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northcave

Loop the loop under canopy

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Something a Non sky diver asked me today and although I was pretty sure of the answer I didnt know if it was impossible...

Can you get enough speed from your canopy to actually then pull full brakes to invert so your above your main and/or go completly around or fall down into your main?

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A whuffo actually tried to tell me this was possible. I know I dont know a whole lot about this but it seems to me that if you did that, the canopy itself might just flip over and collapse....not you doing a flip over it.

I could be wrong but it just sounds a little far fetched to me. If it IS possible though, I think swooping is about to change. :P

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Yup, you can do a barrel roll. I've never heard of someone actually falling back into their canopy but if you chicken out through the top of the arc it does feel like it *could* happen.

Do a HARD front riser maneuver, 180 or better. Bail out of the dive really hard (double brakes) then let up on one just as you start to come back under the nose of the canopy. Just like other goofy maneuvers (like rear-riser stall helicopters) you should do this WAY up high and away from other canopies. It also works better with a small canopy at a significant wingloading. You can do it on larger canopies, though. And I'm definitely not telling you to borrow your buddy's VX 69 instead of your normal Sabre2 190 to go play, though.

Remember that just like with any other aggressive canopy maneuvers, take a hook knife, be prepared for self induced canopy malfunctions (e.g. linetwists) and do this up high and well away from other jumpers.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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email John LeBlanc at PD for some stories on this very thing. I don't know that he actually pulled it off but he has certainly put more than a few canopies through their paces and I believe he's done close to this one. Our skydiving parachutes are of a different design than those of paragliders and I know they can pull off stunts which would flat out kill anyone trying the same under one of our canopies.

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Yes, it can be done. I have video of it being done, less than 20 feet in front of my lens. Velocity canopies.



Share the video!
Not something I'd want to try but I'd love to see it..
The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

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Not that I actually know what I'm talking about, but I'd be willing to place a good deal of money on a bet that it has not been done with a skydiving parachute. SKYDIVING parachute. Not paragliding. Many times our perspective can lie to us. I believe the original post's description is of a loop whereby the pilot & canopy reverse traditional positions on the way around. Front or back lop? Don't know. Either way, I'd love to see proof and then have the pilot who did it to confirm it. I'd need to see video from a few perspectives because I know one is not enough for truth. So, stubborn ass that I be, I stand by my initial assertion that it cannot be done, has not been done, and is likely a long way from being done. Please, please prove me wrong.

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You're right.

Parachutes cannot build enough speed to climb through the first half of the loop, and maintain line tension over the top.

Paragliders make far more lift than skydiving canopies, and doing acro is what promted then to start flying with round reserves canopies.

What you need is a tail (like a glider) or a weight shift (like a hang glider) to perform a loop. This allows you to build the speed by holding the dive longer, and to rotate the aircraft through the loop at the desired rate.

You are also right that earlier posts were confusing a roll with a loop. The barrel roll happens along the roll axis, the loop happens along the pitch axis.

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I didn't suggest it was a forward loop, the question is whether the body could find itself above the canopy, and the answer is yes. Agreed, there probably isn't enough forward motion to carry a body forward/above/behind in a forward roll, as opposed to a very aligned barrel roll. But in a tight barrel roll, the body is above the canopy.

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Ever so slightly above. A Stiletto will do that. But I think the original scenario was a full loop, with the canopy & pilot in a vertical orientation to the ground, but 108° rotated from the customary configuration; canopy high, pilot low. Unless I am mistaken.

Being slightly above a canopy is not new. It was done with the Excalibur and possibly even the old F-111 PD's. (My time in the sport goes back farther than my memory for details. If it was done with F-111 PD's it wasn't done much.)

So let us re-examine: Barrel roll with pilot slightly above canopy: Yes. Front (or back) loop with pilot completely above canopy and continuing through loop: No. I would say that it might even be impossible for the pilot to be completely above the canopy mid-loop without falling through the canopy.

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If you want to see a sweet barrel roll, check out the video of Jeb and Luigi from the Today show last week.

When Jeb tries to dock, he comes in with a little too much speed, and pushes Luigi a little (and with a 37, any sort of push is a big deal). Luigi takes the energy from the push, and goes with it by rolling the canopy. With Jeb right next to him, the perspective is incredible.

It makes me wish I had the balls to open a canopy that small. I know I would never land one, but I'm close to being brave enough to jump one with a cutaway rig. Not all way there, but close.

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So let us re-examine: Barrel roll with pilot slightly above canopy: Yes.


I'd suggest "Slightly" is somewhat subjective.



Not sure which way you are arguing this. Slightly above? Yes. And that's what the PD photo shows, although it is 'a good one', more than just a typical quick toggle turn. At first, the camera angle makes it look "a lot" above.

You know how the whuffos on the ground look up to see people spiralling under canopy and ask how the jumpers are looping the loop...

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I agree this is a tad more than sightly but I'd also suggest the camera's angle is not agreeing with the facts and is allowing us to perceive something else. Were a whuffo to look at this they'd be convinced the pilot is directly above the canopy in a relatively true vertical-to-earth position. 'tain't so.

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True, but notice in *this* particular shot, the camera is above the canopy and pilot, it's a ground-mounted camera, not a following aerial camera. Look closely, you can see another camera operator in the background on the cliff wall.
In other words, it's not a trick of parallax or angle. There are at least 9 other cameras that show the same image from below, above, behind, and in to two sides.
No, he's not directly above the canopy, but this is more than "slightly higher" than the canopy as well. It's not difficult to look at the angle of incident light compared to the angle of shadow on the cliff wall, and see what's there.
As an aside, there is also a shot in "Keen and Abel" that demonstrates falling into a canopy, if I recall correctly.

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So let us re-examine: Barrel roll with pilot slightly above canopy: Yes.



I'd suggest "Slightly" is somewhat subjective.



Just to be picky here, a LOOP is not a BARREL ROLL, and a BARREL ROLL is not a LOOP.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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The OP didn't specify a loop. The question was, "is it possible to get enough above the canopy so one falls back into it."
The answer is "yes." Aside from the shot posted, there is video of pilots doing exactly that, albeit intentionally.
The suggestion of barrel roll vs loop was brought up by someone other than the OP.

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The OP didn't specify a loop. The question was, "is it possible to get enough above the canopy so one falls back into it."
The answer is "yes." Aside from the shot posted, there is video of pilots doing exactly that, albeit intentionally.
The suggestion of barrel roll vs loop was brought up by someone other than the OP.



You might want to take a look at the title of the thread.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So let us re-examine: Barrel roll with pilot slightly above canopy: Yes.



I'd suggest "Slightly" is somewhat subjective.



Just to be picky here, a LOOP is not a BARREL ROLL, and a BARREL ROLL is not a LOOP.



Um, in aircraft a school type barrel roll is a loop with a continuous roll.
SmugMug

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