Froggy 0 #101 October 16, 2006 Quotethe TSA did one major thing wrong - they admitted to their in-education in handling rigs with AADs. OK, let's try that again... TSA did nothing wrong, since they can request your reserve to be opened for inspection. Now, the reason WHY they did it is a different matter, and while I certainly understand your frustration (I would be pissed, too!), I believe it's rather pointless to complain about it, because, whatever the reason was, they were within their right. I agree with bigway's opinion that creating a noise around this isolated incident can do more harm than good... And, BTW, I fly a lot myself, spending more than 50% of my working time on the road. Believe me, I've seen a lot of stupid things at checkpoints (like one guy who had to loose his Dr. Scholl's pain-relieving gel insoles ), but that doesn't change my opinion on the subject...-------------- We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #102 October 16, 2006 Quotethe TSA did one major thing wrong - they admitted to their in-education in handling rigs with AADs. Again, it's not there job to be educated on AAD's or skydiving equipment. It's there job to inspect carry on items, which they did within their own rules. It sucks for you but they had the reserve opened with you present. That is all you have the right to. I originally really did feel for you, but this ax your grinding is about worn down to the nub."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #103 October 16, 2006 I disagree. The TSA should be expected to remember their training. The USPA has told us to report such incidents so that they can work the issue for the future. Just because they are allowed to do something doesn't mean we are doing ourselves a disservice to complain through channels that were established specifically to provide reasonable assurances of safety for everyone and convenience and predictability to you. If the TSA said their policy had to change because of some actual threat or incident, or because you look suspicious, that would be different. But to put up with it just because they are not educated in their own procedures is not acceptable, I think. In my case, they falsely claimed that their policy had changed, that they always required both canopies to be opened.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitational 0 #104 October 16, 2006 ...and a 3.0 ounce can of shaving cream was not allowed but if it was 3 ounces it would have passed muster . the organization unfortunately proves over and over again that they're incompetent. that is what scares me.------ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #105 October 16, 2006 > ...and a 3.0 ounce can of shaving cream was not allowed but if it was 3 ounces it would have passed muster. Many skydivers can't figure out if a rig is legal to jump or not at the 120th day after the repack, so I can't get too excited about people who can't figure out if a 3 ounce limit means "equal to or more than 3 ounces" or "more than 3 ounces." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #106 October 16, 2006 QuoteAt what point does the erosion of your civil liberties and personal freedom in the name of "safety" become too high a price? You don't have to fly. QuoteDoesn't it strike you as odd that they rescinded the liquids ban for airside shops but you can't bring your own in from outside security? That decision was purely financial. There is no "special" screening of water/toiletries vs what was already in place pre-liquids ban, i.e. run it through x-ray. You think they are spot-checking Evian and lotion for sale inside the terminal? There is very little risk that you could get a store to sell a bottle of water that is actually a fuel for a bomb. But it would be easy to carry it from home."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #107 October 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteDoesn't it strike you as odd that they rescinded the liquids ban for airside shops but you can't bring your own in from outside security? That decision was purely financial. There is no "special" screening of water/toiletries vs what was already in place pre-liquids ban, i.e. run it through x-ray. You think they are spot-checking Evian and lotion for sale inside the terminal? There is very little risk that you could get a store to sell a bottle of water that is actually a fuel for a bomb. But it would be easy to carry it from home. I think he's trying to say that there's no checks of liquids bought in terminal, but also no way to know if said liquids were in place before the ban - so a "plant" could have put in place and nobody would know.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #108 October 16, 2006 When i flew out from london you were not allowed to buy duty free liquor from inside the terminals. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eule 0 #109 October 19, 2006 Wow, it took you two posts to slam me... you'd think I was running the WFFC or something! QuoteFor some reason i dont think there is enough parachute going through customs for them to bother spending millions of dollars on training and gear. My point was that it wouldn't cost "millions" of dollars. I am certain that the option of taking lots of digital and x-ray photos of rigs and distributing them for the TSA training classes wouldn't cost a million dollars. Hell, for US$300,000 you could buy a BRAND NEW RIG (including AAD and extra chrome plating) for every state in the US, to be used in the TSA training in that state, so getting used rigs together should cost much less than that. A lot of the posts here concerning TSA say things like "the guy didn't want to let the rig through but the supervisor came over and said it was OK" or "the guy knew it was a rig and called his co-workers over for some on-the-job training as to what a rig looks like". What I got out of that was that not that many TSA screeners have seen a rig go through the machine before. This is somewhat understandable - if you're running the TSA training class and you want to show the new recruits what a laptop or a hairdryer looks like on the X-ray, all you have to do is stroll out to the security point and wait a few minutes. If you want to show them what a parachute looks like, you'll be waiting quite a while. I was trying to come up with some inexpensive ways for the TSA trainers to be able to show the new guys what a rig looks like. QuoteIf people are going to complain to the TSA then all the TSA need to say is, fine, you can not take parachutes on a plane, problem solved! And then people call the (already mostly bankrupt) airlines and say "Now that I can't take my rig, I won't be buying any more plane tickets for my skydiving trips" and parachutes magically appear on the approved list again. Quotewe are lucky to be able to take our rigs on a plane, i see no reason what so ever that they have to let us. Cycle that through a few more iterations and you end up flying naked. EulePLF does not stand for Please Land on Face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #110 October 19, 2006 Grow up! I never slammed you, i said an opinion. It was nothing personal towards you or your beliefs. Good on you for bringing up the WFFC thread. If my opinion is different from yours you need to say i slammed you and bring up another thrad where i had alot of people against me for your support or something? Grow up. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #111 October 19, 2006 Mate, you seem to think that us as skydivers are so fucking important that we should be allowed to carry parachutes on an airplane that customs has to go through all this for us special people They dont give a fuck if we dont take our rigs on the plane, we can check them just like everyone else, why should they give a fuck, what makes us so special that customs should change the way they do their job so a few thousand people can carry parachutes on board?? Most people check their rigs anyway. I am one who likes to carry my rig on so i know it gets to the destination but i aint going to stop travelling to boogies if i cant carry my rig on a plane. we are at a time of war, if they want to open our reserves up and unpack it that is fine. Carrying a rig on a plane is not a right, it is a privellage, you want to make a fuss about it go for it. Do you even own a rig? People who shoot for a sport can not carry their rigs on a plane, paragliders can not carry their rigs on a plane, motocross can not take their bikes, surfers, divers etc, none of them can take their life saving equipment as carry on luggage so why should TSA send photos and have a staff meeting with thousands of employees costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars in paid staff meetings across the USA for our sport? You think if skydivers stop buying plane tickets cause they can not carry on their rigs would even slightly bother any airline at all? you think they would notice and it would be so damaging to their company that then they would start letting you fly with your rig agaun??? I know you are new in this sport but there is about 200,000 skydivers in the world and i doubt more than 10% of those people have ever taken a rig as carry on luggage. We are not the be all and end all to flight companies, hell we woulc not even make a difference if we stopped flying and i dont knw any skydiver that would not fly to a boogie cause he had to check his rig.. Airlines have special cargo for sports equipment, what is the big deal if our stuff ends up in their. I want to carry on my rig, i like that i can, but i also know it is a privelage of a lot of hard work from the USPA, Cypres, VIGIL etc, it has nothing to do with being a right to us where we can cause trouble over it. Why ruin a good thing? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #112 October 19, 2006 Both of you cut it out. Please stay away from personal comments and stick to the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #113 October 19, 2006 Bigway, You're entitled to your opinion, of course. All I can say in response to it: 1. We're talking TSA, not Customs. Very, very different. Customs agents by and large, are not moronic idiots paid minimum wage that are given greater authority in specific than the average trained police officer that carries a firearm. 