tdog 0 #1 June 2, 2008 I used to joke I wanted the bumper sticker: Skydiving: Burning Fossil Fuels for the Fun of It. Well, my home DZ (mid sized otter DZ) just increased the price to $27 a jump. When I started in 2004, prices were $22. I don't see the fuel bills, so I have to trust the DZ when they say it was because fuel prices skyrocketed last week... But we already had two price increases in the last year... So... It's only two bucks... But I used to say $100 would get you about 5 jumps and entertain you for a day, cheaper than golf. Now $100 does not get you 4 jumps... On top of that, I hear people saying, "I am not driving to the DZ today because it is to expensive to drive my car." It costs me $20 just to get to the DZ round trip. Yesterday I stayed home and got home improvement jobs done, and I have to admit, it was because I needed to spend money on a leaky shower instead of jump tickets, whereas a year ago when tickets were $23 a slot and I could get to the DZ for $10 round trip - I could have done both for the same price. The question becomes, with gas prices increasing, not decreasing - will our sport start to become a dinosaur, and/or just for the uber elite? I mean - I don't wakeboard anymore because filling my dad's boat up with gas went from $50 to $125 for just above an hour's entertainment, and I just don't enjoy it enough to spend $125. There has gotta be a lot of people, or at least some people, in skydiving who just don't enjoy it enough for $X per jump and will soon walk away... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #2 June 2, 2008 that's soon going to be double the cost of jumping at Lodi.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #3 June 2, 2008 Dude, you don't know how good you have it - 25 dollars would get you only to 6k in the netherlands. Expect to pay 25 euros to full altitude (that's 38 dollars to get to 12k) Feeling better now? "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kefran 0 #5 June 2, 2008 i wish we could have our slots for 27$ here in Canada. we are actually at 36$ for 13000 ... so enjoy your DZ man ! (at least till you can !) -------------------------------------------------- I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #6 June 2, 2008 £19 for 13+k at my DZ in the UK (and many others are more expensive), so yeah, that's approaching $38 a lift. Though jump ticket prices have increased a little here in the last year I'm not sure if they've gone up to match the price of oil. If fuel costs continue to increase then I'm really worried about seeing a big ticket hike sometime soon... Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #7 June 2, 2008 Last summer I'd be more likely to drive down and back two days on a single weekend. This year, hells no. I'll plan ahead (leave the cats enough food and bring a change of clothes) and stay with friends who live much closer to the DZ (and we'll leave one car at the DZ and carpool). It's 180 miles round trip to the DZ. In my car at highway speeds that's about $25-28, just over the cost of a jump ticket (which is holding steady at $23 for now). I don't need to do that twice in one weekend. I also have the option of taking a ferry for part of my commute to the DZ. Taking the ferry shaves off half the one-way mileage, but adds in $14.45 for the ferry. Winds up costing me more and taking more time, but the overall environmental impact is less (and if I'm coming back on Sunday nights I avoid the hassle factor of sitting in traffic with everyone else coming back from their weekends on the coast) and can instead enjoy a nice, relaxing boat ride."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #8 June 2, 2008 QuoteI mean - I don't wakeboard anymore because filling my dad's boat up with gas went from $50 to $125 for just above an hour's entertainment, *** Must be a helluva boat to burn $125 worth of gas in an hr. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #9 June 2, 2008 QuoteQuote *** Must be a helluva boat to burn $125 worth of gas in an hr. The fuel at the docks is typically $1.50 more than on the street. 17 gal/hr * $6 = $102. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #10 June 2, 2008 Quote i wish we could have our slots for 27$ here in Canada. we are actually at 36$ for 13000 ... so enjoy your DZ man ! (at least till you can !) It appears the "foreign invasion" has invaded this thread and burst my ethnocentric view of the world, although my original post was intended for the USA economy/DZ customers.I could mention that exchange rates, cost of living, and mean salary change the "value" of tickets outside of one's own home country... But instead, I will use your guy's examples to make my point. How many Eloy/Perris/Zhills DZs exist outside of the USA, where 2 otters will fly 25 loads a day full of fun jumpers? Or even the mid sized DZs that keep 1.5 turbines flying? It is my IMPRESSION from talking to friends that the DZs outside of the USA, in Europe and Canada, are not as busy, don't have as many turbines, etc... So, maybe you guys proved my point, as our jump prices escalate here, not only will our DZs become smaller, but the foreigners who came here to train for the cheaper tickets will no longer come, thus hit the US DZs with a "double whammy". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #11 June 2, 2008 >will our sport start to become a dinosaur, and/or just for the uber elite? I've heard this half a dozen times since I started in '91. When I started a brand new container was $800, reserve $500 and a good main was $700. (A speedy PD170!) No one used AAD's because, as we all knew, those things would kill you. Frap hats and EFS suits ruled the day, and you could get a Phoenix suit for $80 (which, BTW, was a better-built suit than most suits today.) No booties, comp grips or spandex of course. Jumps were $13 to 13,500 at the Ranch. When ZP canopies started getting into the $1200 range, and cypreses became the rule rather than the exception, people started saying "newbies won't be able to afford gear any more! Is the future going to be dominated by rich snobs buying neon pink gear?" Same thing happened when tunnels became common about 5 years ago. What was going to happen to RW? Would only rich teams be able to train? Would "regular" skydivers be shunned because they couldn't afford 16 hours of tunnel time a weekend? And I look at other sports. Automotive racing for example. Look how much fuel for them costs. Tires, crew, engines - it can cost a lot of money to keep even a semi-pro car on the track. But that sport is far, far larger than skydiving; people are willing to spend the money. So I don't think this will make our sport a dinosaur any more than $2000 rigs, $1200 AAD's or wind tunnels did. I think it will change; look for different aircraft using different engines to make an appearance, and look for more emphasis on canopy flight, lower exit altitudes (already many teams train from 10,500) and tunnel usage for training. But the sport has changed before and we're still here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #12 June 2, 2008 Quote look for more emphasis on canopy flight, lower exit altitudes (already many teams train from 10,500) and tunnel usage for training. But the sport has changed before and we're still here. 10-way speed! a good 10-way team can practice from 6,000 and still break off at 4.5k.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #13 June 2, 2008 Quote It appears the "foreign invasion" has invaded this thread and burst my ethnocentric view of the world, although my original post was intended for the USA economy/DZ customers.I could mention that exchange rates, cost of living, and mean salary change the "value" of tickets outside of one's own home country... $30 to 11K at current exchange rates... in a Cessna. And I think the value of that ticket is worth a lot more here... in a largely poor country, this is already something of an "elite" sport. Oh, and I'm not changing my sig line just because of this thread Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VTmotoMike08 0 #14 June 3, 2008 Damn, $27 per jump is the highest I have ever seen. Is it even that high in California where the fuel standards are higher? It is, however, worth noting a few facts when talking about prices at Mile HI. 1) $2 of every jump (student and experienced) is donated to a charity. Tdog, I know you know this, and everyone else can do a search. Its been discussed at length. 2) There is no other turbine DZ (or at least a good one) within hundreds of miles. I think there is currently a C-206 in CO Springs, but that does not cut it for most jumpers. There are a small handful of skyride DZs with cessnas that no upjumpers take seriously. Dare I say there is not another otter DZ within 400 miles??? (not a checked fact, but my estimate.) Management has up jumpers by the cojones and they know it. I have seen mile hi have over 100 tandems on a good Saturday. I have also seen 7-10 student FJCs. Often (when I jumped there), the king air ran with only tandems and several open seats that could be filled with upjumpers. With all these factors (especially the huge student numbers), I bet they could easily afford to still have those $22 jumps if they canned that silly donation also. Stated as objectively as I can, while still stating facts. Flame proof shied, activated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cocheese 0 #15 June 3, 2008 I love when a slight change can weed out those who don't know what they want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #16 June 3, 2008 10-way speed! a good 10-way team can practice from 6,000 and still break off at 4.5k.Just like CReW baby! and sometimes I use them cRew tickets for wingsuits and really show em what I got... like an extra 20 seconds compared to the 12k club from half the altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites auburnguy 0 #17 June 3, 2008 http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html How many lbs or gallons does an otter burn on a load to 13k? (assuming 20 people taking off from sea level)."