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BlueEyedMonster

Avoiding a double mal??

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I would never trust my AAD for two reasons... The first one is that the place I jump is not level, the AAD firing at 750 feet above my DZ LEVEL may not be even close to 750 feet above the ground i'm over! The second reason is one that people have already mentioned a couple times here, in fact it was just 4 jumps ago that I realized that I had forgotten to turn on my AAD prior to my first jump of the day.. I'm not sure how this happened, as I am usually pretty anal about my gear check, especially before my first jump of the day, but I still missed it [:/]

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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....Running the risks through my head, when your body and brain is running on adrenaline speed you can get a lot done in the time that relying on the AAD can give you.....



Right off I'll state that I am not qualified to give you advice on your EPs. Neither am I qualified to back up what I will say next, so I invite further input from someone who is qualified.

It is my understanding, based on some discussions with psychology students and lecturers on the topic of human perception in high-stress situations, that the whole idea of increased reaction times is something of a myth. It's known as temporal distortion, and is percieved by someone in a high-stress or life threatening situation as "time slowing down". The person feels that they have more time to evaluate and react to a situation. This has been shown to be false, in that the brain can only process at a certain rate the data being fed to it by the eyes. In a life-threatening situation the brain allocates more resources to preparing the body for "fight or flight" and thus induces a lag in the processing of visual, and audio, information. Obviously time does not actually slow down (lets not stray into space-time quantum mechanics arguements) but mearly there is a lag in what the individual percieves as time passing. This phenomenon, in addition with loss of altitude awareness, could explain a lot incidents where jumpers have gone in with a perfectly functional, but undeployed reserve.

On the subject of EPs, I will add that I have changed mine recently to add a clear risers step before pulling silver. This is as a result of the reverse risers incident in Aus last year and a safety demo video of a horseshoe mal where the 3 ring system didn't release after a cutaway due to insufficient riser loading and the flat body position of the jumper. No I don't have reverse risers or jump an atom, but I believe it's still a relevant concern. And yes I made sure to seek qualified opinion and drill like crazy.

You say that you have 2 audibles, both of which flatline at 1000'. Is this your hard deck.

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Nate.....Not sure what you are saying here.....either you are confused or I am.....going from what you've said....

Either.....is your exit point above higher ground (a hill) than your DZ altitude??.....

Or.....are you not sure how your AAD works???......

Your AAD will fire 750 feet above the altitude where you set it.....if your DZ is 1000 feet above sea level......and you set it on the DZ....it will fire at 1750 feet above sea level.....or 750 feet above your DZ.....

Talk to your rigger about how your AAD works....or reread the manual that should have come with it.....








/
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Nate.....Not sure what you are saying here.....either you are confused or I am.....going from what you've said....

Either.....is your exit point above higher ground (a hill) than your DZ altitude??.....

Or.....are you not sure how your AAD works???......

Your AAD will fire 750 feet above the altitude where you set it.....if your DZ is 1000 feet above sea level......and you set it on the DZ....it will fire at 1750 feet above sea level.....or 750 feet above your DZ.....

Talk to your rigger about how your AAD works....or reread the manual that should have come with it.....

/



I know how my AAD works, and I know that it will fire 750 feet above where I take off and land at (DZ altitude).. There are hills that surround my DZ, very close to it... If above one of those hills the AAD just might be too late.. I dont count on it for anything.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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Sorry, I didn't have much internet access this weekend, So here's all my replies at once.

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Apparently, he had a baglock, cut away but the main D-bag with all the mess did not separate. He pulled the silver. I wonder how would your algorithm work in a situation like that


It depends on the situation, nice neat baglock with the lines all twisted up? (Low entanglement possibility) or giant mess of lines and half canopy 3 feet off my back baglock? (If I deploy the reserve it WILL entangle)
Nice Neat = Treat like PIT. Deploy reserve after 3 attempts to clear.
Holy Mess = Spend the time clearing it.

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It is extremely unlikely that in the middle of all that is going on in an emergency situation gone awry that you would even hear an audible alarm. I can assure you this is so.

I can assure I can and HAVE heard and been aware of my audible in the middle of emergency procedures. And Now I have 2 audibles, that both flatline at the same altitude.

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You are wrong; these tests were conducted with gear that is comparable with today's equipment.

What? So it was old equipment that is "comparable" with todays? That statement shows it was old hardware. I asked for specifics on this, not an unproven oxymoron. Unless you are a talking Golden Knights, Military rigs are not comparable to a 150sqft 9-Cell ZP main with collapsable Pilot / 160sqft 7-cell reserve--Mirage G4 rig. Military rigs (square) are all ripcord spring PC, 7cell mains that are 2x as large, NOT mini 3 ring, and F-111.