2. Your thought process seems to reflect a similar attitude about safety outside of skydiving, that is common in the UK and a few other parts of the world. In other words, you're not much different than a lot of folks in Great Britain and surrounding areas when it comes to treating every incident by reacting against the lowest common denominator. ie; French Moron carries C4 on airplane thinking he can detonate it with a match (He obviously didn't know that some military folks use C4 to heat with in an open flame). So, now everyone has to remove their shoes. I'm just glad I don't live there. There is a point where mitigated risk and intelligent thought counter prudence, freedom and what many here have fought for, or our ancestors have fought and died for. The TSA is a "lowest-common-denominator response" to virtually everything. Our rigs are our lifeline. It's unlikely that a bicyclist, MotoX racer, surfer could potentially die because a highschool dropout wearing a TSA badge fucked up his/her equipment. Divers can't carry bottles on aircraft as there is a demonstrably serious risk to all passengers with a compressed airtank on board. The most anyone could do with a rig is perhaps smother a flight attendant with ZP fabric. On the other hand, a dumbshit TSA agent (and most of them are) could do all sorts of things that could impact your skydive. Of course, only a person less intelligent than a TSA brat would jump a rig not fully/deeply inspected after TSA had been around it anyway. What if your checked bagage is lost so they open it to identify content and they mess with your rig? What if they can't figure out how to fix the closing pin after they've extracted it? you're not there, it's in another city with "strings n' things" all over the floor. What if they actually DO figure it out, but put your DBag in upside down and you fail to inspect it because you're excited to catch the first load after getting your gear back? What if....whatever? Maybe others feel differently, but the bottom line (IMO) is that America has a different cultural view than much of the rest of the world with regard to our freedoms and what we're willing to accept/compromise. We could lie down and whine about it all as many citizens of the world do, but we don't. We fight, argue, and go to the mats when it's necessary. USPA and others have fought hard for certain rights that skydivers should be able to enjoy. Are we special? Damn right we are! Because our organization has spent the money, manpower, and time on our behalf to explain why we're unique. The FAA and TSA themselves have acknowledged we're unique. All we're asking is that they follow their own rules and honor the agreements they've made with our representative organization. Now, it's up to our organization to assure that their members are also properly informed (Clearly, some folks here are not). I don't feel that's a wrong thing nor too much to ask.We've paid for those rights one way or another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #114 October 19, 2006 >It's unlikely that a bicyclist, MotoX racer, surfer could potentially >die because a highschool dropout wearing a TSA badge fucked up >his/her equipment. Right. But it is also possible that if a TSA guy fucked with a hang glider reserve, a dive computer, a regulator, a rope or a climbing harness that the person involved could die. We're certainly not unique in that respect. >that America has a different cultural view than much of the rest of > the world with regard to our freedoms and what we're willing to > accept/compromise. No longer true; we have recently put security far above our freedoms. But that's a subject for Speaker's Corner, not a skydiving forum. >All we're asking is that they follow their own rules and honor the > agreements they've made with our representative organization. Agreed. And in this case, the agreement that the USPA and TSA arrived at was that it IS ok to open skydiver's main and reserve containers to inspect them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitational 0 #115 October 19, 2006 QuoteAgreed. And in this case, the agreement that the USPA and TSA arrived at was that it IS ok to open skydiver's main and reserve containers to inspect them. Almost - Here's the reply that Ed Scott has forwarded to me from the TSA. QuoteEd: Good to hear from you again. Parachutes are to be physically searched upon a positive trace explosive hit OR when some other item in the parachute that is “potentially suspect or prohibited” is detected via x-ray. Your member was obviously caught up by the second provision which is admittedly a subjective judgment on the part of the supervisor. The supervisor erred on the side of caution but cannot be said to have deviated from standard operating procedures. We will do more through some of our other forums to get the word out on Automatic Activation Devices. I obviously fell into the second item for their concerns, but will stand by the fact that the super was mis-educated and could have done whatever swabs he needed to do without opening the reserve. The 'potentially suspect or prohibited' is a really grey area that leaves all decisions up to the individual TSA agent to do their own free will.------ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntrprnr 0 #116 October 19, 2006 Quote I only get mad when they give my seat up when I've been on the road longer than I want to be. And I thought you were top tier. _______________ "Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?" "Even in freefall, I have commitment issues." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #117 October 19, 2006 Quote The 'potentially suspect or prohibited' is a really grey area that leaves all decisions up to the individual TSA agent to do their own free will. Yep. It's fairly imperfect, but sometimes it leads to discretion in the other direction ... Case in point, flying out of Oakland Monday morning (an airport where I've had problems before), I put my rig through and said "That's a sport parachute rig" to the screener. They looked at it on the x-ray for a bit and another screener (supervisor, maybe?) asked "Ma'am is there a compressed air cartridge in there?" I said, "No, it's an electronic device - an automatic opening device" (I decided the word "opening" sounded less ominous than "activation.") She confirmed "It's electronic?" I said yes and was on my way without even a swab or visual screening of the rig. Clearly that one could have gone either way ... they could also have asked me to prove it by opening it up. Good to hear that at least there was some reaction on the part of TSA and that there will be an attempt to get more/better information out into the field."