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"The Decline in Skydiving in the 21st Century", a white paper

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I've been saying for the last 15 years that skydiving is slowly dying, and the single most important reason for it is lack of numbers of people coming through from first jump courses.....

The lack of these jumpers can be attributed to one thing only.....

The advent of AFF!!!.

Too many skydivers who had only been involved in the sport a short time seemed to think that AFF was the only way to go, was the way of the future, and had the attitude that SL training were very "uncool".

They forgot the simple factor of cost, and of the time and difficulty factor involved with AFF training.

Personally I've trained over 10,000 people to do first jumps over my career, and if I had had to train AFF I doubt very much if I would have trained 10% of that number....

The chickens are coming home to roost, and as more and more of the "dinosaurs" and older jumpers retire and get out of the sport, then the decline is gonna go into freefall.

I don't see the same dedication and love of the sport in todays young generation of jumpers....they lack the organisational skills and committment of the older jumpers....and like people have been saying on this thread....if you are an older jumper you often get negative vibes from todays young hotshots, who just can't accept that some of the older jumpers have something worthwhile to say...

But what do I care, I've spent 35 years giving people great experiences, and I've had a hell of a lot of fun doing it.....but the attitudes I come across too often these days just leave me cold.....

To hell with them.......

Skydiving is a dying sport........period.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I've been saying for the last 15 years that skydiving is slowly dying, and the single most important reason for it is lack of numbers of people coming through from first jump courses.....

The lack of these jumpers can be attributed to one thing only.....

The advent of AFF!!!.

Too many skydivers who had only been involved in the sport a short time seemed to think that AFF was the only way to go, was the way of the future, and had the attitude that SL training were very "uncool".

They forgot the simple factor of cost, and of the time and difficulty factor involved with AFF training.

Personally I've trained over 10,000 people to do first jumps over my career, and if I had had to train AFF I doubt very much if I would have trained 10% of that number....

The chickens are coming home to roost, and as more and more of the "dinosaurs" and older jumpers retire and get out of the sport, then the decline is gonna go into freefall.

I don't see the same dedication and love of the sport in todays young generation of jumpers....they lack the organisational skills and committment of the older jumpers....and like people have been saying on this thread....if you are an older jumper you often get negative vibes from todays young hotshots, who just can't accept that some of the older jumpers have something worthwhile to say...

But what do I care, I've spent 35 years giving people great experiences, and I've had a hell of a lot of fun doing it.....but the attitudes I come across too often these days just leave me cold.....

To hell with them.......

Skydiving is a dying sport........period.



You appear to contradict yourself. First you blame AFF as the "one thing only", then you blame bad attitudes and lack of committment of the young.

I don't agree with either. It is simply competition from other activities. This is the SAME reason that the number of pilots is declining and the number of R/C modelers is declining - both activities in which the powers that be are wailing and gnashing teeth and casting around for scapegoats.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The "bad attitude" and lack of committment is, I feel a reflection of those who have come up through AFF....by its very nature it means people who come through that system do not interact with as many students at the same stage of their jump career because there are less of them around.

Sharing problems with peers at student level, I believe, leads to jumpers much more willing to "share" themselves later in their careers.

By its very nature AFF learning is a lot more "self" centred, and this attitude seems to stay with AFF graduates throughout their careers.

AFF is a relatively complicated and difficult way to learn to skydive, as well as being far more expensive. This is not conducive to "growing" the sport in terms of numbers.

This "attitude" I'm talking about coming mainly from AFF graduates is simply one of arrogance towards SL student training as being "old fashioned", "not real skydiving", and even "its dangerous".

I've seen many times in the last 10 - 15 years deliberate efforts to belittle SL training, to the point where attempts have even been made to legislate against it in favour of AFF.

Total nonsense of course.

Yet I've found AFF trained students surprisingly lacking in general knowledge about skydiving. (things like spotting and canopy control for instance). Understandable I suppose seeing AFF involves a lot more intensive freefall training. SL trained students also seem to becaome a lot more independant a lot quicker......because the learning occurs in much smaller steps which are easier to assimilate.

These days I can't be bothered with these battles, because I know that a lot of the people who make the biggest noise don't contribute much to the sport, and don't stay with it for long anyway....