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LongWayToFall 0 #18 June 3, 2008 I wonder when it will be cheaper to jump from balloons, or maybe a big antenna? Imagine a tandem base....... ugly. I'm glad a nearby dz has $13 tickets to 13.5k when you buy in bulk. Cheap jumps are the shiz. $5 hop and pops are nice too. Hey, for $27 I could do a full altitude jump, and two hop and pops with enough left over to buy a 40oz and a candy bar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #19 June 3, 2008 Quote that silly donation I have no interest in Mile high and I know noone from that DZ. However, donating $2 per jump ticket to charity strikes me as extremely clever PR. How many jumps are made at MH annually? Must be quite a substantial donation, which is an investment in public goodwill."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #20 June 3, 2008 >How many lbs or gallons does an otter burn on a load to 13k? Per Bryan Burke, it is approximately 25 gal per load for a full load to 12,500. So about one gallon per jumper per load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #21 June 3, 2008 Fuel prices at our airport went up 20 cents this week for Jet A which was already up 30 cents from last year. 100LL is almost over $5 a gallon as well. If gas prices go up, so will lift ticket costs. Both of the bigger DZs outside chicago are up to $25 a ticket. They were already up to $24 a slot at the start of this year. The dz I jump at is smaller and has been doing well this year in the tandem department and we are trying to resist raising our prices for a second time this year. We are still at $23 a slot, but if Jet A goes up much more, that's gonna have to change. It is what it is, ya know? If you are doing the math on how much a slot should cost, often forgotten things are sales tax, pilot pay and credit card fees. Also, there is an hourly cost even if the DZ owns the plane. It is the cost of maintenance / hours flown before you have to do it.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #22 June 3, 2008 Hah. I'm already paying $35 per jump in Canada. Japanese pay $85 per jump and UK pays $55 per jump. I opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps and spend more on tunnel time at $3-4 per minute (when doing 4-way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #23 June 3, 2008 QuoteI opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps Exactly my point... Fewer jumps. The the DZs have less loads, increasing overhead per load, driving costs up even more, not being able to afford the larger planes when they can't be filled... Then gear manufactures have less sales as no one needs back-to-back rigs or two rigs for training... Nor do skydivers rigs wear out as quickly, so sales volume goes down in gear sales... So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Answer me this? How many DZs are in Canada (at $35 per jump) with two or three twin otters running all day long? How many have one otter that will fly 25 full loads a day? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #24 June 3, 2008 >So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Except for these guys: http://www.centurion-engines.com/ http://www.deltahawkengines.com/ There are a lot of options here. Many alternate-fuel technologies aren't useful for general aviation aircraft because they require long range and long duration low temperature compatibility. Drop zones don't have these limitations. A system that allows only one climb to 12,500 before refueling/recharging is no problem. The problem is that skydiving traditionally gets the hand-me-downs from other GA activites/customers. (For example, we are jumping Caravans mainly because of Fedex.) So there has to be some other impetus for development of these new technologies. Fortunately, high fuel prices will help make this happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #25 June 3, 2008 QuoteQuoteI opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps Exactly my point... Fewer jumps. The the DZs have less loads, increasing overhead per load, driving costs up even more, not being able to afford the larger planes when they can't be filled... Then gear manufactures have less sales as no one needs back-to-back rigs or two rigs for training... Nor do skydivers rigs wear out as quickly, so sales volume goes down in gear sales... So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Answer me this? How many DZs are in Canada (at $35 per jump) with two or three twin otters running all day long? How many have one otter that will fly 25 full loads a day? How many DZs are in Canada with temperature and cloud coverage that let people jump comfortably year round? Don't tell the Nortwesterners but you can count on blue skies year round at Mile Hi. In ten years I never saw a month without one weekend over 40 degrees on the ground (it's a dry cold). Empuria Brava in Spain with better weather claimed 135,000 jumps annually while Frank only admits to 35,000 at Mile Hi. That's in spite of ~$36 jump tickets at current prices, higher taxes, and lower wages. I'd bet weather has more to do with the Canadian skydiving situation. In Colorado, people jumped about as much at Brush as they did in Longmont even though we