So whats it actually like flying these 'racer' canopies

[humanflite 0]

Hey folks,

Im now on my AFF consols and am looking forward to graduating onto my A license ASAFP

I am currently using a 240 now I have done a few good landings for my last jumps, and although it is a 'bit' more responsive than the previous 280, Im wondering what its actually like to fly a Velo 90 or Xaos or one of these 'hankerchiefs' as I sometimes call them!!!

I am asking this out of curiosity as I fully intend to follow a careful and steady canopy downsizing path at the discretion of my instructors (or ex instructors as they will be soon).
Here are my main questions.....

What is a cross braced canopy (ala Velo) and why are they so notorious to fly?

What was your first jump on a sub 100sqft canopy like?

What is your favourite small canopy..and why?


Thanks folks. Im just really interested to hear from experienced pilots about how really small wings are to fly

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[NewGuy2005 51]

Easy question. Just browse the "Incidents" forum.

[humanflite 0]

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Easy question. Just browse the "Incidents" forum.

lol

I was hoping for the answer to be by people with experience on these canopies.

and I do read the incidents forum...!

[in2jumping 0]

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Im wondering what its actually like to fly a Velo 90 or Xaos or one of these 'hankerchiefs' as I sometimes call them!!!

Get into your car get it up to about 60 mph and then jump out. That is probably what it feels like when you make a simple mistake under one of these canopies.

[Peej 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2854574;search_string=x%20bracing;#2854574

Here is a thread on what makes a x-brace canopy different to a normal 9 cell canopy.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[wetswooper 0]

It's like driving a racecar....with no brakes.
I just love that..
and my JVX


They are simply so much faster (than a 150 sabre) in everything...in good and bad. (But there's similar difference when you compare a 150 to a student canopy) The biggest difference with that is that those are canopies that you have to "drive" all the time. You can't just hang in there. And your thinking has to be a way ahead of your canopy. Otherwise you are going to end up in a situation where there's not enough time to think or even react and save yourself. The canopy's speed increases dramatically but it still can't brake down any better than your student canopy.
...'cause there are no better "brakes" than in your student canopy.

[Trae 1]

These "wow they're so good " canopies and their pilots are responsible for perhaps the most grief skydivers and their families have ever suffered.
Never in the field of human endeavour have so many people hurt themselves for so little reason.

What are they like to fly ?????

They are obviously just too much fun.

Take your time getting there buddy and you might just get there.

[napvid 0]

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2854574;search_string=x%20bracing;#2854574

Here is a thread on what makes a x-brace canopy different to a normal 9 cell canopy.

Ok, so after reading this thread on x-brace canopies and seeing the word (efficient) used more than once once to describe them, I was wondering up to what size do they make a x-braced canopy?

I have a Saber 2 190 wing load about 1.3 it flies great and I love it. I'm not looking to down size any time soon as I still have a lot to learn on my current canopy.

I'm just curious if they make a 190 x-braced canopy (pros & cons) because I'm all about efficiency

“As you know, these are open forums, you’re able to come and listen to what I have to say.” –George W. Bush, 10.28.03.

[Fast 0]

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2854574;search_string=x%20bracing;#2854574

Here is a thread on what makes a x-brace canopy different to a normal 9 cell canopy.

Ok, so after reading this thread on x-brace canopies and seeing the word (efficient) used more than once once to describe them, I was wondering up to what size do they make a x-braced canopy?

I have a Saber 2 190 wing load about 1.3 it flies great and I love it. I'm not looking to down size any time soon as I still have a lot to learn on my current canopy.

I'm just curious if they make a 190 x-braced canopy (pros & cons) because I'm all about efficiency

They don't. Largest I know of that is manufactured on a regular basis is a 120.

The whole deal with the small canopies is that they are fast and you can do a lot with them. Swooping comes down to extending the exciting fun flying part down close to the ground where you can realize what is happening. Everything just happens really fast and it is pretty exciting. It forces you to stay on your toes and you have to know a lot about how canopies work and how to make judgments about what is about to happen next.

They aren't for the faint of heart or those who need time to make a decision. Most of the replies on this thread are pointing out that it's really easy to get hurt on small canopies and that is certainly true. You need to have a solid base of canopy flight experience before you even think of jumping a canopy that is small like that. If you don't, you end up getting hurt and it just costs you time that you could have been having fun.

People jump them for the thrill of it all.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[gearless_chris 1]

120 is the biggest. I talked to George at precision when I ordered my new rig, he said that a 135 Xbrace would be like driving a Ferrarri downtown and he wouldn't make that size anymore. I take that back, he said he would but minimun weight is 300lbs. and that I should get a 118 instead. Maybe for the next canopy.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[pilot-one 0]

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Easy question. Just browse the "Incidents" forum.