Its far easier to sell "parachute jumping" to the masses rather than skydiving, as I believe most people who enter our sport initially don't intend becoming skydivers, they just want to experience something thrilling rather cheaply and easily, which SL allows. Once hooked however, the skydiving follows naturally.

The complexity and cost of AFF is a huge negative, and far outweighs any positives that the system entails.

I'm not anti AFF by the way, I just think SL is a much more efficient way to produce skydivers.....and I see a lot less students being trained these days.

As an example:

One time I trained and jumped 53 first jumpers on a single weekend, with one jumpmaster to help me. Of that group of 53, 32 did a second jump and six managed 5 jumps in that same weekend. 9 of that group of first jumpers graduated with an A licence later that season.

I simply cannot see the AFF system producing those sorts of results in that sort of time frame, with only 2 personnel involved......

And for those knocking tandems....tandems have made our sport a lot more acceptable in the world today. Anyone who went through skydiving in the 60's, 70's, and 80's will tell you of the constant battle it was to skydive, with the prevailing attitude towards skydivers back then.

It was NEVER easy, and todays hotshots have no idea how much they owe to the jumpers of yesterday who fought those battles to make skydiving acceptable. Just getting aircraft and places to jump was an ongoing and difficult battle.

It doesn't really matter though, because today people spend time in a wind tunnel......then come out and call themselves skydivers......

Yeah......right!!!.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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That's an awful lot of bad outcomes that you associate with making, what, seven jumps.
People's personalities are very well developed by the time they reach adulthood. Making 7 AFF jumps is not going to change anyone's personality for better or worse.

I think you seriously overestimate the influence of AFF.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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A DZ is one of the most intimidating places on the face of the earth for someone walking on to make their first jump, either tandem, AFF. static line or IAD.

Some DZ's do a wonderful job of integrating the first jump student and the experienced jumpers and the DZ operations etc. Some DZ's just want the $$'s and don't let the door hit you on the way out!

For someone to actually decide to take that first leap is quite an accomplishment in their life, however many of us forget our first day at the DZ, and what it was like.

A positive first impression will help the retention rates, as will follow up phone calls and thank you letters.

AFF course costs and gear are major issues, however I don't think that is entirely a negative for someone that is "hooked".

Skydiving is like golf, or other sports, in that it takes a lot of time out of your life to get good at it. Some people in todays hectic lifestyles don't have the time to commit. And as we all know there are many other "extreme" or just plain fun other things to be doing...motorcycles, SCUBA, rock climbing, paintball, etc. If you live near a warm weather major DZ it is easy to get a bunch of leaps in a short period of time. A person at a summer only DZ flying a cessna 182 is going to have a long commitment to get good.

As a sport we also can't keep killing our own. When an AAD, gear malfunction or other preventable things kill skydivers, it makes a person think twice about starting. And as our jump planes keep falling out of the sky it makes people not want to fly in them.

Freeflying has also added an interesting dilemma to our sport. Back "in the day" there were boogies that you didn't want to miss because ALL the other kids would be there. 20 ways were the order of the day and you could meet all kinds of new people, because we were on the same jump together. Now the freeflying is breaking up the sport socially a bit, while advancing it tremendously skill wise. It's harder now for casual older belly flyers to show up on a weekend and get on a good load, or even know a lot of people at their own DZ!

As for the jumpers making a living at DZ's around the world, it is possible. However look at their side of the coin. A person can be a great tandem/AFF/Rigger/camera flyer/ maintenance helper at a DZ and work there for years. It might take them thousands of dollars to get to a highly skilled and professional level. What does the sport give back to them. No health insurance, retirement plan, sick days, vacation days, or profit sharing! Even though said jumper has made the DZ owner lots of money over the years. And a friend of mine once told me (his father owned a midwest DZ for years) that his dad never knew a poor DZ owner.

So now we get to the USPA issue. Is their role in our sport becoming a bit misguided? As members we spend money to sue business people and money to very poorly promote our sport. Is their role promotion or regulation? I know this has all been hashed out in other threads, but is it really in our best interest to have so many DZO's on the board? Is our dime being spent to further skydiving? Just food for thought.

One final issue...will wind tunnels help or hurt our sport in the long term. Will we have 200 jump wonders that can outskydive most of us but can't fly a canopy to a safe landing on a bad spot? Will they eat up the money so fast that the jump tickets will rise because less jumps are being made? One thing for sure is that they have improved the skills of many jumpers for free fall!