were spending $25 more in gas to get there when jump tickets were only a couple buckets cheaper at Mile Hi. Think of it as a land premium. Most DZs "near" urban areas are an hour away (or worse). The only time it took me anywhere close to that getting to Mile Hi was when I put my rig and case of beer on a BOB Yak trailer and rode my bicycle out. At a moderate 20 jumps per month, the $4-5 a jump more you spend to jump near Boulder or Denver is nothing compared to what you're spending to live there versus most other places (California obviously excepted). And $6*20 jumps/month over five years isn't that bad compared to the other price increases we're facing. My health insurance went up $100/month just this year; last apartment rent increased > $200/month in less than a year; my town house in Boulder costs its current owner over $500/month more than it would have run me 5 years before that with a 30 year loan; etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
tdog 0 #9 June 2, 2008 QuoteQuote *** Must be a helluva boat to burn $125 worth of gas in an hr. The fuel at the docks is typically $1.50 more than on the street. 17 gal/hr * $6 = $102. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #10 June 2, 2008 Quote i wish we could have our slots for 27$ here in Canada. we are actually at 36$ for 13000 ... so enjoy your DZ man ! (at least till you can !) It appears the "foreign invasion" has invaded this thread and burst my ethnocentric view of the world, although my original post was intended for the USA economy/DZ customers.I could mention that exchange rates, cost of living, and mean salary change the "value" of tickets outside of one's own home country... But instead, I will use your guy's examples to make my point. How many Eloy/Perris/Zhills DZs exist outside of the USA, where 2 otters will fly 25 loads a day full of fun jumpers? Or even the mid sized DZs that keep 1.5 turbines flying? It is my IMPRESSION from talking to friends that the DZs outside of the USA, in Europe and Canada, are not as busy, don't have as many turbines, etc... So, maybe you guys proved my point, as our jump prices escalate here, not only will our DZs become smaller, but the foreigners who came here to train for the cheaper tickets will no longer come, thus hit the US DZs with a "double whammy". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #11 June 2, 2008 >will our sport start to become a dinosaur, and/or just for the uber elite? I've heard this half a dozen times since I started in '91. When I started a brand new container was $800, reserve $500 and a good main was $700. (A speedy PD170!) No one used AAD's because, as we all knew, those things would kill you. Frap hats and EFS suits ruled the day, and you could get a Phoenix suit for $80 (which, BTW, was a better-built suit than most suits today.) No booties, comp grips or spandex of course. Jumps were $13 to 13,500 at the Ranch. When ZP canopies started getting into the $1200 range, and cypreses became the rule rather than the exception, people started saying "newbies won't be able to afford gear any more! Is the future going to be dominated by rich snobs buying neon pink gear?" Same thing happened when tunnels became common about 5 years ago. What was going to happen to RW? Would only rich teams be able to train? Would "regular" skydivers be shunned because they couldn't afford 16 hours of tunnel time a weekend? And I look at other sports. Automotive racing for example. Look how much fuel for them costs. Tires, crew, engines - it can cost a lot of money to keep even a semi-pro car on the track. But that sport is far, far larger than skydiving; people are willing to spend the money. So I don't think this will make our sport a dinosaur any more than $2000 rigs, $1200 AAD's or wind tunnels did. I think it will change; look for different aircraft using different engines to make an appearance, and look for more emphasis on canopy flight, lower exit altitudes (already many teams train from 10,500) and tunnel usage for training. But the sport has changed before and we're still here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #12 June 2, 2008 Quote look for more emphasis on canopy flight, lower exit altitudes (already many teams train from 10,500) and tunnel usage for training. But the sport has changed before and we're still here. 10-way speed! a good 10-way team can practice from 6,000 and still break off at 4.5k.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #13 June 2, 2008 Quote It appears the "foreign invasion" has invaded this thread and burst my ethnocentric view of the world, although my original post was intended for the USA economy/DZ customers.I could mention that exchange rates, cost of living, and mean salary change the "value" of tickets outside of one's own home country... $30 to 11K at current exchange rates... in a Cessna. And I think the value of that ticket is worth a lot more here... in a largely poor country, this is already something of an "elite" sport. Oh, and I'm not changing my sig line just because of this thread Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VTmotoMike08 0 #14 June 3, 2008 Damn, $27 per jump is the highest I have ever seen. Is it even that high in California where the fuel standards are higher? It is, however, worth noting a few facts when talking about prices at Mile HI. 1) $2 of every jump (student and experienced) is donated to a charity. Tdog, I know you know this, and everyone else can do a search. Its been discussed at length. 