USPA Members: When You Vote for BOD - Do you use the actual ballot from Parachutist?

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

It is my belief (because I was told this one by a National Director) that both such ballots would be tossed out as "marked ballots". (I was also told, that every election numerous ones like this are "tossed"...

Unfortunately if it's a properly filled out ballot, even if it's one of 100 that showed up in the same envelope that looks to be filled out by the same person, it's valid.

Quote

In theory, you're only supposed to be able to vote once because you have to sign and put your USPA membership number on the ballot you send in. so, if they're tracking that data, you'd think they'd figure out something was up if they got two or more votes from the same person...

Yeah, they know something's up, but according to what Larry Bagley said, if two show up and they are both properly filled out and "valid" ballots, the one that got time and date stamped first is the one recorded.

Photocopy and get more votes thus possibly representing the wishes of the membership better, or don't photocopy and make sure you have more accuracy.

Thought about it for two days and I still can't quite decide.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ccq 0]

Krisanne-
Let me clarify some details for you a bit, without commenting on the issue at hand. The decision to use actual ballots was made at the BOD meeting six months ago in San Francisco after a fair amount of discussion. Jan Meyer brought up at this meeting that there was some confusion about the issue and if BOD members actually understood what was changed. It was discussed in the full board plenary yesterday. There was enough confusion expressed that the N&E committee (of which I am a part) will be reconsidering this at the next meeting in July. We will discuss and make a clarification or whatever motion is required that is consonant with the decision of the BOD.

John DeSantis did make a motion to allow photocopies while we were in plenary. It was not accepted by the President (Glenn) because it did not come through committee and would lead to another huge discussion of the same issue that had already been decided six months ago. Jan appealed Glenn's decision and the full BOD voted to uphold his rejection. We, as a BOD, tend to get ourselves in trouble with hastily made motions (as a committee of the whole). I think it is wise to do this one with proper consideration.

Sorting through the meeting formalities, the end result is that the N&E committee will reconsider the issue and the full BOD will have it's say in July. We shall see what happens.

I hope that helps a bit. Good to see you.

--Q

-----
Chris "Q" Quaintance
ccqquaintance.com
D-23345

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Thought about it for two days and I still can't quite decide.

Yeah, I'm kinda with you there too.


My words/thoughts... on one hand, this sounds kinda "fishy"... like what's the BOD afraid of? Folks all worked up about ousting some of them sending in a lot of ballots to do so? On the other hand... One could speculate that if there is an issue (or a preceived issue) with "balllot box stuffing" going on that this would (could) prevent that.

While I'm not one to keep old issues of magazines laying around... they usually find their way to the trash... errr, I meant to say recycling bin... after a month or two, I do make note to hang onto the issue of Parachutist that shows up with the ballot in it at election time until I fill it out and mail it off... and if I mistakenly tossed it and couldn't vote, would be accepting of my own "goof", if the option to get a blank, photo copied version, from someone at the DZ wasn't an option.

I am starting to form the opinion (think that) the USPA BOD would be better off if they communicated better with the membership about the "whys" and "what fors" behind some of these decissions / issues.

I guess too that this will cut down on the Regional / National candidates from traveling around to the back-water DZs at election time with a stack of blank ballots try to get people to vote... for them... at election time. Yeah, this is a pet peave of mine, even with RDs and NDs I like... that's the only time you see many of them at such DZs.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I am starting to form the opinion (think that) the USPA BOD would be better off if they communicated better with the membership about the "whys" and "what fors" behind some of these decissions / issues.

You and I are on the same page with that feeling.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

During this discussion one of the board members (I *think* it was John DeSantis, but I could be mistaken) mentioned something about the USPA sending extra copies of "official" ballots to DZO's to hand out at their DZ's. Not photocopied ballots, but the ones that they actually put in the magazine. Maybe on special paper with a USPA seal?? Not sure if this has actually been done or not, it was kind of hard to hear in there. This sounds like a great alternative to photocopied ballots to me.

But as for the question, the only election during which I have been a USPA member, I did use the actual ballot from Parachutist.

I wonder if they would send them to ALL GM DZO's... or just the ones on the board and part of the "IN CROWD"????

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

I am starting to form the opinion (think that) the USPA BOD would be better off if they communicated better with the membership about the "whys" and "what fors" behind some of these decissions / issues.

You and I are on the same page with that feeling.

