Tough luck

[AKCrash 0]

I really don’t know where to start this from. But I think your input would be greatly appreciated.

I started skydiving last July. The plan was one skydive as it was something I wanted to do. Tandem wasn’t an option because I was too big (270 lbs at the time). AFF was the only option for me. Got on very strict diet, dropped to 241 lbs (240 max limit) and did my first AFF. Loved it and decided to pursue with the sport.

Since I started, I was known with my rough landings. On AFF 1, I got too scared as it seemed to me that I was coming to the ground too fast. Flared 40 ft above the ground, held the flare and came hard to the ground, but I walked away that day without scratch (Navigators ROCK).

My third landing was smooth butt sliding on Taxi Runway. And yes my instructor didn’t like that at all and I heard very long lecture afterward.

Landings got better with the time but still rough. Because I lost my weight very quickly, I was gaining it back again. However, I completely hid this fact from all of my instructors and was jumping the biggest canopy the DZ had (300 ft).

Fifteen jumps later, I went to 280 and then to 260 as I had total of 38 jumps. I focused on canopy skills after downsizing as I deploy high and play with canopy (practice turns, half braked turns, front risers, back risers, etc).

On my 44th jump, I noticed a lot of traffic after deployment around 3,000 ft. Like I usually do, I sat up wide landing pattern away from all the traffic. Wind was around 25 mi/hr at the time. I have jumped under similar conditions with no incidents. This time, wind was coming from the west which meant it was blowing through the trees. My canopy stalled around 25 ft above the ground. I broke my right fibia and dislocated the ankle there too. Had a surgery done, 7 pins and a screw. Stayed away from skydiving for 12 weeks missing the best season.

I came back as soon as the doctor cleared me. I was still limping, but I couldn’t stay away for more than 14 weeks. As I came back, I focused more on canopy control and landing patterns. Considering my recent injury, I was very conservative with landings as I slide all of them without making any attempt to stand anything up. I didn’t want to take any chances with my bad ankle. I made around 30 skydives within a month. I got my B license and looked forward for the night jump and the high altitude. March 16th was my first attempt with the night jump. It was about to be one of the best skydives I have ever had if it wasn’t for the high flare (Because I wasn’t too sure where the ground was). Unfortunately, I, again, broke my right tibia. This time there was no dislocation because I had so much hardware in my ankle which kept everything intact.

I know that people have had accidents much worse than me, but who else had such a tough luck! Blue skies and stay safe

- Amer

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[tmaricle55 0]

No one said skydiving was going to be easy and I am right there with you! I have had my share of the heavy metal club and continued. It is a personal choice and something you need to figure out if your willing to go through again.

You'll find your way no matter what you decide.

Muff Brother # 3883, SCR # 14796 ICD # 1 - Pres.
Yeah, I noticed and I think it's funny!

[MajorDad 0]

Sorry to hear about your injuries but two landings resulting in broken bones in your first year is unusual especially since:

1. you are a big lad
2. seem to have a history of poorly executed flares and rough landings
3. the first broken bones was on #44 where the winds were 25 MPH - why were you in the air instead of the ground?
4. didnt let the first injury heal before returning to jumping
5. Broke more bones on a night jump due to an improper flare (were you in the lights for landing or off in the boonies?)

This points more to lack of skill/awareness rather than bad luck.

You mention that you have done canopy drills on your own but dont mention if you have done any Canopy Courses or had an Instructor critique your landings. Skydive City certainly is a good location for both.

Also there is added danger when you jump with hardware and you were lucky on the the second broken bone jump that you didnt screw your ankle up permanently.

Hopefully you heal up but before returning to jumping again, have a long sitdown with your local ST&A and work out a program for you to learn how to fly and land your canopy.

Otherwise you will have a short and painful career skydiving.

Blue ones

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[catfishhunter 1]

Ok this is going to be harsh but it must be said. Not being able to land ISN'T Tough Luck or Bad Luck or anything else other then poor training,technique or maybe you just shouldn't be skydiving.

My wifes instructor said it best to her when she slammed into the gournd for the 3rd time. "if you plan to continue jumping and keep landing like that you better be really tough or really stupid"

Sorry to hear you keep breaking yourself. Heal fast

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[labrys 0]

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Like I usually do, I sat up wide landing pattern away from all the traffic.

When you set up your "wide" pattern did that cause you to plan a landing in a area where there was likely to be more turbulence than where the other people were landing or was there likely to be turbulence no matter where you landed?

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Wind was around 25 mi/hr at the time. I have jumped under similar conditions with no incidents.

If you were (or should have been) expecting turbulence no matter where you landed, it very, very possible that choosing to jump in 25mph winds was a bad choice whether or not you've gotten away with it before. It's possible that jumping in those wind conditions was a bad choice regardless of the likelyhood of turbulence.

