mikeee 0 #1 April 26, 2008 YEAH, why the hell not!!?? I run a "cessna" DZ. U/J's pay 22$/seat, IF they show up. 2 tandems w/handi-cam video/stills pay 270$/a pair- ( and I require THEM to make a reservation, if they "stand me up", they lose their $$) Is there ANY reason NOT to require the same "commitment" from the U/J crowd????? I'm sure the U/J's have an opinion about this, but I'm more interested in the thoughts of DZO's, and staff.crazy, NOT stupid............ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #2 April 26, 2008 I dont understand what you mean? Do you mean they are at the DZ, pay for a slot and dont make it?1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #3 April 26, 2008 Do you charge the tandem the full $270 if they no-show? Or just some portion (a $50 or $100 deposit?) The reason you charge the tandem if they no show is that you've reserved 1) space on the plane, 2) tandem instructor time and 3) videographer time. If the tandem doesn't show up, that's lost revenue that could have been gained from someone else, and you've got three people (pilot, TI, vidiot) pissed off, two of whom might not have been there had the tandem not scheduled. Up jumpers are a dime a dozen. If I don't show there'll be someone else hanging around who will want my slot. We're virtually interchangeable and we're hanging around. The tandems have to be told/scheduled/invited to come out to the DZ - they're very rarely hanging out ready to "fill in" if another one no-shows. But if I "no-show" there's usually someone around who's more than willing to fill in for me. And if I "no-show" you're out $22, your pilot was there anyway, and you didn't bring in a TI or vidiot on my behalf. (Now if you're talking about scratching from a load at the last minute, like after the 10-minute call, then yes, I think you're perfectly justified in having a policy like that - or saying that if I can't fill my slot if I scratch after a certain deadline you can charge me for my slot, that's fine). But advance reservations like tandems, I'm not seeing the point, really. But I'm an up jumper and I guess you really didn't want my opinion. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-Scatter- 0 #4 April 26, 2008 Your DZ probably runs like a finely crafted swiss timepiece, but where I jump, it goes more like this: Arrive and manifest on load 9. The tandem that didn't show earlier showed up, so two of us get pushed down to load 13. The someone on 12 gets hungry so I get pushed up to load 12. Jump load 12. Get down, now I'm hungry, so I'm thinking I'll get some lunch before manifesting again. Then someone comes up and says "we need one more on load 14, can you be packed in time." So instead of eating I start packing as fast as my inexperienced packing hands go. Then an AFF wants to redo the level she just failed, so all of load 14 gets bumped to 16. At that point somoene has somewhere to be before 16 is going up, and has to scratch..... How precisely do you plan to set up a reservation system for that? As far as I can tell, hauling up-jumpers around at a single cessna DZ is something to do when there isn't a tandem or AFF taking priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #5 April 26, 2008 Quote Your DZ probably runs like a finely crafted swiss timepiece, but where I jump, it goes more like this: Arrive and manifest on load 9. The tandem that didn't show earlier showed up, so two of us get pushed down to load 13. The someone on 12 gets hungry so I get pushed up to load 12. Jump load 12. Get down, now I'm hungry, so I'm thinking I'll get some lunch before manifesting again. Then someone comes up and says "we need one more on load 14, can you be packed in time." So instead of eating I start packing as fast as my inexperienced packing hands go. Then an AFF wants to redo the level she just failed, so all of load 14 gets bumped to 16. At that point somoene has somewhere to be before 16 is going up, and has to scratch..... It does seem to be a bit of a novelty, when I get to jump with the same load that I was originally manifested on."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #6 April 26, 2008 Quote YEAH, why the hell not!!?? Because that is an inconvenience that would piss people off, then they would go jump at your competitors dropzone that does not have such a silly policy. But I am an up-jumper, not a DZO so I guess my opinion doesn't matter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #7 April 26, 2008 How do you define an Up-Jumper? - Is it a regular sport jumper? If so, I'm not going to reserve any jumps (except coach jumps) before I get to the DZ. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpin_Jan 1 #8 April 26, 2008 What penalty to the DZ for missing a scheduled lift? PULL! jumpin_Jan"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