2) There is no other turbine DZ (or at least a good one) within hundreds of miles. I think there is currently a C-206 in CO Springs, but that does not cut it for most jumpers. There are a small handful of skyride DZs with cessnas that no upjumpers take seriously. Dare I say there is not another otter DZ within 400 miles??? (not a checked fact, but my estimate.) Management has up jumpers by the cojones and they know it. I have seen mile hi have over 100 tandems on a good Saturday. I have also seen 7-10 student FJCs. Often (when I jumped there), the king air ran with only tandems and several open seats that could be filled with upjumpers. With all these factors (especially the huge student numbers), I bet they could easily afford to still have those $22 jumps if they canned that silly donation also. Stated as objectively as I can, while still stating facts. Flame proof shied, activated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cocheese 0 #15 June 3, 2008 I love when a slight change can weed out those who don't know what they want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #16 June 3, 2008 10-way speed! a good 10-way team can practice from 6,000 and still break off at 4.5k.Just like CReW baby! and sometimes I use them cRew tickets for wingsuits and really show em what I got... like an extra 20 seconds compared to the 12k club from half the altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites auburnguy 0 #17 June 3, 2008 http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html How many lbs or gallons does an otter burn on a load to 13k? (assuming 20 people taking off from sea level)."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LongWayToFall 0 #18 June 3, 2008 I wonder when it will be cheaper to jump from balloons, or maybe a big antenna? Imagine a tandem base....... ugly. I'm glad a nearby dz has $13 tickets to 13.5k when you buy in bulk. Cheap jumps are the shiz. $5 hop and pops are nice too. Hey, for $27 I could do a full altitude jump, and two hop and pops with enough left over to buy a 40oz and a candy bar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #19 June 3, 2008 Quote that silly donation I have no interest in Mile high and I know noone from that DZ. However, donating $2 per jump ticket to charity strikes me as extremely clever PR. How many jumps are made at MH annually? Must be quite a substantial donation, which is an investment in public goodwill."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #20 June 3, 2008 >How many lbs or gallons does an otter burn on a load to 13k? Per Bryan Burke, it is approximately 25 gal per load for a full load to 12,500. So about one gallon per jumper per load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #21 June 3, 2008 Fuel prices at our airport went up 20 cents this week for Jet A which was already up 30 cents from last year. 100LL is almost over $5 a gallon as well. If gas prices go up, so will lift ticket costs. Both of the bigger DZs outside chicago are up to $25 a ticket. They were already up to $24 a slot at the start of this year. The dz I jump at is smaller and has been doing well this year in the tandem department and we are trying to resist raising our prices for a second time this year. We are still at $23 a slot, but if Jet A goes up much more, that's gonna have to change. It is what it is, ya know? If you are doing the math on how much a slot should cost, often forgotten things are sales tax, pilot pay and credit card fees. Also, there is an hourly cost even if the DZ owns the plane. It is the cost of maintenance / hours flown before you have to do it.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #22 June 3, 2008 Hah. I'm already paying $35 per jump in Canada. Japanese pay $85 per jump and UK pays $55 per jump. I opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps and spend more on tunnel time at $3-4 per minute (when doing 4-way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #23 June 3, 2008 QuoteI opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps Exactly my point... Fewer jumps. The the DZs have less loads, increasing overhead per load, driving costs up even more, not being able to afford the larger planes when they can't be filled... Then gear manufactures have less sales as no one needs back-to-back rigs or two rigs for training... Nor do skydivers rigs wear out as quickly, so sales volume goes down in gear sales... So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Answer me this? How many DZs are in Canada (at $35 per jump) with two or three twin otters running all day long? How many have one otter that will fly 25 full loads a day? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #24 June 3, 2008 >So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Except for these guys: http://www.centurion-engines.com/ http://www.deltahawkengines.com/ There are a lot of options here. Many alternate-fuel technologies aren't useful for general aviation aircraft because they require long range and long duration low temperature compatibility. Drop zones don't have these limitations. A system that allows only one climb to 12,500 before refueling/recharging is no problem. The problem is that skydiving traditionally gets the hand-me-downs from other GA activites/customers. (For example, we are jumping Caravans mainly because of Fedex.) So there has to be some other impetus for development of these new technologies. Fortunately, high fuel prices will help make this happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #25 June 3, 2008 QuoteQuoteI opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps Exactly my point... Fewer jumps. The the DZs have less loads, increasing overhead per load, driving costs up even more, not being able to afford the larger planes when they can't be filled... Then gear manufactures have less sales as no one needs back-to-back rigs or two rigs for training... Nor do skydivers rigs wear out as quickly, so sales volume goes down in gear sales... So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Answer me this? How many DZs are in Canada (at $35 per jump) with two or three twin otters running all day long? How many have one otter that will fly 25 full loads a day? How many DZs are in Canada with temperature and cloud coverage that let people jump comfortably year round? Don't tell the Nortwesterners but you can count on blue skies year round at Mile Hi. In ten years I never saw a month without one weekend over 40 degrees on the ground (it's a dry cold). Empuria Brava in Spain with better weather claimed 135,000 jumps annually while Frank only admits to 35,000 at Mile Hi. That's in spite of ~$36 jump tickets at current prices, higher taxes, and lower wages. I'd bet weather has more to do with the Canadian skydiving situation. In Colorado, people jumped about as much at Brush as they did in Longmont even though we were spending $25 more in gas to get there when jump tickets were only a couple buckets cheaper at Mile Hi. Think of it as a land premium. Most DZs "near" urban areas are an hour away (or worse). The only time it took me anywhere close to that getting to Mile Hi was when I put my rig and case of beer on a BOB Yak trailer and rode my bicycle out. At a moderate 20 jumps per month, the $4-5 a jump more you spend to jump near Boulder or Denver is nothing compared to what you're spending to live there versus most other places (California obviously excepted). And $6*20 jumps/month over five years isn't that bad compared to the other price increases we're facing. My health insurance went up $100/month just this year; last apartment rent increased > $200/month in less than a year; my town house in Boulder costs its current owner over $500/month more than it would have run me 5 years before that with a 30 year loan; etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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tdog 0 #10 June 2, 2008 Quote i wish we could have our slots for 27$ here in Canada. we are actually at 36$ for 13000 ... so enjoy your DZ man ! (at least till you can !) It appears the "foreign invasion" has invaded this thread and burst my ethnocentric view of the world, although my original post was intended for the USA economy/DZ customers.I could mention that exchange rates, cost of living, and mean salary change the "value" of tickets outside of one's own home country... But instead, I will use your guy's examples to make my point. How many Eloy/Perris/Zhills DZs exist outside of the USA, where 2 otters will fly 25 loads a day full of fun jumpers? Or even the mid sized DZs that keep 1.5 turbines flying? It is my IMPRESSION from talking to friends that the DZs outside of the USA, in Europe and Canada, are not as busy, don't have as many turbines, etc... So, maybe you guys proved my point, as our jump prices escalate here, not only will our DZs become smaller, but the foreigners who came here to train for the cheaper tickets will no longer come, thus hit the US DZs with a "double whammy". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #11 June 2, 2008 >will our sport start to become a dinosaur, and/or just for the uber elite? I've heard this half a dozen times since I started in '91. When I started a brand new container was $800, reserve $500 and a good main was $700. (A speedy PD170!) No one used AAD's because, as we all knew, those things would kill you. Frap hats and EFS suits ruled the day, and you could get a Phoenix suit for $80 (which, BTW, was a better-built suit than most suits today.) No booties, comp grips or spandex of course. Jumps were $13 to 13,500 at the Ranch. When ZP canopies started getting into the $1200 range, and cypreses became the rule rather than the exception, people started saying "newbies won't be able to afford gear any more! Is the future going to be dominated by