Were any more experienced jumpers standing down because of the wind?

Not meaning to beat up on you, just asking what I think are honest questions about your choice and the consequences. I hope you heal up well

Edit because I can't read and asked a stupid question

Owned by Remi #?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I'm going on the harsh side also.Not being able to land during the day should have given you a clue that you should not be jumping at night.

If you return to jumping find some canopy training and DO NOT continue sliding in on your ass. It might be safer on your ankle but when you mistime a landing and instinctively pick up your legs you may need a wheel chair the rest of your life.

[skybytch 259]

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If you return to jumping find some canopy training and DO NOT continue sliding in on your ass.

What he said, with the following addition.

Don't know what your wingloading was like on your last jump but. If you know you don't have canopy control figured out it makes more sense to fly a canopy sized such that you can fuck up under it and still walk away. Same thing if you have previous injuries to protect.

Hope you heal fast and well.

[AKCrash 0]

>4. didnt let the first injury heal before returning to jumping

It technically fully healed according to my doctor.

>5. Broke more bones on a night jump due to an improper flare (were you in the lights for landing or off in the boonies?)

The landing area at z hills was very large and it is very hard light it completely up. The second injury was mainly misjudging how high I was from the ground.

Thanks for the advise. As a matter of fact, contacting skydive DeLand was on my schedule for the following week to sign up with one of their canopy classes.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[AKCrash 0]

>When you set up your "wide" pattern did that cause you to plan a landing in a area where there was likely to be more turbulence than where the other people were landing or was there likely to be turbulence no matter where you landed?

I was not aware of any turbulence. As a matter of fact, I didn't pay attention to the fact that the wind was coming through a large side of trees. The reason why I take the large pattern is to stay away from other skydivers. In case I do something stupid, I dont hurt any1 else and no one hurts me. I didn't expect any turbulences that day. As a matter of fact, I made 4 skydives before the injury that day.

Experienced jumpers had no issues with landings at all.

Thnk you for the thoughts.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[AKCrash 0]

WingLoad was 1.1 in the first time and 1.0 the second time

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[MajorDad 0]

So what if the doctor "Technically cleared you".

Your words "I was still limping, but I couldn’t stay away for more than 14 weeks. .......... I didn’t want to take any chances with my bad ankle." 14 weeks after having a plate and 7 pins put in an ankle is pushing it and you certainly cant run out a landing.

And so what if the landing area at Z-Hills is large. Every night jump I have done I have landed in the lights. Landing in the dark is obviously going to mess with depth perception and proper flaring.

The reality is that you are the one driving the canopy and it is your body. You are coming across as someone who isnt taking responsibility for your own actions and blaming it on Bad Luck.

Case in point that when you broke yourself on the jump with 25 MPH winds, you rationallized that it was ok for you to jump despite your history because "experienced people were jumping", rather than realizing the you had no business to be in the air and the safest course of action would be to stay on the ground. You should have noticed that a lot of experienced jumpers dont jump in 25 MPH Winds!

This may be a bit harsh on my part, but unless you start accepting responsibility for your own actions and learning from your mistakes, you will have a short and painful skydiving career.

Good Luck

Blue ones,

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[labrys 0]

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I didn't expect any turbulences that day. As a matter of fact, I made 4 skydives before the injury that day.

Hey AK, thanks for sharing your thoughts. This might sound a little harsh too, but if you jumped in winds at 25mph and you were aware (stated in your OP) that the wind was blowing across or through trees, and you didn't expect turbulence, then you really, really need to find an instructor to review where / when to expect turbulence.

The situation you described in your post is ripe for turbulence and you should have known it. Knowing where turbulence is likely to occur is required for your A license and planning your landing point accordingly (or standing down) should also be a part of your plan.

Owned by Remi #?

[squarecanopy 0]

Hey Crash,
I hear your frustration but don't blame it on luck. I have had similar problems as you ( bad landings, broken leg). Here are the differences in our experiences:
I took 15 months off for my leg to heal although I could have come back as early as 4 months.
I UPsized my canopy to get back to a more forgiving wing loading.
I took a canopy course and learned a bunch.
My wife films some of my landings from time to time. It really helps to see what it looks like from the ground.
I am not bragging. I am saying try to slow down a bit and learn to land well. It makes it a whole lot more fun to get out of the plane if you know the last 5 seconds of the dive aren't going to hurt.
These people that have responded to you are sincerely trying to help and by being (bluntly) honest with you they are showing that they care enough to tell you the truth even if it is hard to hear. GET SOME TRAINING. Progress at a comfortable pace. Don't try to race ahead of your knowledge. "GOOD LUCK" is something that you make for yourself by being PREPARED.
Stick with it!!
Blue Skies, Bill

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[jurgencamps 0]

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This time there was no dislocation because I had so much hardware in my ankle which kept everything intact.