Ummmm....really?

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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Im wondering what its actually like to fly a Velo 90 or Xaos or one of these 'hankerchiefs' as I sometimes call them!!!

I have limited experiance, and I dont fly a tiny parachute, but I remember getting this comparison from my instructors:

Large student canopies = school bus or station wagon
Medium (135-170, tapered) average canopies = ford mustang
Sub 100 Xbraced canopies = Lamborghini diablo

Fittingly enough, seeing that you can kill yourself in a station wagon, but its a lot easier to do in the Lamborghini

Thoughts?

[pchapman 261]

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What is a cross braced canopy (ala Velo) and why are they so notorious to fly?

What was your first jump on a sub 100sqft canopy like?

What the heck, I'll bite.

Compared to "normal" canopies of moderate size, small crossbraced canopies are:
a) fast in forward speed
b) drop out of the sky with a high descent rate
c) are sensitive on the toggles and
d) easily dive steeply in turns

(Opening also can be worse, in that when something goes wrong, the malfunction is likely to be more violent , disorienting, and fast descending.)

For a small crossbrace, you have to have the awareness and knowledge to quickly plan ahead, because you're dropping out of the sky quickly, and will do so even faster as soon as you start turning to set up a landing approach.

I recall my first crossbrace jumps on an FX 88 when I was used to Stiletto 120's and the like. As soon as I popped the brakes after opening it felt like the floor had dropped out, as the canopy accelerated forwards and downwards. The wind noise was far more than I was accustomed to, so I was thinking I just about had to start wearing earplugs just for the canopy ride...

On landing I had to accurately go through the flare motion to get rid of the massive rate of descent to level out at the right height just above the ground, a job that was a little tricky the first few times. It didn't help that compared to many canopies at the time (~2002), a lot more toggle motion was needed to get that flare happening, so there was a tendency to get caught by not bringing the toggles down far & fast enough. The sensitivity of the toggles resulted in some see-sawing on the toggles on a couple landings - I had to learn to focus on keeping the toggles absolutely even if I wasn't to dive off to the side while planing out.

All in all stuff just happens really fast and unless you know what you're doing, you're going to hit the ground really fast...

[humanflite 0]

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What is a cross braced canopy (ala Velo) and why are they so notorious to fly?

What was your first jump on a sub 100sqft canopy like?

What the heck, I'll bite.

Compared to "normal" canopies of moderate size, small crossbraced canopies are:
a) fast in forward speed
b) drop out of the sky with a high descent rate
c) are sensitive on the toggles and
d) easily dive steeply in turns

(Opening also can be worse, in that when something goes wrong, the malfunction is likely to be more violent , disorienting, and fast descending.)

For a small crossbrace, you have to have the awareness and knowledge to quickly plan ahead, because you're dropping out of the sky quickly, and will do so even faster as soon as you start turning to set up a landing approach.

I recall my first crossbrace jumps on an FX 88 when I was used to Stiletto 120's and the like. As soon as I popped the brakes after opening it felt like the floor had dropped out, as the canopy accelerated forwards and downwards. The wind noise was far more than I was accustomed to, so I was thinking I just about had to start wearing earplugs just for the canopy ride...

On landing I had to accurately go through the flare motion to get rid of the massive rate of descent to level out at the right height just above the ground, a job that was a little tricky the first few times. It didn't help that compared to many canopies at the time (~2002), a lot more toggle motion was needed to get that flare happening, so there was a tendency to get caught by not bringing the toggles down far & fast enough. The sensitivity of the toggles resulted in some see-sawing on the toggles on a couple landings - I had to learn to focus on keeping the toggles absolutely even if I wasn't to dive off to the side while planing out.

All in all stuff just happens really fast and unless you know what you're doing, you're going to hit the ground really fast...

Lol
Thanks for biting! Very insightful info and just what I was looking for..

Thanks also to all others who have replied.

To the poster who made the supercar vs bus analogy...i can see where your instructor was coming from..but its possible for a rubbish driver to drive a diablo (slowly) and not crash and burn.

From what I have seen of videod landings of these ultra small canopies...you have to be a REALLY competent canopy pilot to even land the thing safely.
There doesnt appear to be any half measures, or 'out routes' so to speak.

Apart from the critical, dont turn too low, and if you do, know precisely what your doing and do it right...first time, every time

[AggieDave 6]

High performance canopies are incredibly fun; however, you really have to be 100% every single time you deploy. If you're not its very easy to hurt yourself, kill yourself, hurt another jumper or kill another jumper.

