sundevil777 93 #1 November 1, 2004 Within the thread concerning the AZ fatality, it was mentioned by a jumper that he had experienced a spinner on a canopy loaded at 1.4 that was nearly impossible for him to raise arms to handles. Of course many have been able to cutaway from spinners at higher loadings, 1.4 is not so extreme, so maybe that particular spinner was uniquely severe? However, as loading goes higher, I would be interested to see the g-load applied when typical spinning mals happen, how quickly does the max g-load get applied? Also, at what g-load is the avg jumper able to still get to their handles? I suppose this must not be too big of a problem, or there would be many incidents like this, but I think it might deserve more study. Has this already been studied? What do you think?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #2 November 1, 2004 Since I was the one who posted the near impossible pull at 1.4 to 1 wingload, I'll tell you the details. First there wasn't an issue of not being able to raise my arms, it was not able to pull the handle. When higher performance canopies, were becoming the norm, little was realized about what would happen when a jumper experienced spinning line twists. I borrowed a rig and the riser cover came open. The toggle had escaped. I tracked off on my back and felt the toggle smack my helmet. So I just stopped turned over Noticed our cameraman lurking to see what would happen, and I pulled. The canopy opened and then flung me into line twists before I could release the other toggle. My head was pinned down and I was spiraling on my back. "bugger" (probably not what I really said)... I Grabbed both handles and peelled the cutaway and started pushing, then I let go of the reserve handle and pushed with both hands. "Major suckage". About that time I was pretty scared and Pushed with every ounce of strength I could muster and it released. "whew" pulled the reserve handle. and all was well. I'd actually hurt myself pushing so hard. At first we blamed it on reverse (Integrity) risers and soft housings. Soon after that, it had come to light that high wingloads, line twist down the risers and spiraling at the same time is a deadly combination. The cables were pinched in the line twists, so the pull force was intense. Hard cable housings tacked into the channel on the risers has made this problem nearly non existant. Lou Pointed out in the incident forum that it was not an ordinary skydive. Bill also pointed out the rig was a 3 parachute set up. That is something I over looked while posting. The release handles on a 3 parachute system are are usually on the back of the risers of the test canopy. If it's line twisted so badly... (and mind you this is speculation in the case of the AZ fatality) ... the handles are difficult if not impossible to get to. Couple that with spiraling rapidly under a canopy that can fall at or near freefall speeds. I've jumped a 3 parachute system many times. The set up I used had 3 rings added to the risers of the main canopy. If you couldn't release the test canopy, you had to toss the main pilot chute out and see what happens. Then use your regular cutaway to release the whole mess. If you have a set of separable D rings connected under your main set of 3 rings, If you can't reach the handles of the test parachute, there is no other way to release the canopy. I do not know what kind of system was in use. But reading Lou's report, as toned down as it was, makes me think how radical that spin was and how little time was available to remedy the situation. The jumper that Deuce mentioned, said he had a quick moment that he could have cutaway and he didn't take it. He was spinning so fast he either couldn't reach up to grab, or he was losing useful consciousness. When the line over cleared, he gained useful consciousness and finished his emergency procedures. If you don't have riser inserts, have them installed. That would be the biggest concern to take care of first. The 3 ring release is a remarkable little device and it works very well. Improperly made, it still works reasonably well. I hope that helps. Thanks for reading.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LearningTOfly 0 #3 November 2, 2004 QuoteThe cables were pinched in the line twists, so the pull force was intense. Great (insightful) post! I've never consiered this... although I don't fly high wing loadings either, but having your risers spin up would definately make your day a bit more exciting than usual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #4 November 2, 2004 Thanks for clarifying the details of your incident.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #5 November 2, 2004 I've had one chop, a spinning on my back,no doubt what to do with it ride I'll never forget.The rate of acceleration was incredible.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #6 November 2, 2004 QuoteI Grabbed both handles and peelled the cutaway and started pushing, then I let go of the reserve handle and pushed with both hands. "Major suckage". About that time I was pretty scared and Pushed with every ounce of strength I could muster and it released. "whew" pulled the reserve handle. and all was well. I'd actually hurt myself pushing so hard. Peal the velcro...THEN pull... Just kidding. That sounds pretty bad.....Riser inserts are cheep and easy fixes...They were not needed in the days of docil canopies, but today a 1.4 is not considered "high". Also even a big canopy can have high "G"...G force is caused by the speed...And a big canopy can mal bad enough to spin like hell....It is harder to do, but it can happen. Simple fix? Get riser inserts....I like the ones from RW that are metal better than the plastic ones (I have seen them become kinked)...But even the plastic ones are better than nothing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #7 November 2, 2004 Interesting question. I have had a spinning mal with my velocity where I had difficulty cutting away. The G forces were enough to give me tunnel vision. Everything went OK. Here is the real hammer. Last saturday I exited at 5000 ft and pulled after about 5 secs. Hop and pop to practice swooping. After pulling I felt the normal tug of the pilot chute, the start of a snivel and then bamm I suddenly started spinning so violently that the only other thing I could notice was the incredible pressure of blood in my feet. It was almost like a temporary blackout. Thankfully the spinning stopped and I looked up to see a lot of line twists. I do wonder what would have happened if the spinning had not stopped on its own accord. I don't remember doing anything to stop it. I have been thrown around a few times on my velocity but that opening was something really different. B.T.W I do have hard riser inserts. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #8 November 3, 2004 I don't think many of us appreciate how quickly we can be rendered blind (redout or blackout), or even unconscious by a rapidly spinning malfunction, especially when you start with a "killer" opening shock that can easily scramble your brain in an instant. Your chances of regaining stability, and pulling your reserve handle quickly after such a breakaway, decrease with every extra second you ride your malfunction. You must be "spring loaded" in your reaction to such a perilous situation. It must be "automatic". There may not be much time to think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #9 November 3, 2004 My Samurai loaded at 1.4 to one spun me fairly badly back in August at Jumptown. I have experienced G -forces in the past but in this instance.. I started to try to work with this thing but with the slider hung up assymetrically on the brake lines on the left side of the canopy and getting faster and faster into the spin I decided it was time to chop. I chopped at what I would guess to be about 4G.. It was to the point of making it a little harder to see my handles.. but I got them and executed as I practice.. before EVERY jump so that they are automatic to my mind and muscles. This was my first eliptical cutaway.. and it amazed me just how fast that spin developed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #10 November 3, 2004 QuoteQuote Peal the velcro ...THEN pull... Just kidding. Ha! actually it's peel the velcro... THEN pull Mock my grand writing skills why don't ya If you think about it though it really is push. Yep you're right, 1.4 isn't considered that high anymore. I like the words Bill Booth used... "You must be "spring loaded" in your reaction to such a perilous situation. It must be "automatic". There may not be much time to think" Nowadays that's about how it is with me. The moment it appears I'm screwed, the canopy is gone. Spinners aren't worth wasting time. You can usually tell immediately if getting out of it is an option. A few people laughed when I showed them a video of an expedient cutaway. My team mate laughed as well but for different reasons. He said " That was going to be ugly in about 2 more seconds... good call" Spring loaded in your reaction... I'm going to use that one. Metal inserts. Many posts have been written about metal inserts. There's no reason to jump with out Them. I learned by experience as have many others. Don't learn that one by experience.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy 0 #11 November 6, 2004 Just some thoughts after reading about Chris... Apparently the hard riser inserts aren't/weren't really an issue in that case, though it has made a few reconsider them. The issue really then appears to be a GLOC one, and it is obvious with todays canopies that this can happen to almost anyone of us. 2 issues to consider: 1- Cutting away before GLOC, or 2- an improved AAD/ G-load type device after GLOC. Someone had a similiar GLOC and couldn't reach up to his cutaway handle,, so maybe put someting lower, like by your hip similiar to those on a B-man suit, manually activated by the pilot. I'm no engineer either, but a G-load type of automatic cutaway should be easily desingable today and I would think could be done cost effective enough for most to afford. I would think by looking at the video of Chris' spin frame by frame some kind of rotational speed could be determined and help fill in the blanks of the physics problem. Then the timeline for events to occur before a cutaway would have some referance. There was an example given that showed a regular AAD may never fire in a spin due to the relatively slow vertical descent rate, even though there is a rotational speed with enough G-load to incapacitate the pilot. Thats some scary shit! It would seem a good idea to have both systems compatable and in place. Peace to Chris, his family and friends. Billy Natural Born FlyerZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