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thus induces a lag in the processing of visual, and audio

I'm familiar with the theory, and even how it is used to explain dejavu. But (at least for me) time does not slow down. My perception is time is running at its normal pace. The amazing thing is, looking back immediately at an emergency situation after it has occurred, how much went through my head, what I remembered that was relevant, and how much I accomplished in that few seconds of time.

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From a couple of replies, It sounds like the Aussies are taught to check for a clean release of the 3-ring before pulling the reserve? So if it does not release, when do the trainers there tell you to stop trying to free it and go for the silver?

I've noticed that so many people don't trust their AAD's. If you don't trust an AAD then don't spend the money. Just a wakeup call to ya all--commercial planes, and now cars are all beginning the switch to fly-by-wire ONLY. Get used to trusting your life to technology.

I trust the technology. I trust ALL of my equipment equally. To rule out the AAD of its due place in my emergency procedure or discount possibilities of its use based on distrust would be pretty silly I think.
---

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>One thing to keep in mind the end goal of all of my emergency
> procedures is not "just to survive" it is to walk away, break a bone or
>two or three, or die--no wheel chairs.

I'm thinking that a plan that increases the odds of you landing a hung-up main is not going to achieve your goal. If you have one set of risers release, and you spend the rest of the dive falling at 60mph trying to free the other set - you might just survive, depending on where you hit, but odds are you're not going to be able to use anything below your waist again.

The reason that people have developed specific emergency procedures over the years is that they don't want to end up dead or crippled. Given that, it might be worth going with the procedures that have been developed, rather than making up your own. It would suck to find out the hard way that there was a reason they don't recommend messing with your main until impact.

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I'm afraid you are making a mistake here, which someone may take as the thing to do in the middle of a malfunction....specifically, analysing the malfunction you are experiencing...and then deciding what your next action is going to be......

Very bad idea....because in a malfunction situation, one second can be the difference between life and death.......it s been proven time and time again....

You need a well drilled SET procedure that you stick with......which will save your butt in 99.9% of situations that can occur.......as long as your equipment is properly set up, and you deploy in the correct manner at the right altitude.....it works.......

The odds of a double mal if you've done everything correctly are so slim as to be negligible......and everyone needs to remember that........

Of course you can do everything right and still die.....but the instances of that are extremely rare.....if it happens to you then it just ain't your lucky day....and I believe your number is up, whether you're skydiving at the time or not.....

Messing with mals is a VERY bad idea.......performing your drills quickly and correctly a very good idea......and in skydiving, it has, and always will be so.......history tells us this....believe it.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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No flaw. I don't panic when I am about to die. Thats why I am still alive. The speed up the brain/adrenaline thing works quite well for me.--Its a very phenomenal thing.



And I bet you are all of 25 years old. You are just trying to fool us by acting 9.:P

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I can assure I can and HAVE heard and been aware of my audible in the middle of emergency procedures. And Now I have 2 audibles, that both flatline at the same altitude.



You sure hold youself in high reqard. Attached is an article on "THE DISTORTION OF PERCEPTUAL SPACE-TIME UNDER STRESS". Read it, and re-read it. No matter what you think you are capable of, you are not immune to this condition. If you do have a problem and stick with your poorly conceived plan, you will not have to worry about a wheel chair.

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Unless you are a talking Golden Knights, Military rigs are not comparable to a 150sqft 9-Cell ZP main with collapsable Pilot / 160sqft 7-cell reserve--Mirage G4 rig.



Guess what, it was the Knights and they were using mains around 200 sq. ft. and reserves about 175 sq. ft.

"You keep thinking Butch, thats what you are good at".

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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>Just a wakeup call to ya all--commercial planes, and now cars are
>all beginning the switch to fly-by-wire ONLY. Get used to trusting
>your life to technology.

AAD's are not built or maintained to those standards.

>I trust the technology. I trust ALL of my equipment equally.

That's unfortunate. Your dytter is several orders of magnitude less reliable than your harness - and dependence on it can kill you due to that lack of reliability.

>To rule out the AAD of its due place in my emergency procedure or
> discount possibilities of its use based on distrust would be pretty
> silly I think.

It's done all the time. The reason airliners are so safe is not because they have two or more engines, or three independent control systems, or that they have two pilots both of whom can land the plane with even one control system intact - it is because they do NOT rely on having all those things. They do not have emergency procedures that assume everything works fine. They train in simulators to deal with the loss of one or more engines, the loss of instruments, and the loss of control systems. Indeed, pilots have landed aircraft survivably without control systems, engines, and instruments. They have a lot of backups, but the reason air travel is safe is that they can land the aircraft with one control system looking out the windscreen.