derrickiv 0 #9 April 26, 2008 The AFF that wants to redo the level they failed should get bumped to 16, not the other way around. At Mile-Hi I think they require tandems to show up a good amount of time in advance. Granted, Mile-Hi is a twin otter DZ so space is not as much of an issue, but typically reservations just mean, you'll get to jump in that order for AFF and tandems.. reservations don't mean certain loads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #10 April 26, 2008 gimme half price and I'll make a reservation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodpecker 0 #11 April 26, 2008 I make a reservation at every dropzone I jump at.....when I manifest. If I'm expected to call ahead of time and reserve times/slots beforehand...I'm going somewhere else. Things happen and things come up. Now if I manifest and I dont make the load...I expect my ticket to be 'spent' as well (unless the fault of the DZ and not me just forgetting to show up) SONIC WOODY #146 There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #12 April 26, 2008 QuoteYEAH, why the hell not!!?? I run a "cessna" DZ. U/J's pay 22$/seat, IF they show up. 2 tandems w/handi-cam video/stills pay 270$/a pair- ( and I require THEM to make a reservation, if they "stand me up", they lose their $$) Is there ANY reason NOT to require the same "commitment" from the U/J crowd????? I'm sure the U/J's have an opinion about this, but I'm more interested in the thoughts of DZO's, and staff. I'd pay for reservations if you could guarantee I and the rest of my group would be on a load at a given time. Too much of the time the load doesn't go because it's not full, we move to a different one to make room for students or a larger group.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #13 April 26, 2008 Quote Arrive and manifest on load 9. The tandem that didn't show earlier showed up, so two of us get pushed down to load 13. The someone on 12 gets hungry so I get pushed up to load 12. Jump load 12. Get down, now I'm hungry, so I'm thinking I'll get some lunch before manifesting again. Then someone comes up and says "we need one more on load 14, can you be packed in time." So instead of eating I start packing as fast as my inexperienced packing hands go. Then an AFF wants to redo the level she just failed, so all of load 14 gets bumped to 16. At that point somoene has somewhere to be before 16 is going up, and has to scratch..... Thats my DZ...who r u? HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hayfield 0 #14 April 26, 2008 Tandems and students are where the money is and are a priority always. Up jumpers WILL wait and should expect to at a cessna dz because they are not the priority. Are you about to push a tardy tandem student back a load because an U/J has a reservation? I doubt it. To quote Seinfeld, "Anybody can take a reservation, but the key is to hold the reservation." I don't see how you can reasonably expect to create a reservation system for this situation. Besides, the cessna dz is so 20th century, get a turbine already! "Remember the First Commandment: Don't Fuck Up!" -Crusty Old Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #15 April 27, 2008 I like this reply. We all have to remember that Tandems and Student jumps is the Dropzones Bread and butter. For the most part the profit margin on a load entirely of sport jumpers isn't as much as a loat of tandems and video. We just basically take the ride up and help to pay for gas. Much like the Greatful Dead song, "Touch of Grey," tandems are a mixed blessing. They help to keep the cost of jumps down for sport jumpers, but at some DZs they bump sport jumpers for TandemsDivot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyimpaired 0 #16 April 27, 2008 QuoteIs there ANY reason NOT to require the same "commitment" from the U/J crowd????? The last two posters have a good point. You're going to be kicking yourself the first time you have to turn away a 270 dollar tandem because the rest of the day is booked for up jumpers and you have to honor their reservation. If I were to see a web site or call ahead and learn that a DZ required a reservation and deposit for me to schedule a jump I would simply assume that DZ was strictly a tandem factory uninterested in upjumpers and making it difficult in an effort to disuade them from coming. I would do you the favor and not show up. Even if it was a fun DZ I would hate to meet some interesting people that I would love to jump with, only to find out that my "scheduled slot" is a solo following a tandem take it or leave it, you've already got my money. Good luck. "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #17 April 27, 2008 Exactly the downside of a DZ operating only a 182 that is running mainly as a tandem mill is that Tandem plus Vidio = solo jumper... now if it had a 206 or the 207 that might not be so bad. Unless you can book a load for a 4 way. I know Dropzones do that, but it isn't very cost effective for them.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #18 April 27, 2008 QuoteTandems and students are where the money is and are a priority always. This is not necessarily true at turbine DZ's although a lot of DZO's think so. If I have 10 tandems at average of $150 each, I collect $1,500. And if I have 15 up jumpers doing 5 jumps each at $20 I collect another $1,500. Remember most tandems do one jump, up jumpers will do 100-300 per year. Sure you have to incur more costs to get the same gross revenue, but it's something that I would not ignore if I was a dzo. Besides that the up jumpers add the personality and atmosphere to the dz that will make some of the tandems want to come back. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #19 April 27, 2008 Also with the turbine DZs they are limited by the number of Tandem Instructors they have. Lets look at it a 182 DZ can crank out a lot of loads with 1 TI and 2 rigs. However when you no longer can fill the plane with tandems you need to bring in more money to increase your profit margin.