reading the thread you linked. It starts with a pathetically concealed attempt at getting the word out about Kip violating USPA procedures, and the author - who incidentally is someone from an older, already established Ohio dropzone (also incidentally yours...) - admits soon thereafter that getting the word out was his purpose.

If I understand the situation correctly, he took a terminally ill person on a tandem skydive after getting approval from the equipment manufacturer, but without getting a waiver from USPA. He was thus covering the safety aspect but obviously NOT his ass. Which is why he got suspended.

That punishment doesn't seem to be enough for some people, as the story is still being kept alive (not openly though, but with innuendos, see the thread you linked). Looks to me like some people have been working hard to build and maintain pressure on Kip. I'm new to the sport and it's soap operas, but I do recognize politics when I see it.

So maybe you SHOULD call Kip if you are interested in understanding why he resigned - otherwise one might get the impression that you are actively taking part in the very politics you are saying doesn't exist...
---
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
~ Bertrand Russell

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Sounds like you're wondering / implying that Kip's resignation might be because he manages a new DZ and is under some political pressure. That's bullshit.


That is false...Kip resigned cause he DIDN'T follow the guildlines of a RD.....

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Well, Kelly, it's really hard not to get the impression that there is politics involved. It's actually worth reading the thread you linked. It starts with a pathetically concealed attempt at getting the word out about Kip violating USPA procedures, and the author - who incidentally is someone from an older, already established Ohio dropzone (also incidentally yours...) - admits soon thereafter that getting the word out was his purpose.



The only thing pathetic is that fact that it happened. You are sadly confused to "blame" the guy who blew the whistle on the RD who **BROKE THE RULES** NO MATTER WHERE HE IS FROM.

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If I understand the situation correctly, he took a terminally ill person on a tandem skydive after getting approval from the equipment manufacturer, but without getting a waiver from USPA. He was thus covering the safety aspect but obviously NOT his ass. Which is why he got suspended.


And THAT is why he shouldn't be a RD........


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That punishment doesn't seem to be enough for some people, as the story is still being kept alive (not openly though, but with innuendos, see the thread you linked). Looks to me like some people have been working hard to build and maintain pressure on Kip. I'm new to the sport and it's soap operas, but I do recognize politics when I see it.


Then YOU are confused.......breaking the rules is *breaking the rules* There was guildlines in place to do what he did....he *choose* NOT to go by them. As a RD, he should face the outcome.

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So maybe you SHOULD call Kip if you are interested in understanding why he resigned - otherwise one might get the impression that you are actively taking part in the very politics you are saying doesn't exist...


You have no ideal of ethics or laws on how things work..NOR should you tell Kelly what she should do. You are VERY confused to protect somebody who broke the rules...and if you know *anything* you know that Sherry pulled for Kip to be RD, not fought against it..........WAKE UP....I know you haven't been in the sport much, but you can't come in here running your mouth when you obviously don't know what is going on.

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>If he won't speak in public or contact the people who elected him as
>a group that's his decision.

I think it's a good idea for USPA representatives to not post on here. Their time is better spent talking to people directly, emailing them or calling them, than responding to the crap that gets flung their way here.

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You have no ideal of ethics or laws on how things work..NOR should you tell Kelly what she should do. You are VERY confused to protect somebody who broke the rules...and if you know *anything* you know that Sherry pulled for Kip to be RD, not fought against it..........WAKE UP....I know you haven't been in the sport much, but you can't come in here running your mouth when you obviously don't know what is going on.



Wow, reads like you are yelling at me. Sorry if my lack of 'ideal of ethics or laws on how things work' caused me to offend you. I made clear that I don't know the soap opera. I just pointed out that based on earlier posts it seems utterly ridiculous to argue that there has been no politics involved. Your harsh response actually strengthens my suspicion.

At the end of your post I still don't know 'what is going on' (which is basically the definition of innuendo). But then again, I might not be smart/experienced/whatever enough to understand anyway.

EDIT:

After reading this again, I think I understand: I should have just kept my mouth shut. Ironically, that also is the Litmus test for whether or not an issue is political...
---
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
~ Bertrand Russell

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The mideastern region just lost a damn good RD and without a doubt the whiners and the complainers who don't like Kip will continue to be the most vocal but will also continue to be the minority opionion.

Since it was brought up AGAIN. Let me state the majority opionion regarding the underage tandem jump with the terminally ill student. It was blown way out of proportion. In the past, the USPA BOD has granted MANY waivers for the same set of circumstances. Would they have done it again? Common sense says that they would have given the waiver to a tandem master with THOUSANDS of jumps in an effort to give some pleasure to a terminally ill patient. NO the waiver wasn't on file prior to the jump but I say again the majority opinion was one of support knowing that the waiver was a minor technicality
Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.