You're not the only ones...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[lauraliscious 0]

Quote

I wonder if they would send them to ALL GM DZO's... or just the ones on the board and part of the "IN CROWD"????

I would hope they would send them to either all GM DZ's, or all DZ's (GM or not) that requested them.

As for the explanation, I think it really helped to be at the meeting. Although maybe with the new website they are talking about they could do some sort of newsletter or briefing regarding decisions like this. I don't really want a brief about all the Competition committee decisions though, there are just way too many! I'm not sure how detailed the minutes write-up will be, but maybe one could glean some explanations from that if you really care about the why's behind some of these decisions.

The Nominations and Elections committee discussed this issue during the little bit of that committee break-out session that I sat in on. One concern (and it sounded like something like this has actually happened in the past) was, say they get a bunch of identical ballots at the same time. Say they are all marked with green ink down the left side, and signed with blue ink. All the USPA numbers are written in red ink. This would appear to be a case of ballot stuffing, but if all the signatures and USPA numbers are different there is no way to PROVE that those ballots are not valid. So they have to err on the side of counting all the valid votes, even though it seems highly likely that the same person submitted all of them.

Another potential concern seemed to be write-in candidates photocopying a bunch of ballots, writing their names in on all of them, and distributing them while asking people to vote for them. I guess that would be similar to people already on the ballot pre-marking photocopied ballots and handing them out to people while campaigning. This is kind of a gray area I guess, not sure if that really counts as voter fraud or not. The 1st example doesn't sound so bad, but the 2nd one sounds like it would be a big concern. But in reality they are the same thing.

This whole issue did not seem to me to be about the BOD trying to limit their competition. It seemed to be legitimately about preventing voter fraud. And I guess both of those examples could happen with mailed out "official" ballots as well as photocopied ones. Hopefully once the electronic voting gets implemented this won't be such an issue....

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[NWFlyer 2]

Thanks for your carefully neutral clarification, Q. Great to catch up with you as well.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

You and I are on the same page with that feeling.

You mean we're not always on the same page!!??!

[DSE 3]

I understand the "why" of it, but for all these years that a paper ballot accompanied by a valid license number, I still feel a paper napkin should be allowed as a ballot. In the very rare (if it's ever existed) situation of two ballots coming in with the same license number, then either the Elections committee could toss the ballot, or better yet, make an inquiry about the ballot(s) that. Our organization isn't so large that it would be a common occurrence, but I can imagine that with all the license numbers posted here on DZ.com and elsewhere, it wouldn't be that hard to fake a ballot. Then again, it still isn't that hard to fake a ballot, just grab a few parachutists laying around the DZ, and look up license numbers in the back of Parachutist from the past year.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi DSE,

I don't have a ballot laying around but I do not remember any req'ment for a license number to vote. I 'think' it is only a req'ment that the voter be a USPA member, and that would mean ONLY a USPA number.

Right/wrong????

JerryBaumchen

[diablopilot 2]

Correct.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DSE 3]

You're right, of course, I guess I meant valid USPA membership #. I always forget that number when I go to DZ's, but always remember my license number. I guess I put em' (mentally) in the same category.
Either way, there is a "tracking number" that USPA has for use to prevent paper napkins vs photocopied ballots vs actual printed ballots.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Our organization isn't so large that it would be a common occurrence, but I can imagine that with all the license numbers posted here on DZ.com and elsewhere, it wouldn't be that hard to fake a ballot. Then again, it still isn't that hard to fake a ballot, just grab a few parachutists laying around the DZ, and look up license numbers in the back of Parachutist from the past year.

There's also the GM database, which, if I remember correctly, lists USPA numbers in addition to license numbers.

I'm a fan of photocopied blank ballots, as it makes it easy to vote for someone who makes the effort of actually coming to a dz to solicit votes. I can also understand the potential for fraud, and am sure it has happened in the past, at least on a small scale. I have to imagine there's a fairly simple happy medium that respects both sides of the coin, but haven't given it enough thought to propose such a solution.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[peregrinerose 0]

That doesn't make any sense. My husband and I are both USPA members, but we get one copy of Parachutist because we want to save a tree and a couple of bucks for the USPA... so now, in order for both of us to legally vote we both have to start getting Parachutist??????????

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AllisonH 0]

In the video of the meeting that was so kindly posted on YouTube, they clearly said that if for some reason you lost/destroyed/didn't get/etc. your ballot that was send in Parachutist, you could request a replacement ballot. Presumably this would also apply to those members who've asked to not receive the magazine?