So is the sky falling or are we still falling from the sky? Maybe we're just in the midst of a cycle that will self correct.

When someone asks me what it costs to skydive I tell them the truth.."Well, if you really love it, it will cost about $150,000, two ex wives and all of the friends you currently have".

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I just wanted to mention something - its upto you to make whatever you want of it - last year SDC had 60+ students take their AFP first jump course. 30 graduated before the end of season (including me) - many others will continue when the new season begins. And when comparing I found the AFP to be a bit more on the expensive side compared to other AFF courses out there. Now, I am not going to compare my knowledge / skill level against someone else who underwent training via Static Line but I had 22 solo landings, 24 freefalls, 3 packjobs monitored by an instructor before I truly went airborne without anyone. Other students had similar stats as well. Make what you want of the above facts.

As for the environment - I feel truly at home with my new family. I have never been belittled or made to feel insignificant. I dont have gear yet and jump a huge ass student rig (Sabre 2 230, wingloading of 0.88). People with 2000+ (or 100+) jumps are always eager to jump with me and one instructor - Wade - teaches me everything he knows for free and records them on video as well (I just pay for his jump tickets). I dont know if the outcome would have been different if I learnt elsewhere - but I can honestly say I continued with my course (inspite of repeating levels 5 times) because I learnt at SDC (which also has the reputation of being a large commercial dropzone).

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in reply to "Now the freeflying is breaking up the sport socially a bit, while advancing it tremendously skill wise. "
.............................................

I agree with most of what you are saying but I have to disagree with the freeflyers demonstrating tremendously advanced skills bit.
Sure they're good at freeflying ...perhaps.... but that doesn't necessarily translate to them being a well rounded skydiver. Many exhibit a very narrow skill set and even narrower social skills.

I've seen with my own eyes national freeflying champions that could barely flat fly to save themselves.
Then back on the ground proceed to tell everyone where they went wrong. In the past they would have been laughed off the DZ.

This kind of delusional behaviour was common before video brought its version of the truth back to the ground.
Then the unskilled loud mouth BS artists had to take a back seat.

The exclusive nature of these 'highly skilled' freeflyers is also a major turn off for most newbies who may not want to do 12 jumps a day and have 2 or 3 rigs with packers etc etc. let alone be able to afford it.

If we want people to return to our sport we have to cater to them not to the biggest ego's on the DZ. Too many hero's and not enough delivery.

There are so many different ways to enjoy being in the air. No one group needs to hijack this sport but some do appear to want to.

It puts me off and I know it puts off a lot of potential skydivers who just don't want to wade throught he small minded cliquey politics that seem so prevalent in modern skydiving.

If skydiving presented as a multi-faceted all inclusive sport we would attract multi-faceted all inclusive participants not the narrow expression currently shown to the public at most DZ's.

Thankfully the air is still the coolest place to be . Why the mad rush back to the ground? perhaps that's where its really happening for most.

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Kallend, you are correct, peoples personalities are very well developed by the time they reach adulthood, but people who enter our sport enter a whole new realm of emotional and sensual influence.

I don't think any skydiver would disagree with that...hell peoples personalities change....overnight....

Also, I don't think anyone would disagree that they were influenced to a tremendous degree by their instructors, and whether they did one jump, seven jumps or seven hundred jumps they carry a lot of the attitudes of the people who first influenced them as they entered the sport...that applies to whichever discipline AFF, SL, or Tandem people used to get into the sport.

Most people in the sport reflect a lot of the attitudes of their idols. And quite a few (not all) AFF, instructors I have come across have absolutely no time, let alone understanding of SL. Most of these have come exclusively through AFF programmes.

It seems to me a lot of AFF influenced people have an attitude towards SL training that is neither justified nor reciprocated....and I've been involved in this sport for 33 years now and have seen a hell of a lot of change in that time.....

Of course there have always been arrogant arses involved, thats the nature of the sport. But once upon a time it was enough that someone was keen to share the skies with you.......there is a snobbery (as someone else put it ) that wasn't there before....but you'd need to have been involved for a long time to have seen it evolve....