treeman 0 #12 November 6, 2004 can this type of spinnig mal occur with larger canopies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #13 November 6, 2004 Yes, as previously stated a larger canopy can malfunction badly enough to encounter g-forces high enough to make it hard to reach handles and cause loss of consciousness. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #14 November 8, 2004 QuoteYes, as previously stated a larger canopy can malfunction badly enough to encounter g-forces high enough to make it hard to reach handles and cause loss of consciousness. From a line over type asymmetry, or from merely doing a hard turn? I know with a hard toggle you can cause a bad twist in a bigger chute, but once it's open and flying can you put it into a sustaining spinup like this incident on the -21? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LiveLifeGoJump 0 #15 November 8, 2004 Quote Mock my grand writing skills why don't ya If you think about it though it really is push. Words don't matter, actions do. I was taught to PUNCH (instructor asked us to imagine the devil grabbing our legs and we were punching him in the face to make him leave go) the cut away & PULL the reserve. I alway remember the Greek student who, after the deployment count, checked his 'can of peas'. Again the instructor didn't bother about correcting the words, just made sure the action was correct. Moral of this: Don't die while decieding whether to pull, punch or push, JUST DO IT. Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LiveLifeGoJump 0 #16 November 8, 2004 Quote The issue really then appears to be a GLOC one GLOC? Not heard of that before, what does it mean. Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skaterboi 0 #17 November 8, 2004 yeah sorry me too - what's a GLOC?? ~ times is * time was * times past ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #18 November 8, 2004 QuoteFrom a line over type asymmetry, or from merely doing a hard turn? I know with a hard toggle you can cause a bad twist in a bigger chute, but once it's open and flying can you put it into a sustaining spinup like this incident on the -21? I think it (larger canopy) would have to be a under a fair amount of wing load and have a major structural failure or one side of the canopy twisted in to the lines, or some such. But if you make some extreme control input you can get some rather wild reactions even in a larger canopy with a med - high WL'g. Imagine this... New upjumper with 30 odd jumps decides to experiment (above normal deployment altitude of course), he's jumping a 210 that he borrowed at a 1.2:1 WL (He's a bigboy). He decides to take a couple wraps of a steering line with the toggle so as to get a more extreme control input, puts as much as he can into the turn into the turn trying to get some wicked spirals and the canopy spins up the lines locking the control input in place. If this is sustained (No appropriate E-procedures) and continues to build speed this jumper could experience pretty much the same subject scenario that we've been discussing. This sport is unforgiving, you can do everything right and still die, if you decide to screw around... You might get screwed! ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 November 8, 2004 QuoteQuote The issue really then appears to be a GLOC one GLOC? Not heard of that before, what does it mean. G-loc stands for G-force loss of conscious. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LiveLifeGoJump 0 #20 November 8, 2004 Thanks for that. It's something you may not realise can happen under canopy, but it can. It makes every (split)second count with this type of mal. Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pywas 0 #21 November 15, 2004 Quotecan this type of spinnig mal occur with larger canopies? Yes it can, I cutaway my 220 canopy when one of the toggles get caught in the lines, after 5-7 seconds triyng to release it I get a cool spin, deside to cutway, but couldn't pull with one hand, have to use both Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpgod 0 #22 February 18, 2005 So, after some discussion we can conclude that? 1) use hard cable housings 2) get a CYRESS 3) ?"dude, where's my main?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #23 February 19, 2005 Yes, hard housings are the only way to go. I would not expect many spinning mals to descend fast enough to activate a cypres. This is a cypress (see attached) People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
