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MilliniaS

It doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000....

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My 2 cents...

If I knew him or her, for me it would mean time to stop jumping. See if his partner, kids, family needed comforting or surport, maybe go and notify his loved ones, if no one wanted to take the job of doing so.

If i did not know them, i would make sure he was off the field first and away to the morgue or hospital, jumping whilst he was having cpr is distasful to say the least. (If i was at a DZ and the lifts kept on going, and people knew what had happened and were landing by his shattered body. I would not jump there again)

People don't have enough time for each other as it is, 2 hours out of there day for a dead fellow jumper is not a lot to ask.
2 weeks out of your life for a dead friend is a drop in the ocean.

The planes will fly another day!

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I cannot believe that this discussion is actually going on and that I have been hearing arguments like "the deceased would have wanted us to carry on" or "honoring him by making another jump" (probably as his relatives are arriving @ the DZ and being counselled by the local priest?)

Even the "back in the saddle ASAP" argument is a lame one IMO, I mean come on: what part of "DEAD" did you not understand when you were signing your waivers?

The only exception I'm willing to accept would be a big competition or a bigway attempt - with all the participants fully understanding beforehand what all the others would do, should they be so unfortunate to 'buy the farm' today.

In all other cases I would think that jumping should stop for the remainder of the day in case of a fatality.

Of course, since it can be argued that one could just as well close the DZ for a week or even a month there is no real 'rationale' to do this - except that the rest of the world (who thinks we are lunatics anyway) might stop to tolerate our behaviour.

That - in itself - ought to be sufficient argument in case lack of common decency might carry us where we should not go.

If you cannot wait 24 hours to be 'back in the saddle' and might 'chicken out' if you had to - than 'chicken out' by all means please...

Just my 0,02$...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I cannot believe that this discussion is actually going on and that I have been hearing arguments like "the deceased would have wanted us to carry on" or "honoring him by making another jump" (probably as his relatives are arriving @ the DZ and being counselled by the local priest?)

Even the "back in the saddle ASAP" argument is a lame one IMO, I mean come on: what part of "DEAD" did you not understand when you were signing your waivers?

The only exception I'm willing to accept would be a big competition or a bigway attempt - with all the participants fully understanding beforehand what all the others would do, should they be so unfortunate to 'buy the farm' today.

In all other cases I would think that jumping should stop for the remainder of the day in case of a fatality.

Of course, since it can be argued that one could just as well close the DZ for a week or even a month there is no real 'rationale' to do this - except that the rest of the world (who thinks we are lunatics anyway) might stop to tolerate our behaviour.

That - in itself - ought to be sufficient argument in case lack of common decency might carry us where we should not go.

If you cannot wait 24 hours to be 'back in the saddle' and might 'chicken out' if you had to - than 'chicken out' by all means please...

Just my 0,02$...




It’s all in who you are really. I have been around a lot of death myself. Not in the skydiving world but working in hospitals and spending a year in the down town resort town of Mosul, Iraq. If I didn’t know the guy and he died, yeah it’s sad but I am not going to get all broken up about it. If it is someone I know that might be a little different but even then I cannot tell you what I would do. There have been times when I have had to dig through the severely burnt body of a few guys that I had played poker with just 2 nights before. I moved on and kept working. Others retreated from their jobs to handle the situation that had just happened. No one said nay or yea about it. I know that it is a different world between combat and the civilian world of sport parachuting. You have every right to greave or not greave but we should not judge others for their “respect” or the lack of them showing it because of not shutting down operations.
~El Josh AKA Ruby
DS #149
Yes I only have 3 jumps...it's the magic number dude.

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spending a year in the down town resort town of Mosul, Iraq.



Well, I can see that that would change the perspective on life and death matters somewhat, but I thought we were discussing 'another day at the dropzone' here, i.e. we ARE 'in the skydiving world' and not in an Iraqi war zone (for the sake of THIS argument, that is...).

If it was such a frequent occurance that shutting down operation for the rest of the day in case of a fatality would lead to a permanent shut down - I would go look for another DZ....

Anyway, maybe it is time to quote Michael Herr (from "Dispatches"): "The corpse I absolutely couldn't bear to look at I most certainly will never get to see..."