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

In the video of the meeting that was so kindly posted on YouTube, they clearly said that if for some reason you lost/destroyed/didn't get/etc. your ballot that was send in Parachutist, you could request a replacement ballot. Presumably this would also apply to those members who've asked to not receive the magazine?

There's no need to be sarcastic to those of us that can't watch youtube videos at work and are in the middle of packing up a house every night due to moving so don't have time to watch at home. I appreciate the information though, thanks!

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AllisonH 0]

Sorry, wasn't really meant to be sarcastic - I guess the tone of voice was lost in the typing

[MakeItHappen 15]

This post does NOT represent USPA views.
It is a personal post made by me.

Quote

In the USPA Board of Directors meeting today, a decision was made to declare that only the actual ballots that are sent out Parachutist magazine elections issue are legal ballots. In all past elections, photocopied ballots were legal, so long as they met all other requirements of a legal ballot.

This decision was made at the Summer 2007 meeting. You can read about it in the minutes.

There were two documents that were changed. One was Section 3-1 of the GM and the other was an internal USPA document. These changes were sold as 'housekeeping' changes, as noted in the minutes "To the best of our knowledge, this separation of documents does not consist of any change to the existing Nominations and Election policy." These documents were only given to the committee during the meeting. Technically, they should have been given to the full board at least 15 days in advance of the meeting. [GM Sec. 3-1.2.B] The FB never had a copy of these documents at the Summer 2007 meeting.

During the N&E report out we started to review the documents by showing the documents on the big screen. We only got about 1/3 of the way through one document. Then someone asked if there were any significant changes or was this just housekeeping. Then the vote was taken. What most directors did not know, including myself (and I'm on the committee) was that this line was deleted:
"C. Photocopies of ballots are encouraged but acceptable only if the voter individually marks them in original handwriting." from Section 3-1.

As a historical note, this rule was put in place after Ray Ferrell distributed pre-marked ballots at Skydance during an election in the 1990's.

On Jan. 8, 2008 I sent an email to the Secretary and the Chair of the N&E Committee that was also CCed to the FB and Executive Director. See attachment.

My concern was that these changes eliminated photocopies of the ballot and that the FB did not understand that this change was made. It was not clearly explained at the Summer 2007 meeting. I wanted this issue to be brought up at the Winter 2008 meeting. I asked both the Secretary and Chair of N&E (twice each) to put it on the agenda. The issue was never put on the agenda.

At the Winter 2008 meeting the N&E Committee did discuss the issue. There was a lot of heated debate about the pros and cons of this change. When I gained the floor, I said I did not want us to debate the issue in committee, but instead bring this to the attention of the FB during the plenary session. I knew that many Directors did not know of this change and were opposed to the elimination of photocopies.

During last Sunday's plenary session the Chair of N&E did bring up the issue. Mr. DeSantis then made a motion. He was cutoff immediately and never was able to state his motion. I surmise that it was a motion to allow photocopies of the ballot.

The President prevented Mr. DeSantis from making his motion and declared that he did not have the right to make a motion.

I appealed the President's ruling stating that each member of the assembly has the right to be heard and make motions, that are in order, at any time. Mr. DeSantis' motion was in order. An appeal means that the assembly must vote on the ruling. There is no debate in such a case.

The vote upheld the President's ruling. There were some Directors that voted to uphold the President's ruling because we were running out of time, not because they agreed with the ruling. The vote was just over a 50-50 split.

In the end, the issue will be taken up again at the Summer 2008 meeting.

Dr. Lee requested a ruling from HQ on whether or not photocopies of ballots are allowed. He thinks that even with the deletion of the line that photocopies may still be allowed. Time will tell.

Quote

As a USPA member, I have to say that this new requirement absolutely appalls me. Coupled with two other decisions that came out of this meeting (the delay of online voting, which is actually a wise decision given how behind USPA already is technologically, though it's sad that we ARE so far behind; and the decision by the board not to consider any term limits for board members), it's crystal clear to me that there are at least some members on this board whose only interest is protecting their position on the board.

I've been evaluating online voting for more than a year and a half. There are several security and workflow issues that still need to be addressed and resolved. It is not as simple as setting up a poll here.

Quote

I understand where it is coming from - it is an attempt to minimize the potential for fraud.

This is the major reason.