I know that people have had accidents much worse than me, but who else had such a tough luck! Blue skies and stay safe

- Amer

Please consider what will happen if you bent the hardware in your ankle.

[MagicGuy 0]

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I'm going on the harsh side also. Not being able to land during the day should have given you a clue that you should not be jumping at night.

This is what I saw as one of the biggest issues here. Most people have bad timing on their flares because of problems with depth perception. This is something that can be worked out, but it should be worked out during the day.

Your depth perception is going to be even more screwy at night, with strobe lights and ground lights and not to mention the added stress and adrenaline of jumping at night in general.

Heal up, get some serious canopy coaching, and please, don't jump at night until you have your landing issues worked out!

Glad to hear you are in high spirits and want to return to the sky. Landing is the biggest problem it seems and CAN be fixed. Good luck.

[AKCrash 0]

The hardware did bent. That was my orthopedic favorite part about the whole thing as he was not pleased with me at all

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[AKCrash 0]

Thanks..

As a matter of fact, that night jump would have been one of my best skydive if it wasn't for that landing. The view from above was amazing. It was so great to be able to see the city lights and stuff..

I was a little worried as I failed to spot the other skydivers. But beside that, I did enjoy the canopy ride.

I was dying for a high altitude jump which was supposed to take a place the following morning, but unfortunately, it didn't happen.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[Gato 0]

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Landings got better with the time but still rough. Because I lost my weight very quickly, I was gaining it back again. However, I completely hid this fact from all of my instructors and was jumping the biggest canopy the DZ had (300 ft).

No one has addressed this point - that you hid your actual weight from your instructors. It may not make that much of a difference in Z Hills where you'll be in bigger aircraft, but if you were to do that at a Cessna DZ, I would think they'd be pretty pissed-off.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but lying about your weight (Yes, even a lie by omission) might be a dangerous thing. Regardless of what canopy you were flying, those weight restrictions are there for a reason, aren't they? Weight is a factor in aviation, yes?

I don't mean to bash you, AK - I'm very glad you're on the mend, and I hope you can jump again, if that's in the cards.

T.I.N.S.

[AKCrash 0]

I did meet the wieght requirement at first when I started skydiving. However, as I progressed, I became on my own and didn't pay attention to this matter. I weighed myself in the dropzone twice to figure out my wing load. On both times, I broke myself

On another note, I will never lay skydiving off even if I lost my leg

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[airtwardo 6]

On another note, I will never lay skydiving off even if I lost my leg...

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Be careful what you wish for!



~You may want to familiarize yourself with the old 'links in the chain of disaster' theory.

You may be able to get by with one or two 'weak' links for a while but it will eventually catch up with you, three or more, and problems are imminent.

Recognizing the weak links comes from education and experience...the catch 22 is, not enough of either is also a weak link!


. . .would you consider there to be any 'chain links' in your recent adventures?

So ~you are pushing the limits on the beef o' meter, in and of itself not a deal breaker in the skydiving game, but certainly you are at a disadvantage when it comes to the fudge factor regarding canopy control and landing technique.
(not to mention closing 99th)

You have a much smaller 'margin of error' than say someone 50-60 pounds lighter...again, no big deal as long as you KNOW that, and take measures to compensate.
ie. A more educated and conservative approach to canopy control / landing, (and a good pair of jump boots.)

How do you get that?
~in part through education and training, then experience.

Maybe it's just the way you worded your O-P, but I get the distinct impression you may be a bit behind the power curve on canopy control issues, ground and obstacle proximity concerns.

You are not describing anything close to the smooth 'approach-flare-land' hat trick required to make subsequent loads in one day, and the results speak for themselves.
You said you were "known for rough landings", not something very conducive to a long career in the sport...(that might have clued you in on the extra training thing.)

So~ at 44 jumps after downsizing twice and dicking with 25 mph winds, you bent a 'peg' on landing because of a 'possible' lack of skill.

Hey, it happens...but instead of addressing in depth the cause of the ding, and letting it heal 100% (limping ain't healthy) ...you seemingly continued down that same path of too many Twinkies, a smaller that you are competent with canopy jumping in situations quite likely over your head skill level wise *night jump. (link link link?)

Result: Double Ding - same peg.

Good news is, you're not dead or crippled.

Bad news is, you seem to be considering your injuries as a 'tough luck' situation...it's not.
It's incompetence, and that's why you are getting some rather harsh reaction in the thread.

Those of us that have been around the block a few times have seen your situation many times before, and it's frustrating when we see someone with your obvious enthusiasm and positive energy, seemingly go out of their way to derail their involvement in the sport.

If you would seriously like to become something more than a 'tourist' in this game, accept some advise from and old guy as big or bigger than you, that's been doing it without getting dinged for over 3 decades.