I jump a highly loaded velo because I love really enjoy competitive swooping. If I didn't then I would upsize and take the RDS off. In fact I'm wanting to put together a second rig next season. I want to put a Katana 150 in it. Its loaded high enough to be really sporty, but isn't as fast and as aggressive as my competition rig. That will make life easier for sport jumping.

The first time you deploy a smallish high performance canopy it will make your hands shake. Especially after you release the brakes.

What makes all of this so much fun is having learned how to fly a high performance canopy correctly. If you're jumping a canopy but can't fly it, then its nothing but embarrassing and incredibly dangerous.

You can fly a highly loaded high performance canopy. Its not incredibly hard and there's no voodoo black magic. It just takes dedicated jumps and proper learning. You get that by going slow with your canopy progression and wingloadings. You get that by building your canopy skills foundation properly. That all starts with basic canopy control, flying a solid landing pattern and using that landing pattern to build really good accuracy skills. This is all before you ever touch a front riser for your turn to landing.

Get a good canopy coach and start learning. Expect to spend a minimum of 500 jumps getting the basics down, and another 500 jumps learning how to refine those skills into a decent swoop. Then expect to spend the rest of your skydiving career to turn all of that into the ability to be a consistent and safe swooper.

You should decent percentage of your jumps deploying at altitude right out of the door. Then spend another large chunk of your jumps doing hop-n-pops from 4-5k. Its like any other discipline in skydiving. It takes dedicated jumps and good coaching.

Good luck, be safe, have fun and never place other jumpers in danger by your canopy flight.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[humanflite 0]

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High performance canopies are incredibly fun; however, you really have to be 100% every single time you deploy. If you're not its very easy to hurt yourself, kill yourself, hurt another jumper or kill another jumper.

I jump a highly loaded velo because I love really enjoy competitive swooping. If I didn't then I would upsize and take the RDS off. In fact I'm wanting to put together a second rig next season. I want to put a Katana 150 in it. Its loaded high enough to be really sporty, but isn't as fast and as aggressive as my competition rig. That will make life easier for sport jumping.

The first time you deploy a smallish high performance canopy it will make your hands shake. Especially after you release the brakes.

What makes all of this so much fun is having learned how to fly a high performance canopy correctly. If you're jumping a canopy but can't fly it, then its nothing but embarrassing and incredibly dangerous.

You can fly a highly loaded high performance canopy. Its not incredibly hard and there's no voodoo black magic. It just takes dedicated jumps and proper learning. You get that by going slow with your canopy progression and wingloadings. You get that by building your canopy skills foundation properly. That all starts with basic canopy control, flying a solid landing pattern and using that landing pattern to build really good accuracy skills. This is all before you ever touch a front riser for your turn to landing.

Get a good canopy coach and start learning. Expect to spend a minimum of 500 jumps getting the basics down, and another 500 jumps learning how to refine those skills into a decent swoop. Then expect to spend the rest of your skydiving career to turn all of that into the ability to be a consistent and safe swooper.

You should decent percentage of your jumps deploying at altitude right out of the door. Then spend another large chunk of your jumps doing hop-n-pops from 4-5k. Its like any other discipline in skydiving. It takes dedicated jumps and good coaching.

Good luck, be safe, have fun and never place other jumpers in danger by your canopy flight.

Aggiedave

Thanks a lot for this great post
Swooping is a good way off on my radar but I would like to be able to get there one day.

Thats a great suggestion about deploying high for a good percentage of jumps and a good amount of hop and pops.
It will give me much more 'safe' up high flying time and as soon as I am able I think I will start on that route.

One question I meant to ask was what is it like to land a Velo or similiar?

I mean, you say the first time you unstow the brakes on this type of canopy its like 'holy sh*t' but whats it like coming into land?
except a LOT faster!

Do they hold a flare well? I imagine they are easy to stall right?
Do you start the first stage of the flare earlier than you would on say a 150 or 170?
Just curious!

[AggieDave 6]

They flare the same as any other canopy, its not really any easier to stall then any other canopy. The flare is a little higher on a straight in then other canopies I've jumped, but that's more about the canopy's design and the speed due to the wingloading. It even lands really well straight in.

Coming in for landing, even straight in, the canopy flat out drops out of the sky. Forward speed is high, but the vertical decent is incredibly fast as well.

