peckerhead 0 #26 May 2, 2008 Well said Kevin! I could not have said it better! What is interesting to me is that most old time jumpers seem to favor treating a pilot chute in tow as a total and pull the reserve. The younger crowd thinks you cutaway first and then pull the reserve no matter what. Since RSL's have become almost standard on every rig my concern is that in a total situation they may think a cutaway will also deploy the reserve. It seems that people who have seen gear transition over the years have a bit better understanding on how things work. I was always taught a pilot chute in tow is a total malfunction, get flat, pull your reserve. Stop the ride and then sort things out. This is still what I teach. There is nothing out to cut away so don't waste precious time. Two out situations are usually manageable as long as both canopies are still attached to the harness. I think you have a greater chance of entanglement if the main is disconnected with no anchor point. Different situations require different responses, no reason to cut away a total and in my opinion you are likely to make things worse. That said what ever method you decide stick with it and have a plan. More later, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,338 #27 May 2, 2008 Hi peckerhead, QuoteTwo out situations are usually manageable as long as both canopies are still attached to the harness. I think you have a greater chance of entanglement if the main is disconnected with no anchor point. That is what killed Donk back in '78 at Ralph's place. He was jumping a rig that had been converted to a throwout. When he tossed the pilot chute it failed to pull out the doubled-over Type 4 line that was used to keep the main container closed ( no pin back then ). He then pulled the reserve ( a round canopy ) and had a good, functioning canopy overhead. The opening shock allowed the main ( a square ) to get out of the container; it then got out of the bag and was swirling around. He cut it away and it slid up the suspension lines and choked off the reserve, resulting in a streamer. Ralph was flying and watched the whole thing happen. You might ask him about some day. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #28 May 2, 2008 A few years back I made a hop and pop on a friends rig to check out the flare authority it had. I had done a thorough gear check and new the bridle was correctly routed. I took about a two second delay and pitched the standard non collapsible pilot chute. It towed for about another two seconds before I looked over my shoulder and saw a normally inflated pilot chute. I reached back, grabbed the bridle and manually pulled the pin and had a perfect opening. I'm not saying that's what anyone else should do, but it worked for me. It probably would have opened fine at terminal but the pin was to tight for sub terminal. Now an uncocked pilot chute is a whole different animal. The argument to cut away first or go directly to the reserve is still up for debate. Fate usually shows what the right decision was. It gives me the creeps to dump the reserve with something in tow, but you can take the rest of your life to decide, if you so chose. I've dumped my reserve with an unstowed toggle flapping around up behind me after I took the half hitch off my wrist without cutting away. Opened fine. I suppose it could have just as easily got snagged on something. How it got on my wrist was filming a tandem opening on my back and bad gear maintenance. Damn that old velcro! "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #29 May 2, 2008 I have heard the story many times Jerry, my cousin was one of the students Donkey put out before going in. He was jumpmaster on a load of static lines. As I recall it was a needle fold bridle in a bungee closing loop. (no pin) If he would have cut away first the same thing would likely have happened. He would have been just fine riding them both down and not cutting away at all. I have seen many round/square two out landings without incident. Two squares is a bit more tricky but the same principle applies. On a side note I am pretty sure that was in 77 and remains the one and only fatality at Beaver Oaks in over 31 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,338 #30 May 3, 2008 Hi peckerhead, Just to keep you honest; it happened in '78, about two weeks after my son was born. That is why I know the year. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #31 May 3, 2008 QuoteQuoteAt terminal you will still be getting 150-200lb of force from your reserve PC is this a fact? not questioning you just curious about this sort of data. anyone know what the average ammount of force it requires for a main pin to pull? sorry its off topic! Booth did some R&D on the pull force of a standard pilot chute. Somewhere else in poynter I found the coefficient of drag comparison for a number of reserve and popout PC's and used the comparison to extrapolate that the pull force would be similar. The force to pull a main pin out should be somewhere around 12 lbs. I was packing a vector 2 reserve this week and I believe that's what I saw as I was flipping through it. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #32 May 4, 2008 QuoteHi peckerhead, Just to keep you honest; it happened in '78, about two weeks after my son was born. That is why I know the year. JerryBaumchen I stand corrected, I was only 15 and not old enough to jump yet. I started jumping at Ralphs in 1981. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
