Avoiding a double mal??

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

After much though of the possibilities and consequences I have added an additional step to my emergency procedures. In the time gap between cut-away and reserve, I verify my main is gone.

Should the main be hung up anywhere, I have decided I should concentrate 100% on freeing the main first. If at the point that I hit the flatline of my audibles, (both at 1000ft) there is at least a mostly clear shot, I will deploy, if its not clear, I will spend the last 2 seconds before the AAD fires making it as clear as possible.

I trust my AAD. Conventional wisdom is not to trust it like this, but I trust todays AAD Technology. Running the risks through my head, when your body and brain is running on adrenaline speed you can get a lot done in the time that relying on the AAD can give you. And, deploying a reserve into clear air is MUCH safer than deploying into a muffed up main.

One thing to keep in mind the end goal of all of my emergency procedures is not "just to survive" it is to walk away, break a bone or two or three, or die--no wheel chairs.

Now without jumping all over me and telling me I'm stupid, I would really like some constructive feedback on this. More pro's? con's?

[Fab 0]

Technical Data of cypres expert:
Activation altitude: approx.750 feet (225 m)
Activation speed: approx. ³ 78 mph (35 m/s)

I would not trust my cypres that much. I would pull the reserve myself...please note that your cypres won't activate if your speed is under 78mph...which could hapen if you haven't cut away (completely)????

_______________________________________

[NWPoul 1]

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I have added an additional step to my emergency procedures. In the time gap between cut-away and reserve, I verify my main is gone.

At my home DZ's check for risers - are they away (and if not then make them away) is a part of cut away procedures and training of cut away. Of course, if the main wasn't deployed this check point is senseless


P.S. Sorry for bad english:)

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[gus 1]

How can you justify that level of faith in an aad?

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[BPO 0]

a landing while going 70 mph downwards with no viable way to flare is not landing, it's a crash.

Always pull your handles!

[BenediktDE 2]

Hi Monster,

I am a rather new jumper so maybe I am wrong. But my thoughts:

I would prefere to get the reserve out early. I've just seen two videos where the jumpers had their reserve deployed into a main that still had a line connected with the jumper (in one case it was the foot click for video on the other it was a line catched by a container's flap rigging thread and video).

In both cases the reserve was deployed higher than the AAD alititude and the jumpers both had enough time to get something over their head that flew enough to safe them.

If you manage to clear the main you will not face the problems they had.

On the other hand if you try to clear the main and do not manage to do so until your AAD fires you will not have the amount of time the two above mentioned jumpers had to do what safed them.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[riggerrob 558]

There is a flaw in your logic.

You forgot to consider human reaction times.
By the time the noise travels from your Dytter to your ear, enters your conscious mind and you have thought about it, your Cypres will have fired several seconds before your hands can react.
The other factor is that human reaction time slows down when you get really scared. When bad things are happening too fast, the human mind tries to slow down the outside world to a pace that it can handle. Unfortunately the planet is still rushing up at you at a rapid rate. This phenomenon explains most of the low pulls/no pulls that have killed hundreds of skydivers.

You are thinking too hard.

The best way to prevent double mals is by returning to the basics: pack your main neatly and leave large margins of error (when planing opening altitudes).

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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At my home DZ's check for risers -

Really? Cool!

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How can you justify that level of faith in an aad?

Because its a computer. When properly used, its more accurate and dependable than a human.

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There is a flaw in your logic. You forgot to consider human reaction times.

No flaw. I don't panic when I am about to die. Thats why I am still alive. The speed up the brain/adrenaline thing works quite well for me.--Its a very phenomenal thing.

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please note that your cypres won't activate if your speed is under 78mph...
a landing while going 70 mph downwards...

And yes, if I get slowed down enough that the aad might not fire, I will have to recognize that without going by normal sense of time. That is altered by the adrenaline.

[skyhighkiy 0]

adding to that.

Human reaction time
and human error.
What if, just that once, you forgot to turn it on?


Edit to delete added comment.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[pilotdave 0]

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Because its a computer. When properly used, its more accurate and dependable than a human.

And you jump a Mirage G4, subject to a service bulletin regarding AAD installation. Think about what you're saying.

Edit: this was not a knock on Mirage (well, maybe it was... Bill Booth had solved that problem years ago). My point was the AAD is part of a system, designed and tested by humans. No matter how perfect each component is, they all have to work together to save your ass. It's been proven that a particular AAD installation is not 100% effective. Perfect software isn't always going to work perfectly in the real world.

Dave

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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And you jump a Mirage G4, subject to a service bulletin regarding AAD installation. Think about what you're saying.

Which it is already being taken care of.... And that SB was issued because some people just cannot pack a reserve correctly. I ordered the rig built for that reserve--it is sized correctly. My rigger is awesome. No slop work. So the SB was really a non-issue for me.

[councilman24 36]

You will not be able to judge your vertical speed and make a decision about whether the AAD will fire or not. Relying on the AAD is still a bad idea. Not just because of the technology, but because of the criteria for function.

Too much thought, too little time.

When people were doing two ram air deployment studies is was VERY difficult to get the reserve NOT to open. In fact the army TRIED to get them to entangle and with one exception couldn't. The one exception was the reserve free bag directly hitting the main slider and staying there.

I believe that while you may want to take an appropriate amount of time to try to clear a hung up main, working on it till MAYBE your cypres fires is the wrong answer.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dragon2 0]

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How can you justify that level of faith in an aad?

Because its a computer. When properly used, its more accurate and dependable than a human.

LOL I tend to not have so much fate in computers, since both the hardware and the software can/will act up when you least need it....

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[bmcd308 0]

Even if we assume that the failure rate of AADs is 0.000%, there is still the possibility that you will not have turned it on.

Weekend before last I got a repack when the rigger arrived Friday evening. The rig went in my locker until Saturday afternoon, when the weather cleared up enough to jump. I checked my rig before I put it on the first time, and then I got a gear check. The checker asked me if I knew my Cypres was on. I told him to pull the rig away from my back and look at it. He did, and verified that it was on. I landed, repacked, and checked my gear before going again. Once again, Cypres on verified by me and by the person who gave me the gear check. After landing and packing, I checked my gear before putting it back on.

Cypres off.

Apparently my rigger had turned it on to watch it self test as part of the repack, and I had never looked at it before putting my rig on the first time. Subsequent gear checks by me and by other people verified that it was on, but we never realized it had been on for 12 hours.

It might still have been on if I had waited for it to fire on the last jump, but it might not. I have no idea when its 14 hours were up. Good thing I pulled.

Oh, and I DO have a procedure that I follow for checking my gear before I jump it, and a very thorough one for the first jump of the day. Every day. Every time. Without fail. With no room for error. Without complacency. With careful attention to detail. With the realization that I might die if I do not do it right. However, I am human, and I fvcked it up this time.

Hope you don't.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[obelixtim 100]

Arrrrrgggghh!!!!!!.....NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!.....

There is no point being dead on the deck with your reserve still packed.....its been done before.....lots of times....

There is a very good reason why people are trained from the start of their jump careers to carry out their reserve procedures in a certain way....and this is pretty much standard throughout the skydiving world.......

All these procedures, and the equipment that has evolved over 50 years of sport skydiving are based on experience......and experience tells us this is the best way to deal with nearly all situations that can arise.....We have experience of most types of malfunction...including entanglements with main parachutes.....

Accident and fatality reports are full of the stories of people who tried to second guess ESTABLISHED procedures.......and didn't make it....

Don't try to reinvent the wheel......many skydiving brains have spent a lot of time developing our systems and procedures.....and your scenario has been thought through and considered, AT length....

Your time would be better spent working your risers to make sure there is no "setting" of the webbing, deploying in a stable position, and sticking with your basic emergency training.....

Remember...its a human who programmes, switches on, and maintains your "computer".....

Its a BACKUP device....no more....and no less.....

Your "entanglement" scenario is EXACTLY why the freebag on your reserve was invented....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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Your "entanglement" scenario is EXACTLY why the freebag on your reserve was invented....

Yup, I've unfortunately personally found the freebag to be useful after my reserve pilot chute tangled with my main pilot chute.

This happened because I followed this advice of an AFF instructor with more experience over the AFF with more useful information. Sometimes experience=obsolete. His advice would have been correct if I was jumping old gear. But incorrect for mine.--Lesson learned.

Riggs / AADs everything in this sport is constantly evolving. The procedures should be constantly re-evaluated for correctness with current equipment.... not blindly followed. Thats what I am doing here. Seeking other opinions... so I know what decision to make if I am ever in the situation. I'd prefer to have a plan of action that I am comfortable with.

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In fact the army TRIED to get them to entangle and with one exception couldn't.

Thank you.... Very useful info. But what kind of rigs were they? Canopy? How long ago was this? I don't think the military does this testing on modern sport rigs, but rather old rounds used by Airborne, and huge tandem sized 7 cells used by Special Forces. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Zoter 0]

The "depending on your AAD .....but you are going under the 78mph" worries me, because in the scenario you are describing....I guess its possible ( and even if it was unlikely I wouldnt be wanting to bet my life on it as you would be)
.....how can /would you recognise that whilst trying to get away from your entangled main......I'd say purely from the time its going to take....not personal experience !! that by the time you realise your AAD has not and is not going to fire.....your already way to late, even if you did proceed to pull your reserve.

Another observation that has not already been said which is probably relevant to at least one of the double mals I think you are referring to ( and I am sure to many others)........dont do stoopid things under a perfectly good main at lowish altitudes

[obelixtim 100]

Not sure what you mean by...

......

The free bag did its job?....

maybe you mean "fortunate"

I know gear is evolving all the time....I've lived through some major evolution in 30 years.....

But many of the basic principles remain constant......apart from some minor tweaking here and there......as have the laws of physics, time, and gravity.....

Human fallibility remains constant.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Darius11 12]

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One thing to keep in mind the end goal of all of my emergency procedures is not "just to survive" it is to walk away, break a bone or two or three, or die--no wheel chairs.

I agree with that 100%

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[ryoder 1,384]

You give AAD's *WAY* too much credit. The AAD is a barometer; Nothing more; Nothing less. All it does is measure barometric pressure, and calculates rate-of-descent from those measurements. It doesn't know if you have thrown your PC. It doesn't know if you are under a partially inflated main. It doesn't know if you have cutaway. It doesn't know if you are in freefall, but forgot to turn it on.

I never *EXPECT* my AAD to do anything useful. I *DO* expect it to fire if I throw my PC below 1500, possibly resulting in two-out.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Scrumpot 1]

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agree with that 100%

Must be a "generational thing"...

Although in theory, it might be nice to think you can somehow "manage" the severity of your injuries in this fashion somehow; during almost any malfunction scenario in live-time actual practice, I certainly would not want to try!

Imagine the thought process.... I'm at 1,500ft, then 1k... working through some sort of mal... am I going to be able to ACCURATELY judge: "okay, this one is only gonna break a few bones...." PULL SILVER! Versus: "Hmmmm.... feels like a wheelchair for life kinda scenario, SHIT I don't want that" ....PULL NOTHING - - - I'm "Goin' IN"!

Sorry guys, but that one seems just a bit too absurd to me to just "leave alone".

I'll fall short of someone else's post I've seen in here in the past, relative to "if you go in WITHOUT at least both your handles pulled" (hint: it involves excrement being deposited upon the deceased's body) but c'mon guys.... PLEASE!

Okay now, call me crotchety and condescending...
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[dorbie 0]

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Okay now, call me crotchety and condescending...
-Grant

Never.

It ain't generational. I see a video like the double mal posted recently and my first thought is holy frikin shit, some guy manually grabbing his reserve out of his freebag and spooling it out past his main is bloody heroic, reguardless of what else anyone thinks happened.

I worry about whether I'll have the presence of mind to do the right thing in any malfunction scenario. I practice and visualize but when you're in the shit that only helps so much and talk is cheap. It doesn't count for shit until you've been through it. Triangulating over exactly whether you do one thing vs another based on anticipated outcome is a lot of wishfull thinking but everyone's different. I can rehearse and visualise scenarios but I'm still worried about handling even a basic malfunction, especially low. Look down at 1000ft and reach for your handles and just imagine what you'd do with a mal at that height, I doubt it would be trying to figure out the final outcome, if you think you can even guess that you're probably mistaken anyway.

P.S. it still won't stop me playing fantasy skydive

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[AMax 0]

Last summer I saw a very experienced JM/Canopy pilot landing his reserve while holding a main D-bag (with the main still packed) between his knees. Apparently, he had a baglock, cut away but the main D-bag with all the mess did not separate. He pulled the silver.

I wonder how would your algorithm work in a situation like that

Plus, in a low speed situation there is a chance that after cutting away close to AAD firing altitude, you will NOT generate enough speed for AAD to fire.

[btucker 0]

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After much though of the possibilities and consequences I have added an additional step to my emergency procedures. In the time gap between cut-away and reserve, I verify my main is gone.

Well that is exactly what I've been trained to do.



I started, like alot of Australians on a one action student gear (sos system). When i got my b license i was allowed to be retrained on two action:-


i was trained thus:

look and locate [find and grab those handles]
peel and punch [cutaway]
check [right hand main riser missing]
check [left hand main riser missing]
punch [reserve]
arch
clear [cables]


During the training (which was one on one) we spoke about a hung up riser, the dangers and what to do about it. I'll leave that for personal research, as too many variables.



* Don't change a thing about Emergency Procedures unless you have it signed off by a qualified instructor * [drr, as if!]



Primacy in learning is an issue here too. Un-training your old procedures and replacing them will be harder than learning them in the first place. In times of stress, you often revert or want to revert. Once I started retraining emergency procedures for 2 action system I was told not to jump the SOS system again + not to jump for one week: Then to do the practical jumps on the two action system.


Hope this helps. It's kind of weird for me to think that you don't check...

Blues, Benno



ps: Please be very careful changing anything. It's sad that all too many have gone in with low pulls or no pulls – AAD's aren't perfect (i.e. Mirage service bulletins) and you can forget to turn them on!


edit: You want to be under your reserve high enough to land it in a safe area too, I guess you might not have flown your reserve before either. I believe there was tragically one almost cypres save where the person was killed hitting an obstacle.

[beezyshaw 0]

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Thank you.... Very useful info. But what kind of rigs were they? Canopy? How long ago was this? I don't think the military does this testing on modern sport rigs, but rather old rounds used by Airborne, and huge tandem sized 7 cells used by Special Forces. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong; these tests were conducted with gear that is comparable with today's equipment. And please re-think your plan of action for emergency procedures. Otherwise, my friend, you are putting yourself on what a lot of us with tenure call "the list".
Edited to add...It is extremely unlikely that in the middle of all that is going on in an emergency situation gone awry that you would even hear an audible alarm. I can assure you this is so.