But you'd have to agree, from the point of view of numbers alone, AFF has no chance of matching the numbers of people who tasted skydiving via SL....thats why I gave an example.....

Todays students are the instructors of tomorrow, and with less of them coming through via AFF, well, you figure it out......

You'd have to say, and from what I've seen in my travels around the world, that AFF now dominates training programmes in most countries....and as the decline in SL operations has occurred, it has been matched by the decline in the sport.....

Thats all I'm saying.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I blame Dale Stuart and head down flyers for the decline of skydiving as we know it.



Yeah, but I sure do miss her and Michelle "getting busy" with each other under that blankie in the back of the Otter on the ride to altitude! ;)B|:D



Anyway... funny how these discussions always morph into "the demise of America's youth" threads.

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The exclusive nature of these 'highly skilled' freeflyers is also a major turn off for most newbies who may not want to do 12 jumps a day and have 2 or 3 rigs with packers etc etc. let alone be able to afford it.




so true!
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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While I agree with most, if not all, points made in the paper, I can completely understand why the writing was not published in a major skydiving periodical. As stated earlier, the paper starts out with some good points, but turns in to a bitter and pessimistic account of a so-called "old timer" who, through the writing, appears to embody many of the characteristics of the people who are driving off new jumpers and experienced jumpers alike.

The "you" statements in the article turn off the reader almost immediately and make the author appear less than credible. Instead, use "I" statements and really own what you are saying.

I am a new jumper. I have been jumping for 6 years...nothing in the grand scheme of things. I'm not applying dropzone knowledge to the article, I'm applying common sense and scholarly suggestions to the article.

The article may be met with good reactions from folks who are like-minded with you, but to the majority of the skydiving population and outsiders, the article is nothing but a pessimistic account from a bitter veteran and not a well thought out thesis.


Cheers,
Travis

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I wrote a similar diatribe (though littered with a few more 4-letter words) on the Australian boards a few months ago, which got some interesting responses: Skydiving Retention and the Old Days



Interesting point you make about AFF. I actually did my first tandem jump over 7 years ago when I was still living in Oz. The DZ in question had a reasonably good discount on AFF if you paid for it all in one hit - enough to make me go away and start saving - I think it was about $1500. Less than a year later, I got sent to Canada for work and skydiving fell to the background of my thoughts as I explored this new land and tried a number of other things. It wasn't until about 18 months ago that I was changing jobs and as a result had some time off and some residual money lying around that I rekindled that fire and spent the time and money to become a skydiver. Maybe if I'd been sold on IAD or static line, I'd have been jumping for the last 7 years.

Who knows, I don't want to discourage discounts, because I like discounts, but maybe even without that discount, I would have started spending my money on AFF back then. I was younger and I believe that my wallet at the time had a hole in it. Coming up with $200 to buy my next AFF jump would have been much easier than $1500 for the entire course.

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The article may be met with good reactions from folks who are like-minded with you, but to the majority of the skydiving population and outsiders, the article is nothing but a pessimistic account from a bitter veteran and not a well thought out thesis.



Interesting point you make about "bitter veterans" and I agree that the original article would be met with good reactions from folks like-minded... since I think Gary's orig was "spot on"... but back to what I first said... interesting point you make about "bitter veterans"... please tell... How do you think we've gotten this way? Do you agree with what Gary says on how we got to this state of being, just don't like it, or how?

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The article may be met with good reactions from folks who are like-minded with you, but to the majority of the skydiving population and outsiders, the article is nothing but a pessimistic account from a bitter veteran and not a well thought out thesis.



Interesting point you make about "bitter veterans" and I agree that the original article would be met with good reactions from folks like-minded... since I think Gary's orig was "spot on"... but back to what I first said... interesting point you make about "bitter veterans"... please tell... How do you think we've gotten this way? Do you agree with what Gary says on how we got to this state of being, just don't like it, or how?



I 100% believe that the face of skydiving is not even close to what it was 25 years ago or more, and I haven't even lived through that to see the change. I also agree with almost everything he pointed out and can't think of anything off the top of my head that I disagree on. However...what bothered me was the accusatory nature of the article. One could argue that the purpose of his article is to invoke change, and invoke change I believe it will. However, the folks that the article is addressed to specifically, in my opinion, will not meet his demands with the way he went about it. In other words, the folks the article intends to reach will not soak it up due to the tone of his writing and the way it was presented.