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Speaking to people in the region is a smart use of time, responding to posts by random people in regions all the way on the other side of the country is a poor use of time for a Regional Director when it is a regional issue.

I'm yet to find a RD in this area (in the 6 years I've cared what is going on) that has failed to respond to a direct phone call or email. Direct communication allows for a direct conveyance of your message intead of it getting distracted and carried into 100 directions by parties that have no interest in the conversation other then to stir the drama.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I think it's a good idea for USPA representatives to not post on here.



I didn't insist that he had to post here, Bill. I suggested that he's capable of contacting the people who voted for him one way or another.

He managed to get the word out to the region that he wanted to be RD without posting it here... he's clearly capable of communicating.

He didn't call me personally to ask for my vote. Why should I call him personally to hear his side of the story?
Owned by Remi #?

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it's really hard not to get the impression that there is politics involved. It's actually worth reading the thread you linked. It starts with a pathetically concealed attempt at getting the word out about Kip violating USPA procedures, and the author - who incidentally is someone from an older, already established Ohio dropzone (also incidentally yours...) -




Nice try pal.

Your assertions here hold no more water than mine. Yes, I may be based at a DZ that competes with Kip's DZ, and one could expect that all of my statements would lean toward the negative.

Where you and your statements get bitch slapped is in your profile, where you reveal that you are actually based out of Kip's DZ. Much like in my case, one could expect that all of your statements would lean toward the positive.

The end result is a stale mate, where your credibility in this case is no better than mine. We could go on for hours, or stop right here. In the end, the outside observer knows our affiliations, and will take both of our comments with a similarly sized grain of salt.

In this case, politics played no role. I backed Kip to run for RD, and voted for him. I clearly explain my position on the legal liability of Kip remaining the RD in the other thread. I have no personal relationship with the man, nor any hard feelings toward him in any respect save for his judgement, as an RD, in this situation.

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I think it's a good idea for USPA representatives to not post on here. Their time is better spent talking to people directly, emailing them or calling them, than responding to the crap that gets flung their way here.



Well, for starters, he's no longer a representative of the USPA.

Furthermore, the scuttle-butt about his stepping down is that there are bad things going on with the USPA and the BOD, bad enough that he wants no part of it. Let's assume that this is true.

So he steps down, but refuses to offer up the details. Things are so bad that he cannot see through his term, but not so bad that he needs to share these details with his fellow jumpers, the ones who voted him in as RD, the ones who will be affected by the horrors that now lurk on the BOD.

We both know that if things were really that bad, and he was any kind of stand-up guy, he could certianly put together a synopsis of the situation, post it as a statement, and simply not respond to the thread in any way.

By not sharing these details, he brings into question either their validity, or the quality of his character.

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Dave,

congratulations on your discovery. I do hope the third party observer will take what everyone says here with a grain of salt. In fact, the salting was the purpose of my first posting here.
If you really believe that politics has played no role in all of this, I would invite you to explain to me what definition of politics you are using and then try to convince me. I'll buy the beer.

Stephan
---
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
~ Bertrand Russell

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Sure, speaking publicly and involving people who might otherwise not know what's going on, is just a total waste of time.:S



Hey JP,

Have you recently watched the movie 'Mr. Smith Goes to Washington'?
It's a movie by Frank Capra - made back in 1939.
He always liked relating his movies to Mr. Lincoln. The movie was made at the beginning of the war (aka WW2) before the US ever got into it.

The ending is kinda 'unrealistic' - expecting the bad guy to fess up - all on his own,
but the rest of the movie is true to life - even today.
Hope that wasn't a spoiler and that you go watch it again.

Lemme know what you think.......

Email me your cell# so I can touch bases with you at the BOD mtg.
I actually have a pre-paid cell number now.
Wonder how many minutes I need to get on it for the next mtg?

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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I would invite you to explain to me what definition of politics you are using



I can't tell you what I wasn't doing. I can tell you that there is no 'power struggle' going on. I have no alterior motives. As I stated I have no personal feelings toward Kip, good or bad.

I've also made no secret that I'm not a fan of the USPA. I don't really give a rats ass about who's the RD, on the BOD, or the EC. I think they're all misguided, and wasting everyone's time.

However, given that I'm required to be a member to jump at any of my local DZs, I'm certainly going to speak up when I see actions unbecoming of a representative of the organization that appear to not have been delt with in a proper manner.

After the fact, the man was a liability to the organization. The credibility of the USPA, and in turn skydiving in general rides on the actions and reputations of our elected officials. These are the people that we as a group have pushed to the front of the class as the best we have to offer.

With this incident on his record, he no longer has the credibility or the reputation to fullfill his seat. In the case of any future incidents that he may have been a part of, his history would reflect very poorly on him in the case of litigation, but it would also reflect very badly on the face of the USPA, for initially having such a person in a position of authority, and for allowing him to retain his seat after the first incident.

It's a CYA move for the USPA. The same USPA I have to send my $50 each year, the same USPA I will feel free to comment on whenever they drop the ball.

Case in point, I have expressed an almost identical sentiment on the issue of Jan Meyer, and her future on the BOD. She does not run a competing DZ in my area, I don't think she runs a DZ anywhere. In truth, I don't even know what region she lives in. It doesn't change my view on the situation, nor my willingness to speak up.

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The nature of the skydive was posted by John Hart on another thread, so I am not going to re-write it.


Fact: I did an underage tandem.

Fact: When the pictures were release, I call the President and notified him theat I did the jump, and offered my resignation so that this type of BS would not happen. The President told me that it was not necessary and I should full fill my obligation to the BOD. I also called up other members of the BOD and some called me. I never denied do the jump, nor did I try to submit false paper work.

Fact: The President called me and ask if I would give a verbal ok to start the proceedings with out sending me a formal letter, and I said yes.

Fact: A certain member of the EC did the investigation and at the proceedings bowed out from voting or making any comments. From what I was told from another member of the EC, one of the members of the EC stated the 90 days is what a normal member would get and that was sufficient. Once the EC gave me my punishment, the President called me and asked if I wanted to appeal it, and told him no. I accepted!

Fact: General Members new my punishment before the BOD, because at least two members were running their mouth. And this was proven by the phone calls I received from AirOhio jumpers and some out west, and one at our dz. Thats pretty un-professional. And I was told that your dz already had signatures on a petition before I had resigned (?).

Fact: If members of this region want to know what is going on, they should contact me, it is not my responsibility to contact everyone in the region, nor is it the right thing to do to post it here on the site.

I can't tell you what I wasn't doing. I can tell you that there is no 'power struggle' going on. I have no alterior motives. As I stated I have no personal feelings toward Kip, good or bad.

Fact: This is BS, on a earlier post (months ago) you posted that you and I have had several conversations. You made a lot of un-true comments. I have only been to your dz twice. The first time was with my wife and friend. We made two jumps and left. We did not really talk to anyone other the your dzo. The second time was for the AIC. And I did not talk to anyone because the dz was closed. I don't even know who you are, other then what people have told me.



However, given that I'm required to be a member to jump at any of my local DZs, I'm certainly going to speak up when I see actions unbecoming of a representative of the organization that appear to not have been delt with in a proper manner.

Fact: most of this is true, but there was a fatality last month or in Nov, and the jumper was not a current USPA member, and I don't see anything happening. You should speak out, but, you should speak out on all matters not ones that effect you personally or your home dz.


After the fact, the man was a liability to the organization. The credibility of the USPA, and in turn skydiving in general rides on the actions and reputations of our elected officials. These are the people that we as a group have pushed to the front of the class as the best we have to offer.

Fact: The student was over 5 foot tall and over 200lbs, there were no safety issues. Also what is the DZO going to sue himself? If something were to happen USPA would not be sued, everyone else would, and sense all the other players knew. This was strictly a paper work issue with USPA. People that know me, that this is not common practice for me, and I am very safety oriented. So until you want to call me and talk to me like a man one on one, this all you will know




With this incident on his record, he no longer has the credibility or the reputation to fulfill his seat. In the case of any future incidents that he may have been a part of, his history would reflect very poorly on him in the case of litigation, but it would also reflect very badly on the face of the USPA, for initially having such a person in a position of authority, and for allowing him to retain his seat after the first incident.

Fact: One of your EC members was sent a letter by the manufacture and a tandem examiner, 3 years ago requesting the suspension of a tandem I for having a Cypress fire and several other incidents. Your ND and EC member and the BOD did nothing. This is more of a problem, this was a safety issue, not paper work.


Fact: One thing I have learned working with the BOD is that DZO's and Course Directors should not be on the BOD at all, it is a conflict of interest. If look at all the motions that have been voted on, you will see a lot of obtainments because it is a conflict of interest.

Fact: I will post anything else about this matter, if you want to talk to me about this please feel free to call me.