rich snobs buying neon pink gear?" Same thing happened when tunnels became common about 5 years ago. What was going to happen to RW? Would only rich teams be able to train? Would "regular" skydivers be shunned because they couldn't afford 16 hours of tunnel time a weekend? And I look at other sports. Automotive racing for example. Look how much fuel for them costs. Tires, crew, engines - it can cost a lot of money to keep even a semi-pro car on the track. But that sport is far, far larger than skydiving; people are willing to spend the money. So I don't think this will make our sport a dinosaur any more than $2000 rigs, $1200 AAD's or wind tunnels did. I think it will change; look for different aircraft using different engines to make an appearance, and look for more emphasis on canopy flight, lower exit altitudes (already many teams train from 10,500) and tunnel usage for training. But the sport has changed before and we're still here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #12 June 2, 2008 Quote look for more emphasis on canopy flight, lower exit altitudes (already many teams train from 10,500) and tunnel usage for training. But the sport has changed before and we're still here. 10-way speed! a good 10-way team can practice from 6,000 and still break off at 4.5k.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #13 June 2, 2008 Quote It appears the "foreign invasion" has invaded this thread and burst my ethnocentric view of the world, although my original post was intended for the USA economy/DZ customers.I could mention that exchange rates, cost of living, and mean salary change the "value" of tickets outside of one's own home country... $30 to 11K at current exchange rates... in a Cessna. And I think the value of that ticket is worth a lot more here... in a largely poor country, this is already something of an "elite" sport. Oh, and I'm not changing my sig line just because of this thread Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #14 June 3, 2008 Damn, $27 per jump is the highest I have ever seen. Is it even that high in California where the fuel standards are higher? It is, however, worth noting a few facts when talking about prices at Mile HI. 1) $2 of every jump (student and experienced) is donated to a charity. Tdog, I know you know this, and everyone else can do a search. Its been discussed at length. 2) There is no other turbine DZ (or at least a good one) within hundreds of miles. I think there is currently a C-206 in CO Springs, but that does not cut it for most jumpers. There are a small handful of skyride DZs with cessnas that no upjumpers take seriously. Dare I say there is not another otter DZ within 400 miles??? (not a checked fact, but my estimate.) Management has up jumpers by the cojones and they know it. I have seen mile hi have over 100 tandems on a good Saturday. I have also seen 7-10 student FJCs. Often (when I jumped there), the king air ran with only tandems and several open seats that could be filled with upjumpers. With all these factors (especially the huge student numbers), I bet they could easily afford to still have those $22 jumps if they canned that silly donation also. Stated as objectively as I can, while still stating facts. Flame proof shied, activated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #15 June 3, 2008 I love when a slight change can weed out those who don't know what they want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #16 June 3, 2008 10-way speed! a good 10-way team can practice from 6,000 and still break off at 4.5k.Just like CReW baby! and sometimes I use them cRew tickets for wingsuits and really show em what I got... like an extra 20 seconds compared to the 12k club from half the altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #17 June 3, 2008 http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html How many lbs or gallons does an otter burn on a load to 13k? (assuming 20 people taking off from sea level)."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #18 June 3, 2008 I wonder when it will be cheaper to jump from balloons, or maybe a big antenna? Imagine a tandem base....... ugly. I'm glad a nearby dz has $13 tickets to 13.5k when you buy in bulk. Cheap jumps are the shiz. $5 hop and pops are nice too. Hey, for $27 I could do a full altitude jump, and two hop and pops with enough left over to buy a 40oz and a candy bar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #19 June 3, 2008 Quote that silly donation I have no interest in Mile high and I know noone from that DZ. However, donating $2 per jump ticket to charity strikes me as extremely clever PR. How many jumps are made at MH annually? Must be quite a substantial donation, which is an investment in public goodwill."