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitational 0 #118 October 19, 2006 QuoteQuote I only get mad when they give my seat up when I've been on the road longer than I want to be. And I thought you were top tier. Only happened once. ------ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #119 October 19, 2006 QuoteI obviously fell into the second item for their concerns, but will stand by the fact that the super was mis-educated and could have done whatever swabs he needed to do without opening the reserve. So even though the TSA followed its procedure properly (opened your gear in your presence) as agreed by both you and the TSA your complaint is really that in your opinion the TSA didn’t need to inspect your gear as thoroughly as it has the right to and it did. Sorry you’ve lost all sympathy from me. Yes it sucked I will give you that but they were well within their rights and followed procedure. Your reaction is beyond reason IMHO. I wonder if how you reacted to them at the airport is part of the reason they searched you more thoroughly than they might have otherwise."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitational 0 #120 October 19, 2006 QuoteSorry you’ve lost all sympathy from me. Yes it sucked I will give you that but they were well within their rights and followed procedure. Your reaction is beyond reason IMHO. I wonder if how you reacted to them at the airport is part of the reason they searched you more thoroughly than they might have otherwise. Whatever...------ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Froggy 0 #121 October 20, 2006 QuoteAnd then people call the (already mostly bankrupt) airlines and say "Now that I can't take my rig, I won't be buying any more plane tickets for my skydiving trips" and parachutes magically appear on the approved list again. You are kidding, right? No, really, you can't be seriously thinking that traveling skydiving community would make more or less significant impact on airlines' well-being. It's all about business travelers -- has been, is, and will be at least in foreseeable future... QuoteCycle that through a few more iterations and you end up flying naked. In case you haven't noticed, it's already pretty close to that at checkpoints. Do you have any ideas to improve the situation, or at least stop it from getting any worse? -------------- We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Froggy 0 #122 October 20, 2006 QuoteThe supervisor erred on the side of caution but cannot be said to have deviated from standard operating procedures. (emphasis is mine) Here is your answer. It looks like you keep arguing just for the sake of argument... BTW -- two days ago I went with my rig in a carry-on suitcase through a checkpoint at YVR (Vancouver Intl) with not a single question asked, as usual... Next week I am flying back from LEX (Lexington) -- we'll see how it goes.-------------- We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #123 October 20, 2006 >but will stand by the fact that the super was mis-educated and could >have done whatever swabs he needed to do without opening the reserve. Nope. Neither the original TSA letter nor the response above shows he was "mis-educated." Indeed, a more reasonable interpretation is that you misunderstood TSA's agreement with USPA. >and could have done whatever swabs he needed to do without opening the reserve. Yes, he could have. And if he was still worried, he could follow the TSA/USPA agreement and opened your reserve. (Which is good - I'd hate for a skydiving reserve to be a guaranteed way to smuggle something onto an airplane.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitational 0 #124 October 20, 2006 Quote>but will stand by the fact that the super was mis-educated and could >have done whatever swabs he needed to do without opening the reserve. Nope. Neither the original TSA letter nor the response above shows he was "mis-educated." Indeed, a more reasonable interpretation is that you misunderstood TSA's agreement with USPA. Nope...Take a step back and stand in front of this guy and listen to him say 'my roommate told me...'. That's where his lack of education was. This guy was now an expert with AADs because his roommate told him. I've gotten the rest of it.------ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #125 October 20, 2006 I also always thought cypres 1 had some sort of exploasive device in it for the cutter... I was taught that by my instructor when he was teaching me what a cypres does, he just happened to mention this so we would know what to expect when going on flights. Sounds to me like this is a myth going back aways and for that i understand a whuffo thinking that as i always did until i learnt more. The guy did his job perfectly. He opened your reserve as he did not trust you, fair play to him. I wonder how many people they have stopped at gates with illicit items as their carry on. At least some people are trying to protect your american behind .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