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I've been through a number of fatal incidents at various DZs. Sometimes the jumping goes on, sometimes we quit for the day. It just depends on a how each person feels. I don't think there is any disrespect in continuing to jump. I wouldn't want my death to shut down the DZ. I would want my friends to get back up in the sky.

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Would you agree that the DZ involved would be part of that practice? The larger, busier DZ's might not have quite the same sense of "family" that a smaller 182 operation might have, and it seems to me that this would make a significant difference in how the DZ might react to a fatality. Same could be said for a boogie; there isn't the same sense of intimate "family" that the small DZ might have.
Do these factors come into play for you? Or do you feel operations should be suspended regardless of the DZ?

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I have never been around for any such situation fortunately.

I'm guessing what would happen at my (182,206) dropzone is that if a load of jumpers manifested after such an incident because they felt they needed to be back in the air, then the DZO would oblige. He definately wouldn't push the issue either way, it would be up to the jumpers. I'm sure some would leave, some might jump, and some would stay and not jump. Chances are that it would shut down for the remainder of the day. Maybe just send up a sunset load or two. Give people a chance to sit down and talk through their emotions before making any decisions.

I'm sure nothing would happen at least untill the ambulance left. Sending up loads before the body is removed I believe is very distastefull. Even during a record or WFFC. Even the WFFC can shut down for 20 min. Like I said, fortunately I haven't been around for a fatality. I have been around for a femur/pelvis/near fatality of a very popular regular during an Otter boogie, and things shut down for about an hour or so untill everyone collected their thoughts.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

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If the "larger, busier" DZ can't produce the common decency to cease operations for the rest of the day it has grown to big for my taste...

Then again, not a single WFFC would have finished if 'my policy' were in place. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking 'from an emotion' here. Having a hard time imagining that you would continue jumping with the people from the sheriffs department and coroners office still at the airport. Having an even harder time imagining scene's as portraied by Stratostar earlier in the thread. Since I run a tiny operation and not a multi plane 365 days a year one it is hard for me to say what I would and would not do @ Spaceland, Perris or Arizona.

As always - YMMV

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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it is hard for me to say what I would and would not do @ Spaceland, Perris or Arizona.

As always - YMMV



It shouldn't be hard to say that you would at the least wait untill the body is off the dz before putting up another load.

That's just respect for the family and friends IMO. If you don't, you truly have become the McDonald's of jumping and are no better than Skyride.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

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it is hard for me to say what I would and would not do @ Spaceland, Perris or Arizona.

As always - YMMV



It shouldn't be hard to say that you would at the least wait untill the body is off the dz before putting up another load.

That's just respect for the family and friends IMO. If you don't, you truly have become the McDonald's of jumping and are no better than Skyride.



I was at Eloy during the holiday boogie in 2006 when there were two fatalities. I knew both jumpers, but most people at the boogie didn't know either.

I happened to be on a load that took off shortly after one of the fatal loads - the incident occurred while we were climbing or on jump run. That fatality happened in the main landing area, and the presence of rescue personnel and the need for them to do their work on that incident (as it had for the previous incident, which had a survivor and a fatality) necessarily closed the main landing area. Everyone was directed to land in the alternate landing areas or out in the desert.

The load I was on wasn't brought down, nor were subsequent loads grounded, even while rescue personnel were working. Yes, there were a few people too obtuse to notice the big red trucks in the main landing area who still attempted to land there despite multiple announcements that the area was closed until further notice, but they were rare.

Once I found out who the fatality was, I sure didn't feel like jumping any more that day, but that was my choice because I knew the deceased. But the vast majority of the people on that DZ didn't, and probably a lot of them weren't even aware there was a fatality; the timing of things at a busy DZ can be such that you might not even be around during the hour or two that operations are disrupted while the actual physical ugliness of fatality, rescue attempt, and cleanup is going on.

I had no expectations whatsoever that Eloy would do anything differently from what they did that day, and I don't think the DZ's decision was disrespectful or puts them in a league with Skyride (which is an ironic comparison given that we're talking about Eloy, anyway).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Well I couldn't believe it myself had I not seen it first hand. Yes the loads stopped for awhlie, BUT it was the people who were standing around an outside manifest area bitchen quite loudly about "why are we shut down, we shouldn't have to miss out on our jumps,because that guys dead, we only have a few hours to get our jumps in" more or less verbatim.