As it always has been...those who are willing to change will change, and those who aren't willing (those who have most likely contributed to the negative changes in the sport) will keep on their unchangeable paths.


Cheers,
Travis

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Travis, thanks for your comments.

I don't consider it a "scholarly" paper, but rather an informal paper for skydivers. I must admit the style changes when I go to the "Suggestions" section, and this has be disconcerting to a number of people.

Please keep in mind that most of the things described in the "problems" sections are not just my opinion, but have been discussed by many people of many ages.

And also, if skydiving is good for you, and you see none of these problems where you are, then great! In that case please disregard the paper.

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Travis, thanks for your comments.

I don't consider it a "scholarly" paper, but rather an informal paper for skydivers. I must admit the style changes when I go to the "Suggestions" section, and this has be disconcerting to a number of people.

Please keep in mind that most of the things described in the "problems" sections are not just my opinion, but have been discussed by many people of many ages.

And also, if skydiving is good for you, and you see none of these problems where you are, then great! In that case please disregard the paper.



I do see the problems. And I think, for the most part, that your ideology behind these problems and the causes is pretty much spot on.

I was just thinking that the tone of the paper is going to turn off those who need it the most.

Another interesting question comes up that's been asked many times...do we really want our sport to get so huge and are these people leaving the sport keeping it a small community in a positive way like many, including myself, enjoy.


Cheers,
Travis

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9/11 gave me the clap! I think 9/11 gets blamed for lots more things than it should. My understanding is that jumping was shut down for one weekend in September 2001.



Even if DZs reopened the following weekend, the damage to the economy was significant. I was enjoying a nice summer sabbatical and then it happened and the job market disintigrated. The tech bubble burst certainly was in play, but after 9/11, both employers and consumers closed their wallets. I sat of my ass for another year.

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I think this is a good idea but might be a "hard sell" to many DZOs. I'm not a DZO, nor do I work at a DZ, but I get the idea that many DZOs treat skydiving as a zero sum game. They don't want to spend money on advertising or other promotion that won't bring jumpers to _their_ dropzone.



It's shortsided, because it most certainly isn't a zero sum game. For the past decade I've tried to find one new thing each year to lead a group outing to. (either I do it or a close friend does) We've done spelunking through passages narrower than my shoulder blades, rappelling into ravines, raced dragon boat, windsurf'd, kayaked, white water rafting, hiking, and of course skydived. It was the 3rd of those that I decided I'd do AFF-1 instead of another tandem jump, and that pulled me in for more. Some of these trips are one offs, some are season long, and some we keep doing for years.

Instead of selling the carnival ride, you use the tandem to sell the sport. You have them in the door already - treat them like a student and you might keep them. Treat them like a $250 visa charge and they have to commit to AFF (or SL) on their own. And cross promote with the hang gliders and outdoor rock climbing schools, and whatever else you got nearby. (Provided, of course, they are doing the same for you) Even if you lose a potential student to the other sport for now, you might get them later when they want to do something else.

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As an example:

One time I trained and jumped 53 first jumpers on a single weekend, with one jumpmaster to help me. Of that group of 53, 32 did a second jump and six managed 5 jumps in that same weekend. 9 of that group of first jumpers graduated with an A licence later that season.

I simply cannot see the AFF system producing those sorts of results in that sort of time frame, with only 2 personnel involved......



Is this supposed to be compelling to would be students, or to DZOs?

I had a zoo class for snowboarding with 30 other flailing bodies and 2 instructors, and it resulting in me trading the board for a pair of skis at lunch.

Is SL so much easier that you don't need to give more than 15 minutes of individual attention per student? (I did see the Fandango skit)

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Hello Gary,

I think CDRINF is correct in his observation of population demographics. Take cursory glance around most drop zones today, and you'll see the older skydivers out number the younger ones. Back in the seventies, the opposite was true.

In addition, today's youth have a tough time making decent money, IMHO. Today I see plenty of adults and illegal aliens doing jobs that used to provide younger people with the money to have fun. Bottom tier incomes have stagnated during the past twenty five years while the costs of skydiving have steadily increased as we moved toward safer equipment and better aircraft.

Good topic. Thanks!