Fact: This thread should be used to find a good replacement, not bash people with out knowing all the facts.



AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

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> Sure, speaking publicly and involving people who might otherwise
> not know what's going on, is just a total waste of time.

No. Speaking publicly to get the word out is a good use of time. Responding to posts from people with axes to grind is a waste of time.

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I'm curious too. I know there have been a lot of DZ politics up in that area lately, with so many DZ's around and Kip running the newest one.



Sounds like you're wondering / implying that Kip's resignation might be because he manages a new DZ and is under some political pressure. That's bullshit.



I didn't mean to imply anything, I honestly had no idea what had happened and was curious. Just made an observation, based on my limited knowledge of who Kip is. I have been to his DZ and was quite impressed. Thank you for speaking up and bringing to light the reason behind the resignation. And thank you Kip, for posting as well. I didn't mean to stir the pot.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

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Does anyone have a canidate in mind?



Looks like it's another DZO or the left nut of a DZO will be the choices for the BOD to make. Should be an interesting vote with some BOD members having, yet again, some conflict of interest, IMHO, (no surprise there) with both parties who have expressed an interest in this hot seat.

And Kip, while you maybe known as a "safety guy" I think it is safe to say, you still knew the rules and you were elected to up hold the rules, you decided the rules didn't apply to you and you took a underage tandem without the proper paperwork on file, regardless of the fact that you assume MAYBE the BOD would have waved the age issue and given you a waver to do the jump, you choose to bypass the rules and procedural guide lines and you did the jump, knowing full well you were busting a BSR's that you were to be upholding as the RD.

This is all fact, is it not?

So all the BOD members who were sent the photos of you doing the jump are all out to just "get you" Butcher, Bangs, Meyer's, Mullins, Worth, and the rest of the BOD are all full of shit lier's and out to hang you over a some paperwork along with the other area DZO's and membership that called for your removal. That is paperwork you as a chair holding member of the S&TA committee, RD, S&TA, I/E, TDM-CD, AFF-CD, S/L-CD, IAD-CD and the rest of your glory awards, YOU clearly knew was wrong and you can't play the stupid card, here!

(while I do think many of the named BOD members are in fact full of shit and liers, in this case I don't think so, photos don't lie.)

Yet we as members are to beleive that your getting railroaded here and you did nothing wrong is total bullshit and to expect the membership to "call you up like a man" and get your side of the story is also a ton of bullshit, "did ya ever hear, don't do the crime if you can't do the time", why don't you man up and admit you fucked up and got busted doing something you knew better as a sitting BOD member and chair on the safety and training committee, so now you need to take your lumps and quit your crying about it already , your lucky to be leaving with your ratings and course director ratings intact. Some members think you should be striped of your ratings.

After all you ran around the region asking to be voted in to office and you knew the people who voted you in expected you to follow the rules, did you not?

Watching you and your buddys try to sugar coat this is funny as hell and you guys should get a award for the best comedy of the year. You know sometimes when you try to blow smoke up someones ass, they fart and you end up getting shit on your face.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Fact: One thing I have learned working with the BOD is that DZO's and Course Directors should not be on the BOD at all, it is a conflict of interest. If look at all the motions that have been voted on, you will see a lot of [b]obtainments because it is a conflict of interest.



I'm not familiar with an "obtainment?"

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what exactly is the "big deal" of him doing a tandem without having all the paper work filled out at the time? obviously he wasn't trying to hide the fact because photos were taken. I think it's pretty admirable that a person would do something for somebody that has a terminal illness at that age.

as for his resignation, thats his business. now theres a slot open for someone to kiss ass to the other DZO's on the B.O.D.

"kip, you rock !!!!!!!!! "
"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

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It's called being held to a higher standard when one runs for and wins a seat on the national board, you don't get to pick and choose what rules apply to you and your boss who owns a DZ in your region, who just happends to have a sick kid with lupus.

Last time I checked Lupus is hardly considered "a terminal illness" it can be in some cases,www.lupus.org for those of you who would like the facts about the sickness.

Terminal illness or not is not a valid reason to skirt the rule book your charged to enforce upon other members.

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My Son is now fulfilling his dream with his formation with Christ.



This statement from Mr. Hart would imply that his son has passed away, or it's one of those bible thumper type comments, IDK what he means by that statement, but I do believe those who know Mr. Hart quite well and have told me his son is in fact alive and well and this is all a bunch of public statement bullshit trying to cover up their fuck up.

Tell you what, you believe what you want to believe, myself and others can and will choose to believe what we know to be true and factual events and make up our own minds.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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