Loud enough I could hear it word for word while working my ass off trading pumps and air input with the other person helping to do CPR. Now I'm no EMT but those who are will tell you on a hot summer day doing it for 10 minutes or so waiting on the real medical help to show up is one hell of a work out!

I'm lucky to jump now where the are a number of trained medical pro's who jump and do the responding to dz medical needs and we stop jump op's till things are taken care depending on what has happened, a death we shut down for the day, luckly only has been twice @ that airfield.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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im glad you decided to re think leaving spaceland. your post reminded me of the first fatality i was around for when i was a newbie myself. i felt the exact same way you do right now. i thought it was totaly fucked up they sent more loads that day.

years later and many jumps, i feel much different as im guessing you will to. your current views comes from a good kind place and there is nothing wrong with that. you are completly entitled to your opinion, but i encourage you to allow others to have their's.

i myself would and have jumped the same day of a fatality. i dont feel guilty or ashamed of that. you may choose to as well some day. if not, thats ok too. you just need to live and let live.

i wont get into a long speech about why i chose to jump. you will understand why on your own after more time in the sport.
ask yourself this;
"if i died doing what i loved, would i want people to stop doing what they love just because im gone?'

pm me if you need to talk. i know these forums can be really harsh when you speak your mind. death is part of this sport, but it still hurts. i understand that so dont hesitate to reach out if your hurting right now. k.
get back in the air asap. its important.
blue skies
jeff
>

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Oddly enough, nobody sees a potential safety issue here? I've never had the experience while jumping but from other experiences, I find it hard to believe that anyone could witness a death and not have some (even minor) problems with concentration, during their following jump. One would think that in a sport, where the majority of participants and their governing body, seem to believe that neither they nor anyone else, can lay-off for as little as a couple of months and still remain aware enough to pull, before they hit the ground....there would be some concern for likely associated safety issues. [:/]

The military regularly uses "safety stand-downs" and often, to great effect. Though we like to think we are at the pinnacle of safety and responsibility, the military has been around a lot longer and has much more experience with safety issues...even those pertaining to skydiving. There might just be a bit of wisdom in following their lead, on occasion.

"T'was ever thus."

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im not sure if im reading you correctly. if your saying that there is a saftey concern for the mental state of jumpers following a fatality i think thats going way too far. maybe there are some that may find themselves in a fragile state but they should ground themselves. i would be pretty upset if i was forced to be on the ground because someone thinks i cant pull due to emotional stress! for me thats absurd.i can, i have, and i will safley jump following a fatal inceident. if i was too shaken up i would stand down on my own.
imo, all this talk about standing down for MONTHS is rediculous!
death is an unfortunate part of the sport but it happens. unless the deceasd was a friend, if you feel you need weeks or months off of jumping because someone died doing what they love, knowing full well that death is a very real possibility in our sport, then you should take a look at yourself and rethink if skydiving is right for you.
name one other sport that closes down when a participant dies. i tried and cant think of one. a guy died in my gym playing raquetball just the other day, the same court was being used by the time i was hitting the showers an hour later. golfers die all the time, no one closes the coarse. the local race track has many fatalitiies each season. they resume racing as soon as the debrit is cleared from the track. why should we be any different?
>

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I don't believe anyone said a stand-down should last for months. If any investigation into an incident takes months, it's time to get some competent investigators.

Take, for example....last year's tandem accidents. That was a case where a stand-down was certainly warranted. Despite all the claims that there were no problems with the gear, alterations eventually were initiated, proving that the gear was, in fact, faulty. Had a stand-down been initiated and had the investigation and alterations to the harness been done, before another tandem went up, at least one life would've been saved.

There are incidents in other sports (particularly racing), where races have been halted to make changes to the track, due to safety concerns.....of course, these are usually the actions of professionals. The yellow flag, is essentially a temporary stand-down.
"T'was ever thus."