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #20 June 3, 2008 >How many lbs or gallons does an otter burn on a load to 13k? Per Bryan Burke, it is approximately 25 gal per load for a full load to 12,500. So about one gallon per jumper per load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #21 June 3, 2008 Fuel prices at our airport went up 20 cents this week for Jet A which was already up 30 cents from last year. 100LL is almost over $5 a gallon as well. If gas prices go up, so will lift ticket costs. Both of the bigger DZs outside chicago are up to $25 a ticket. They were already up to $24 a slot at the start of this year. The dz I jump at is smaller and has been doing well this year in the tandem department and we are trying to resist raising our prices for a second time this year. We are still at $23 a slot, but if Jet A goes up much more, that's gonna have to change. It is what it is, ya know? If you are doing the math on how much a slot should cost, often forgotten things are sales tax, pilot pay and credit card fees. Also, there is an hourly cost even if the DZ owns the plane. It is the cost of maintenance / hours flown before you have to do it.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #22 June 3, 2008 Hah. I'm already paying $35 per jump in Canada. Japanese pay $85 per jump and UK pays $55 per jump. I opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps and spend more on tunnel time at $3-4 per minute (when doing 4-way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #23 June 3, 2008 QuoteI opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps Exactly my point... Fewer jumps. The the DZs have less loads, increasing overhead per load, driving costs up even more, not being able to afford the larger planes when they can't be filled... Then gear manufactures have less sales as no one needs back-to-back rigs or two rigs for training... Nor do skydivers rigs wear out as quickly, so sales volume goes down in gear sales... So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Answer me this? How many DZs are in Canada (at $35 per jump) with two or three twin otters running all day long? How many have one otter that will fly 25 full loads a day? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #24 June 3, 2008 >So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Except for these guys: http://www.centurion-engines.com/ http://www.deltahawkengines.com/ There are a lot of options here. Many alternate-fuel technologies aren't useful for general aviation aircraft because they require long range and long duration low temperature compatibility. Drop zones don't have these limitations. A system that allows only one climb to 12,500 before refueling/recharging is no problem. The problem is that skydiving traditionally gets the hand-me-downs from other GA activites/customers. (For example, we are jumping Caravans mainly because of Fedex.) So there has to be some other impetus for development of these new technologies. Fortunately, high fuel prices will help make this happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #25 June 3, 2008 QuoteQuoteI opt to check "$50 is too much for a jump", since I'm going to keep skydiving even at $50 per jump - but I may make fewer jumps Exactly my point... Fewer jumps. The the DZs have less loads, increasing overhead per load, driving costs up even more, not being able to afford the larger planes when they can't be filled... Then gear manufactures have less sales as no one needs back-to-back rigs or two rigs for training... Nor do skydivers rigs wear out as quickly, so sales volume goes down in gear sales... So as that trickles thru, everyone loses. Answer me this? How many DZs are in Canada (at $35 per jump) with two or three twin otters running all day long? How many have one otter that will fly 25 full loads a day? How many DZs are in Canada with temperature and cloud coverage that let people jump comfortably year round? Don't tell the Nortwesterners but you can count on blue skies year round at Mile Hi. In ten years I never saw a month without one weekend over 40 degrees on the ground (it's a dry cold). Empuria Brava in Spain with better weather claimed 135,000 jumps annually while Frank only admits to 35,000 at Mile Hi. That's in spite of ~$36 jump tickets at current prices, higher taxes, and lower wages. I'd bet weather has more to do with the Canadian skydiving situation. In Colorado, people jumped about as much at Brush as they did in Longmont even though we were spending $25 more in gas to get there when jump tickets were only a couple buckets cheaper at Mile Hi. Think of it as a land premium. Most DZs "near" urban areas are an hour away (or worse). The only time it took me anywhere close to that getting to Mile Hi was when I put my rig and case of beer on a BOB Yak trailer and rode my bicycle out. At a moderate 20 jumps per month, the $4-5 a jump more you spend to jump near Boulder or Denver is nothing compared to what you're spending to live there versus most other places (California obviously excepted). And $6*20 jumps/month over five years isn't that bad compared to the other price increases we're facing. My health insurance went up $100/month just this year; last apartment rent increased > $200/month in less than a year; my town house in Boulder costs its current owner over $500/month more than it would have run me 5 years before that with a 30 year loan; etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