-Lose the ego, you gotta realize in your heart your mishaps aren't 'tough luck'...ya just ain't that good, YET.
Excuses and justifications for getting busted up 2X's for the same reason may be good wuffo bar room conversation but your peers are seeing a lotta red flags.

-Don't jump unless you are 100% both mentally and physically prepared for any possible eventuality...especially at your skill level.

Being over weight, limping, on a canopy at the lower limits of what you should be on, in winds to high for your comfort zone, being unable to adjust and land safe in various situations . . .all things spotlighting your lack of understanding or attention to what is required for safe participation.

-Heal up 'all the way' this time, fuck the Doctor's okay. YOU know when you are back to 100% and should have at least somewhat of a better idea than the Doc as to the stresses your body will be facing during a skydive.

-Loss the weight, ya got a bit of time now so use it to get the whole carcass trimmed down...if you are as committed as you seem to be, then follow through on what you need to do...at our size it IS a priority, at your skill level even more so...if you're 'all talk' then just keep eating, just remember the added 'link' in the chain is one you choose to keep...you said you 'didn't pay attention to this matter'..you need to.

-Get MORE training on canopy control, and have a complete and total understanding of said.
Again, at our / your size, the room for error is minimal, realize it and go the extra mile to compensate.
It's not something that just 'comes' without your effort, and without a better understanding and higher competency, history WILL repeat itself.

-When you're healed and healthy, get back on that 300 for a season, or 100 jumps which ever is more.
What's the hurry to downsize...you NEED the experience a forgiving canopy will lend.
Can't get that airtime limping around on the ground.

-Get yourself a good pair of jump boots...something with lots of ankle support.
Being a big guy with glass ankles and low experience ~ you really have little choice if you want to continue.



I hope some of what not only I say, but others have said in this thread ~sink in a little.

It would be nice to have another 'big boy' to jump with, it's up to you to commit yourself to doing what's necessary to hang around for a while...first step is getting rid of some of those 'weak links'.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[MagicGuy 0]

Great post, airtwardo. Listen to him AKCrash!

[ladyhawke 0]

Oh boy, I've had some bad luck myself like:
-breaking my ankle on my very first jump trying to stand up the landing!
-slamming into a metal building due to target fixation (I'm still living that one down), fortunately nothing broken just headache, cut and bad bruising and
-flaring too high (above 25') and bouncing onto the ground which required the bursa sac on my left knee to be removed (nothing broken)!

I don't know if it was bad luck, bad mistakes or bad decisions (whatever you want to call it), all I know is it hurt and I didn't want it to happen again!

So learn, solve the problem and your skills will improve!

In any case, heal fast and if you love skydiving KEEP TRYING!
Blue Skies

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[ladyhawke 0]

Wow that was a really great post! Hope he's reading and learning by it!

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[AKCrash 0]

Jim,

Thank you very, very much for the thorough response. I greatly appreciate that.

I definitely don’t wish to lose my leg or get hurt anymore
I realize that I shouldn’t have called the thread “Tough Luck” It’s a matter of poor skills.

During my rehab time from the first injury, I watched every single malfunction video I was able to get. I also read a lot of safety articles on dz.com such as check list for downsizing the canopy and was trying to practice them. I have made several skydives in which I deployed high and worked on canopy control, but again it was me trying to teach myself. I did not seek any canopy classes formally.
It’s very hard for me to even think about how much time I will be away from skydiving. But I do realize the importance of it now.

Llosing weight is very essential for me. I Once decided to deploy high (9,000 ft) to practice my canopy skills. I exited last after a large way 3 AFF and 2 tandems. I landed before the tandems and one of the AFF students. This story is one of many that made me acknowledge that i decend very fast under the canopy.

I am more than willing to go the extra mile to lose weight in order to be fit for skydiving. Before I started skydiving, and in order to meet the weight limit. I stopped eating for 16 days. I had absolutely nothing to eat. I drank water, orange juice, and carrot juice. In addition, I ran around half an hour daily (at rate of 4.0 mi/hr, yeah I can’t run any faster). After the 16 days, I lost 30 pounds which made me fit the maximum limit for solo skydive at Z Hills.

In freefall, I definitely drop like a rock. Most of my instructors don’t wear any suits when jumping with me. One of them, Eric Hildebrand, once jumped with me without a suit and put 20 pounds on and still had to arch hard to keep up with me. The slowest I was able to get myself to is 136mi/hr. That’s why people could free fly with me[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHegKLVjZLo]

Again, thank you very much for the advices and I will do all my best to work on those weak links. Hopefully we will make a skydive together sometime.

-Amer

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin

[AKCrash 0]

I am glad you are still skydiving even after an injury from the first jump.
I too was going to slam into a metal building. I executed half braked left turn 50 ft above the ground to avoid the building (turned around 40 degrees or so). I did that successfully and landed very smoothly as well. Thanks to Bill von Novak article.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Franklin