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well sure if theres an issue with the dz thats related to the fatality then of coarse shut down so it can be addressed. if the reason is that people are shook up by the fatality then that should be left up to the individual to decide whether they can safley skydive. im just not in favor of that decision being made for me.
a couple years back i was at sdaz when a crew jumper turned low and impacted in the desert. i was on the load that he jumped from. it was the second fatality i was present for. when i saw them take his body away it definatly made me think of my own mortality within the sport but i never felt it was wrong or odd that the planes kept flying. many people spend alot of money to go away to jump in the winter months. to have sdaz shut down for someone dying would be pointless. dont foregt dz's are a buisness and many people are there with an agenda to jump. although its very sad, ya just cant shut down cuz someone burned in. it happens. its part of the sport. the crappy part but part of the whole package.
>

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Absolutely....if it's an incident caused by personal error (failure to pull, packing-induced mal, etc.) a stand-down may not be called for but anytime it's an equipment or gear-related issue....until a cause is determined, at least....activities should be temporarily suspended or limited, to those with a certain level of experience.
"T'was ever thus."

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Someone proposed a mandatory stand-down period of 24 hours after a death, and while I can completely agree with doing something like this out of respect and can’t understand why it would be so unreasonable for those who want to jump in someone’s honor to have to wait a day, even if you aren’t someone who agrees with this, I can’t figure out how any dropzone can think it is reasonable to send jumpers back up when they haven’t had enough time to determine what really happened or at least rule out equipment error—the owner of the dropzone himself was quoted as saying “We don’t know what happened”. Isn’t this the second death at this specific dropzone in just a few months from neither chute opening properly? How can they be sure enough to bet other jumpers lives that there isn’t something wrong with their parachutes?
Did the dropzone disclose that someone had just died to everyone jumping that day? If I found out after jumping someone had died the same day, it would really screw up my head. I’m not talking about is it or isn’t it more respectful to stand down or to jump again as soon as possible, I’m asking why the hell isn’t anyone talking about whether or not it is safe? The part I find disrespectful isn’t as much on behalf of the jumper who died, but in a dropzone not waiting long enough to make sure any possible problem has been solved for the sake of all living jumpers.

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lets say there is a fatality from a low turn at an attempted hp landing. pure operator error that had nothing to do with the facility. what would be accomplished by shutting down for 24 hrs ?
if i die jumping, the LAST thing i would want would be for my fellow flyers to not be able to do what they love beacuse i died doing what i loved. especially considering some people had spent alot of money and time away from their jobs to visit the dz and jump as much as possible. its not that i dont have compassion for the deceased and their loved ones. i just feel that we all know whats at stake and the risks we take to live our lives to the fullest. if we die, we die. at least we went out doing soemthing that is so meaningful to us.
some dz's do shut down, other more busy, larger ones do not.
if i go in feel free jump your asses off!
>

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lets say there is a fatality from a low turn at an attempted hp landing. pure operator error that had nothing to do with the facility. what would be accomplished by shutting down for 24 hrs ?
if i die jumping, the LAST thing i would want would be for my fellow flyers to not be able to do what they love beacuse i died doing what i loved. especially considering some people had spent alot of money and time away from their jobs to visit the dz and jump as much as possible. its not that i dont have compassion for the deceased and their loved ones. i just feel that we all know whats at stake and the risks we take to live our lives to the fullest. if we die, we die. at least we went out doing soemthing that is so meaningful to us.
some dz's do shut down, other more busy, larger ones do not.
if i go in feel free jump your asses off!



I agree entirely with this view... of the limited number of incidents that have taken place when I have been at a dz, one involved a highly arrogant individual who was attempting increasingly high performance landings with low jump numbers, against the advice of several much more experienced jumpers / instructors. He lived but that was a surprise to many given the force with which he appeared to hit the ground. Maybe I am not as compassionate as some who post here, but if he had not survived, I would not have willingly stopped jumping 'to honour' someone who repeatedly ignored good advice (and I know plenty of other people who have the same view).

A slightly different situation (that I did not witness) took place in the UK a year or so ago where someone (subsequently found to have mental health issues) deliberately cut away the risers when under canopy to successfuly commit suicide. I don't know whether jumping continued but I struggle to see what a close down of 24 hours would have done for the experienced jumpers.