It is worthwhile adopting such an attitude. You should use whatever safety systems you want, but you should be able to safely skydive with nothing but your rig, your eyes and your hands. (IMO of course.)

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How can you justify that level of faith in an aad?

Because its a computer. When properly used, its more accurate and dependable than a human.



LOL I tend to not have so much fate in computers, since both the hardware and the software can/will act up when you least need it.... :S



Computers reliable? Arent these the things that for no reason freeze up and will not work again until they are rebooted. hands up who hasnt seen the "this program has performed an illegal operation" message? ......I dont see no hands


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About 36 years ago, when I was 6, I was arguing about something with my Grandfather. I knew I was right. After a short time, he tired of this and gave me some money. A small amount. Although I'm in Africa, lets call it $1.

He said, "You can't argue with someone who knows they're right. It's a waste of time. I'm old. I don't have the time. Take this $1 and give it to someone else to argue with you."

I took the dollar, but it drove me MAD that he simply refused to listen to the point of view that I had spent all that time prepairing.

You give yourself a lot of credit. When I see video footage of pilots with $50 000 000 worth of training ejecting too late and dying - I wonder what you have that they don't.

For someone with all that awareness, I'm shocked that its so low that you can't feel your canopy release. I hear my three rings klink, the airspeed increase, the "pock!" of my reserve container opening, the "Vrrrrrrrr!" of my bridle leaving...
You're about 30% as current and 8% as experienced as I am - but probably younger and faster. You're way sharper than I'll ever be - but you need to look.

You've made up your mind. Stick to your guns. If I could send you a dollar, I would. I hope I don't see you in incidents.

To the rest of you looking to avoid a double mal..

As someone who has had 18 cutaways, and one reserve malfunction (On a Tandem - posted in Incidents here) - I agree with all the old hands here have to say.

Some of my chops have been from ugly wraps and entanglements, one a Pilot chute in tow, a couple of broken lines in the days I was more cavalier about gear maintenance, a spinner or two, a baglocked tandem... quite a nice spectrum, really. Some required no thought at all, and even had my CRW team laughing as they heard me shout out my drills in exactly the same way I teach my students. Some have broken drills due to timing or circumstance and resulted in my unscathed survival. I'm a lucky guy.

I think avoiding a double mal starts with avoiding a single mal. Maintain your 3 ring release system. Replace risers, bags, bridles, pilot chutes etc when they still have a couple of hundred jumps left in them. Replacing your closure loop when it shows wear or once a month. Line trim checked (for me) every 300 dives. Replaced every 600 dives.

Plan your dive. Dive your plan. Know who you're jumping with. Check the spot etc. even if it's right after exit. The sooner you know you're hosed, the better. If you're thinking "It'll probably be OK", it probably won't be. Murphy's always fucking with the low guy.

Wear an alti, but eyeball when you can. Analog is less cool, but anything with batteries and no replacement cycle (Read: Neptunes, Pro-Dytter, Pro-Track) etc is just waiting to screw you. My jumping is very regular. About 35 jumps a month, year round. I replace now, every 6 months.

Building ANY emergency procedure around triggers such as "flatlines" etc is just bullshit. What you hear under pressure - or even if you do hear - cannot be relyed upon. Ask those who've been in a gunfight how many shots they fired - how many were fired at them? Many won't know.

Waiting for a flatline is Darwin award material. We'd all laugh our asses off at someone who was waiting for the 6 second buzzer before the expolsives went off - and the buzzer never worked.

In the unlikely event of you having an entanglement use all the time you have to clear it - but even if it's for no other reason than your ego at the inquest into your own death - pull all the handles in the correct sequence.

As the ground comes up - your options go down.
The ground doesn't give a fuck how good you are, or how much you trust your gear. It doesn't know how safe gear has become. It's not fast, but it's patient, and its waiting to kill you.

Stay sharp.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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I'll bet you your dollar...........and raise you another dollar....that Monster comes back with another argument...........[:/]

Don't know why he asked for advice in the first place.......doesn't seem to want to take any....ho hum.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Don't know why he asked for advice in the first place.......doesn't seem to want to take any....ho hum.....
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I don't think he was asking for advice. He was proclaiming to the world, "Look at me, Super Hero". Look at his home page. This guy has been playing "Super Hero" since he was a little boy and I think he believes he is "Super Hero". As he said, "
I don't panic when I am about to die. Thats why I am still alive."

Hey it takes all kinds!:P

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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From a couple of replies, It sounds like the Aussies are taught to check for a clean release of the 3-ring before pulling the reserve? So if it does not release, when do the trainers there tell you to stop trying to free it and go for the silver?



I would imagine that they establish a sensible hard deck and drill it into the students heads that when you reach this altitude under a mal, cutaway (if not done already) and pull the reserve - regardless. Same goes for line twists.

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