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A DZ is one of the most intimidating places on the face of the earth for someone walking on to make their first jump, either tandem, AFF. static line or IAD.

Some DZ's do a wonderful job of integrating the first jump student and the experienced jumpers and the DZ operations etc. Some DZ's just want the $$'s and don't let the door hit you on the way out!


As a person who has only my first skydiving experience to go off of, I want to re-emphasize how true this is.

The first 5 minutes after getting out of the my car at the DZ were surreal. I can safely say that those first moments at the DZ gave me more sensory overload than my exit from the plane. I was in this new, unfamiliar, place with new and unfamiliar people with only my desire to jump to get me where I needed to go. Luckily there was a lone experienced jumper standing by the door to the building. I approached him and asked "Where do I go to jump out of a plane?" He responded with the obligatory, "You're crazy man" complete with grin. I confidently agreed with him and he kindly pointed me towards the manifest area and simultaneously negated 95% of the potential unnerving awkward feelings that come with being "fresh meat."

My interaction with manifest was clumsy (imagine a humble person with no clue what he's doing trying to interact with a very busy manifest [it was an event weekend so her workload/tension level was... 'burdensome']) was probably the most uncomfortable part of the experience (made more uncomfortable by my screwing up the waiver) but as soon as I met with my TI, it was all gravy. He was energetic, engaging, and just generally an awesome guy to be around. He definitely delivered a positive experience.

Didn't mean to go into too much detail but for those that haven't been there in a while, it's just important to remember how vital first impressions are. And this is coming from someone who has nothing but his first impressions to go off of. The guy who just happened to be at the door when I arrived really set the tone for the rest of my day and he may or may not have realized it. His projected... enthusiasm, which was totally impromptu and could have easily been diluted by the dozens of tandems that were there that day, was definitely appreciated. No one wants to timidly wander around an already humbling environment looking for the first person who doesnt look busy to ask even the simplest question of "Where do I need to go?" You're just hoping you didn't make the wrong selection and end up rewarded with an overly coarse or, worse, annoyed reply. It's a simple and small factor... but those first interactions are oh so important.

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RE: ... it's just important to remember how vital first impressions are.
-------------------------------------
TI's spending time with their student prior to and post jump is vitally important. It makes students feel comfortable and active in possessing knowledge for skydiving.

AFF: Every student progression has its pros and cons. As a graduate of the aff system, a few static line jumps, and a tandem, the aff program was perfect. Of the 7 levels, I had 5 or 6 different instructors, allowing me to meet and interact with experienced staff in the sky, each of which was very positive in every regard. Of the 9-10 students in my classroom session, 2 or 3 of them have stuck around, and share similar jump numbers. I can not say a bad thing about the aff system!

"Skygods": Being a 22 yr new comer, I have seen my fare share of the "skygod" attitude. It gives me a good smirk, but it turns most away.
Ego's are the killer.

Cheers,
Zac D.

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Didn't mean to go into too much detail but for those that haven't been there in a while, it's just important to remember how vital first impressions are. And this is coming from someone who has nothing but his first impressions to go off of. The guy who just happened to be at the door when I arrived really set the tone for the rest of my day and he may or may not have realized it. His projected... enthusiasm, which was totally impromptu and could have easily been diluted by the dozens of tandems that were there that day, was definitely appreciated. No one wants to timidly wander around an already humbling environment looking for the first person who doesnt look busy to ask even the simplest question of "Where do I need to go?" You're just hoping you didn't make the wrong selection and end up rewarded with an overly coarse or, worse, annoyed reply. It's a simple and small factor... but those first interactions are oh so important.



I totally agree with you. I do not have that many jumps myself, but the drop zone I frequent (and I use that term loosely) is quickly become less and less interested in treating their newer students with any kind of respect. Any time I ask a question, I am looked at like the dumbest creature on earth. The DZO is the worst, full of negativity and smarta$$ comments. A lot of the instructors are cool to you for your first couple of jumps, but after the 'new' wears off, you are mostly ignored. I am actually considering leaving the sport simply because I do not feel welcomed in it. I dearly want to learn, and I want to be good at it, but I'm definitely not going to continue to pay someone to treat me like dirt. If I had wanted that, I'd have stayed married. :ph34r:

Great article, Gary. Hopefully some DZO will read it and realize what their poor attitudes towards students will cost them.

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