One of the other incidents took place at a large and busy (overseas) dz involving a jumper with many thousands of jumps who spiralled in and did not survive. He was with a military group jumping on the far side of the DZ (probably a couple of km away) - jumping military kit etc. Jumping was suspended for a while a couple of days later during some kind of military investigation but I don't see what stopping the jumping of dozens of jumpers who did not know the deceased would have achieved.

I have no problem with people who don't want to jump after watching an incident, and I really don't know how I would react if someone close to me went in, but while there is freedom of choice, I would want to reserve the right to continue to jump.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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>someone . . .deliberately cut away the risers when under canopy to
>successfuly commit suicide. I don't know whether jumping continued but I
>struggle to see what a close down of 24 hours would have done for the
>experienced jumpers.

It may have given the drop zone owner time to determine whether the incident was due to a systematic problem with risers/cutaway system or due to a suicidal jumper. Up to the DZO or ASO or whoever is in charge of such things at the DZ.

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You are trying to equate jump after a fatality with disrespect or lack of caring. Hence, people are placed in the position of defending their jumping, as if it was a morally poor action.

I disagree. I don't think it is a disrespect. It is an event that happened, but you can't change that.

Also, it may be a person that is unknown. On a large dz, there may be 400 people there that day that you do not know. You drive by car accidents each month and it does not emotionally affect you or stop you from driving for the day.

If it is a person that you knew, and it is troubling to you, then don't jump. How you deal with your emotions is your choice, but it is also a personal choice for others.

Example - on a recent record attempt, a person from another country died. His friends quit and left with the body. All others continued. We made different choices. It was not insensitivity, it was what we went there to do.

If you wish to make a public display of your thoughts, go on the ash jump. That is more appropriate and reasonable than a dz shutdown.

At a lesser level, jumpers get injured all the time, and we continue. That is not being uncaring either.

At WFFC, in one day, I personally watched 3 people hit non-fatally and get carried off in an ambulance. The event continued.

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>someone . . .deliberately cut away the risers when under canopy to
>successfuly commit suicide. I don't know whether jumping continued but I
>struggle to see what a close down of 24 hours would have done for the
>experienced jumpers.

It may have given the drop zone owner time to determine whether the incident was due to a systematic problem with risers/cutaway system or due to a suicidal jumper. Up to the DZO or ASO or whoever is in charge of such things at the DZ.



To clarify, my understanding is the jumper physically cut the risers with secateurs (or similar) that he had hidden somewhere in his clothes specifically for the purpose of cutting away. If there was a suggestion of a problem with the cutaway system on the club rigs, I would expect that they would be grounded until checked ..

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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I did a skydive after seeing a fatality during the 2006 Christmas Boogie at Eloy. It was less than 5 minutes after Cliff died. They loaded us on the tram and drove us out to the DC-3. Cliff’s body was in plain view as we drove down the tarmac to get to the waiting aircraft.

It was a bit fucked up for me, but I understand why we all decided to do the jump. We were all standing outside the hanger on a 5 minute call when the accident happened and most of us were already geared up waiting to get on the tram. The DC-3 was a specialty aircraft that was only doing a couple loads per day and we had already paid for our slots.

The Eloy boogie is a major event with hundreds of skydivers. There was just too much going on to simply stop everything and stand down for 24 hours. We saw Cliff & Jay's accident because we were standing in front of the hanger waiting to get on a load. Hundreds of other people were either in the air, or mingling around other parts of the dropzone.

These people didn’t witness the accident and predictably showed far less compassion. The same mixed reaction occurred the following day when Tom died. It really was a mixed bag of reactions. Some people sat there crying, others just acted like nothing happened. I stood there watching them do CPR, keeping a vigil while they tried to save him.

I honestly don’t care what people do after a fatality. I do find it disappointing to read some of the harsh reactions to the proposition of a 24hr stand-down. I do think it is disrespectful to act like you don’t care. I think it is shameful to go on, smiling, laughing and talking it up when a fellow jumper is lying dead less than 300 yards from where you are standing. In the end, you are the one who has to live with yourself. I think the deceased deserve respect regardless of who is “at fault”

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