Quote

But frankly, with abysmally low voter turnout already, this will only serve to further minimize turnout, and hurt the chances of challenger candidates who wish to distribute blank ballots to jumpers at dropzones and jumper events in an effort to drum up support and enthusiasm for the election.

Voter turnout is generally above 10%. That is good.
A quote from the 1989 Parachutist report states, "It should be emphasized that in elections of this type any participation in excess of 10% is considered a very positive response." FMI see USPA Voter Turnout

Quote

I strongly encourage every USPA member to write to your regional director and national directors on this issue and let them know how important it is to encourage voter participation and that allowing photocopied ballots is a critical part of that process.

ditto here.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[skydived19006 4]

I can see both sides of this issue. I do think that if they choose to only accept the ballots taken from the magazine, that a decent compromise would be to send a couple of hundred ballots to small DZs, and two hundred to large DZs. Oh, you say "that's a lot of paper, and mail!", those things do not seem to be a problem with sending out a stack of blank TMI forms, which I throw in the trash.

Ok, so I could go onto the GM site, take information, and forge ballots. There's always going to be room to cheat, shit it happens in our national presidential elections. So, what are we going to do? Require everyone to make a pilgrimage to Virginia, show multiple forms of ID, then dip our thumbs in green ink so we can't vote twice?

I'll send an email to the BOD, expressing my opinions.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[lauraliscious 0]

Thanks for all the information and clarification, Jan.

Even though I was at the meeting I still missed a lot of what was actually happening with that, and I had no idea as to the background of this issue.

I hope I speak for all the pot-stirrers who have nothing better to do than post on internet forums when I say that we sure do appreciate such accurate and detailed information coming from one of our directors.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[buzzfink 5]

There has not been a problem with copies of the ballots being available at the DZ. It is my understanding Larry Bagley thought there was some ballots filled out with different ink colors. This can still happen wether the ballot is a copy or an original. So I don't get it? Also, I know of someone who filled out his information, then held onto his ballot till the following week. He then mede his selections. It happened to be in another color of ink. Again, I do not see how this will change anything.

I do think it is an attempt to make it harder to vote and thus favor the incumbents. I thought we wanted more members to be able to vote?

Just a thought.


Buzz Fink

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

There has not been a problem with copies of the ballots being available at the DZ. It is my understanding Larry Bagley thought there was some ballots filled out with different ink colors. This can still happen wether the ballot is a copy or an original. So I don't get it? Also, I know of someone who filled out his information, then held onto his ballot till the following week. He then mede his selections. It happened to be in another color of ink. Again, I do not see how this will change anything.

I do think it is an attempt to make it harder to vote and thus favor the incumbents. I thought we wanted more members to be able to vote?

Just a thought.

IMHO, summed up nicely.

WRTO Jan's objection to the document change process.
Isn't that just another huge RED FLAG saying the entire process is being screwed by incumbents? Doesn't it show just another example of a long line of "screw-the-rules-we'll-do-whatever-we-want" mentality that got us where we are today?

It's funny that on the one hand "they" are concerned with the online voting thing being "just right" but in other matters "they" have a long history of shooting from the hip and the ballot restriction is just one example of that.

I think this whole thing is sitting right directly on the border of crossing over into "delete the ENTIRE board and start afresh. There just CAN'T BE anybody worse out there to elect as replacements. Can there?
Throw the baby out with the wash? So be it.

Inside I'm just screaming, "You stupid fockers! What the hell are you doing to us? Your damned ego is driving us into oblivion."

<>

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[peek 20]

Quote

I do think it is an attempt to make it harder to vote and thus favor the incumbents.

Certain incumbents.

[chaoskitty 0]

Quote

I think this whole thing is sitting right directly on the border of crossing over into "delete the ENTIRE board and start afresh. There just CAN'T BE anybody worse out there to elect as replacements. Can there?
Throw the baby out with the wash? So be it.

Generalizing the personalities of the entire board in to one self-serving machine is a very sad misconception. There are many members of the board who work very hard for the sport and the general membership.

Having just attended the BOD meeting, its quite obvious to me which board members have more interest in power and politics than they do for the sport. I guarantee its not the majority of the ND's and RD's.

As for the balloting issue, its still on the table. The N&E committee is charged with making a recommendation. Naturally, people in elected positions are going to have concerns about getting re-elected when the election process changes. But it was quite obvious that the greater concern was getting more members to vote, while providing us with a way to do so and have accurate results.

We really need to stop this witch hunt and just pay more attention. Actions speak louder.