Basically its really hard to compare to a typical skydiving canopy (read 150-210sq ft range). Its just apples and oranges. The Katana 170 flies pretty similarly to a Velo, but even then the wingloadings aren't typically that close. So it relates but it isn't a direct comparison.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wetswooper 0]

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Large student canopies = school bus or station wagon
Medium (135-170, tapered) average canopies = ford mustang
Sub 100 Xbraced canopies = Lamborghini diablo

Fittingly enough, seeing that you can kill yourself in a station wagon, but its a lot easier to do in the Lamborghini

Thoughts?

Even with different XB canopies there are huge differences. And the range of different wingloadings is big. Someone flying a xaos21 (one of the xb canopies which is considered "a bit more relaxed") at 1,8 is under a totally different wing than someone flying "new?" velocity or all sail JVX with RDS system (the most popular competition class wings) at more than 2,5.

With the most radical competition swoop machines, I'd rather compare those to nascar, indy or formula1 cars.
My mom can drive a lamborghini, but
you can't manage to make a full lap with a formula1 car if you aren't a skilled racecar driver, propably you can't even get it going.

That's the thing with fast XB canopies....with little experience, there's almost no change that you could make it to the ground in one piece with no injuries.
With some experience, you sure....MAYBE can land the canopy safely in good conditions, but what's the reason to fly such wing if you don't have the skills to take the traction control off. That's like buying a ultimate supercar for driving around the city 30 mph, struggling to keep it going, very careful with the throttle not get out of control and trying not to crash anything.

A way too many skydivers do that anyway....never swooping, having problems to do stand up landings, and still flying a velocity. That's like crashing your lamborghini to a lamppost every now and then when cruising in the city..cool hah?

[Baksteen 84]

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Someone flying a xaos21 (one of the xb canopies which is considered "a bit more relaxed") at 1,8 is under a totally different wing than someone flying "new?" velocity or all sail JVX with RDS system (the most popular competition class wings) at more than 2,5.

Except the bit about wingloading I totally do not understand this sentence.

What is a JVX, all sail, "new?" velocity, and RDS system?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[jakee 1,254]

JVX = A 27cell crossbraced canopy from Daedalus. Successor to the VX.

All sail = made entirely from thicker, stiffer, more durable sail material instead of normal ZP.

New Velocity = Well, the new, updated Velocity that PD are making noises about (and that their comp team is already flying?).

RDS = Removable deployment system. Slider and often d-bag/pilot chute that can be removed under canopy to reduce drag.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AggieDave 6]

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JVX = A 27cell crossbraced canopy from Daedalus. Successor to the VX.

Not the successor, but a variation of the VX design pushed by Jim Slaton. Definitely not the most popular competition wing being flown.

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All sail = made entirely from thicker, stiffer, more durable sail material instead of normal ZP.

Not more durable. Many of the pro swoopers who bought one two and three years ago have retired the canopy, going back to a modified ZP built canopy of their choosing (typically what they were flying before). Why? Because the sail fabric was breaking down in 500-ish jumps. The durability figures put forth did not factor the openings and were determined by UV exposure only.

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New Velocity = Well, the new, updated Velocity that PD are making noises about (and that their comp team is already flying?).

A couple of the comp teams and a couple of select top level pros not on teams have been jumping them off and on for the last two years or so. Then again those guys (and gals) could fly a bedsheet sewn to a tarp and get a really good swoop.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[MarkM 0]

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Never in the field of human endeavour have so many people hurt themselves for so little reason.

People could say that about skydiving in the early 90's before swooping was even going on.

I think the yearly death rate in skydiving has been pretty steady over the last 20 years. It's just that today people are more likely to get hurt under canopy than anything else, swooping or not.

But if we're going to trash that aspect of the sport, then we might as well trash the entire sport altogether and just all take up golf and bowling.

[virgin-burner 1]

very true statement!

just overheard some conversation at the dropzone yesterday, watching our swoopers.. we just walked to the plane, and one guy goes: "man, all that RISK they're taking!". i said, "well, you better skip out on entering that plane then!" actually coming from the scariest guy at the dropzone..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[chrismgtis 0]

Crap. I thought you were going to ask what a high performance canopy was like. That would be a cool question. I've never really heard anything other than scary, dangerous and stupid with anything less than a couple thousand skydives.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[RMURRAY 1]

I just noticed that the JVX all sail is using an updated more durable material. I have not noticed a problem with mine but then again I don't jump over a pond or in desert conditions. My opinion only - NZ Aerosport is the technology leader and PD follows. Here is a note from canopypiloting dot com........

"The new sail material is more durable, allowing for better resistance to the elements like water, sand and dirt. We only offer one line trim with the JVX now which we consider the competition trim. We are always improving the design so it is possible that the JVX you buy today could have a slightly different trim from last year"