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #20 April 27, 2008 Quote Quote Tandems and students are where the money is and are a priority always. This is not necessarily true at turbine DZ's although a lot of DZO's think so. If I have 10 tandems at average of $150 each, I collect $1,500. And if I have 15 up jumpers doing 5 jumps each at $20 I collect another $1,500. Remember most tandems do one jump, up jumpers will do 100-300 per year. Sure you have to incur more costs to get the same gross revenue, but it's something that I would not ignore if I was a dzo. Jim, you're a CPA, so maybe you're seeing it from a better perspective than me, but this seems funky. Due to the increased costs of flying up jumpers, seems like tandems and students ARE where the money is...if only because of margins. By your numbers, it costs the same to put 11 tandems in an Otter and make $1650 versus putting 22 up jumpers in the Otter and making $440. Sure, you're making the same gross revenue, but based on the net income after expenses, it's obvious that tandems and students are far more profitable. Even if you consider the volume of up jumpers every year - fact is, the ROI is still less per up jumper. (Not that you can't make money on up jumpers...but given the difference in profit margins, I can't say I blame a DZ for giving priority elsewhere.) That being said... ------- Back to the OP, I agree with what most have said. If I made a reservation, I would expect that the loads run on time, and I get first priority - over tandems, students, and whomever else reserved after me. (But I wouldn't make a reservation to begin with - I'd go to the other DZ down the road that lets me come and go.) Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,051 #21 April 27, 2008 Quoteand I require THEM to make a reservation, if they "stand me up", they lose their $$ I'm just curious... do you happen to split that deposit with the TI's who showed to do the forecassted number of tandems, but also lost revenue on the "no show?"Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #22 April 27, 2008 To add to that, up jumper and student jumper slots/dollars should be made to work together. Up jumpers can be used to assure there are few vacant seats on the planes. If it were not for the up jumpers there would be no pool from which to get new videographers, coaches and instructors. To be successful a DZ must realize the value of both and how they mesh together, then encourage both. If you as a DZO discourage the up jumpers, then you are expecting other DZs to produce your tandem instructors, which is pretty short sighted. Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 6 #23 April 28, 2008 I say screw those up jumpers. You don't need 'em. Let them find somewhere else to jump. And they can take all those friends, relatives, co-workers and people they meet at the bar who want to make a jump with them. Hell, let them start up a jump club a town or two away and buy their own plane to make those fun jumps. Sure they may have to buy a tandem rig or two to help support the club. But who needs 'em.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyimpaired 0 #24 April 28, 2008 - Let me preface this with "I don't know anything about running a DZ" I can see Jims point. As an individual customer if I were to travel to his DZ (which I would really like to do in the future) I would plan on making at least 12+ jumps. Lets say a tandem nets him 50 dollars and takes up two slots on the plane. One friend and I would take up the same amount of space and if we were to each net him 2 dollars per jump we would profit him 48 dollars over the course of the weekend. Not to mention we would do more for keeping the plane moving. If your not moving your losing. I can see how if your grossing the same amount over the course of the weekend it would help greatly with insurance and other cost along with giving your pilot the hours he needs to pay his bills more so than the individual tandem might. I realize that a tandem is definitely more profitable than an up jumper on a single load but they might not be more valuable. All of the "Great" Dropzones (at least by my standards) place a high value on the up jumpers and seem to reap the benefits from that. They get the cream of the crop when it comes to instructors (most instructors are up jumpers too :)) they get the word of mouth business since all the fun jumpers in the area jump at their DZ, they get the destination jumpers that have heard about how fun this DZ is. Their plane moves more often which gives them more options for larger aircraft and keeps money in your pilots pocket. Jim is a perfect example of this. Every friend of mine that has been there and dozens of people that I've met all sing praises of his DZ. I would go out of my way to jump at his DZ. The exact opposite could be said for the OP's DZ. Based on the experience of others I wouldn't go out of my way to make a jump at SD the Rockies. And that is the value of gearing your operation to up jumpers in my opinion. "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyimpaired 0 #25 April 28, 2008 Here is another perfect example. At our little make believe DZ you just ran off Sandy Grillet. And when Sandy leaves there goes half your DZ. I've known Sandy for years. I've never jumped with Sandy. (<----Belly flyer) But Sandy encouraged me to get into competition skydiving, and now with a big thanks to him I have a VRW medal from Nationals hanging on my wall. This is not some individual jumper that messes up your organization and gets in your way of making money. This is THE guy that gets people excited about skydiving, this is THE guy that raises the skill level of everybody he jumps with. This is THE guy that tends the flock of all of your up and coming jumpers, all of your future coaches, video guys and instructors. Your ship has sailed and whichever DZ Sandy ends up jumping at just hit the jackpot. "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites